Hypothetical Scenario: What If ANet Implemented This AI Change Next?

A thought hit me the other day. Imagine if there was another AI change. A change where enemies could choose not to attack through Empathy, or choose not to cast through Backfire, or choose not to do anything through Spiteful Spirit. This kind of change would bring out the true "damned if you do, damned if you don't" nature of these hexes if enemies sometimes played conservatively and waited some of these hexes out. Note how I say sometimes. Also, enemy choices would be partially determined by the strength of the hex cast on them.

All I have to say is, be prepared. It may happen sooner or later.

I've already had AI not casting through backfire, and I thought it was great. Instead of getting their spell out (usually cast it on monk ai) they just dont do anything for 10 seconds.

I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion, but I think they should do this. This goes toward making RP and PvP more similar (which Gaile stated as a goal of Anet), as skills like Empathy are used differently in each (as were AoE skills). Empathy, Backfire, etc are more of a deterrent in PvP against reasonably experienced opponents.

However, I think that there should be a delay after the hex is cast before the monster cancels its skill or stops using them. This is similar to how someone may take a second or two to realize that a hex is on them and stop doing things to hurt themselves.

I also think that there should be some basic decision-making AI in there to simulate the fact that players will sometimes attack or cast a spell even if it *does* hurt them, if end result is in their favor. For example, casting Remove Hex on yourself when you have Backfire on you is usually better than just standing around for however long it lasts, *unless* casting that spell will kill you or put you very close to death.

I think this sort of decision-making should be built into the AoE-over time avoidance AI. A warrior monster may very well take the damage in order to continue attacking a monk unless he's low on health, whereas a caster may move out of the spell immediately. This is the sort of flexible decision-making that occurs in PvP rather than always stopping what you're doing to react to AoE damage or reactive-damage hexes.

i'm all for it.

either way they make it the hexed foe is screwed. they act they pay for it. they don't attack they will pay for it.

I played a Mesmer through PvE, and I would support this change 100%. There is no reason Deep Knights should swing away happily through my 31-per-swing Empathy.

I will be very happy if/when it's implemented.

AI that actually makes intelligent decisions sometimes? No... we can't have that. PvE is too hard. We need mindless AI.

/sarcasm

Anyway to improve the AI of PUG's? ROFL!

LOL I nearly fell out of my chair when I read this! Thank goodness I wasn't drinking any of my coffee at the time

BTW, I've seen many caster stop casting when I have cast backfire on them. So the moster AI does have that part figured out, but they still keep on attacking with Empathy cast on them...

And I personally don't see why they shouldn't be changed to do that.. or have a call which decides if they do - ie say they are at or under 50% health with Empathy cast on them.. thus they stop attacking and run away!

They already have annoying "run" AI in places in the game, why not just expand on it to include stuff like if they have Empathy cast on them, or if they are low on health they try and run away... just like those blasted Grawl do in Old Ascalon! They are soooo annoying! heheheheh

I have seen enemy AI cancel a spell when they were backfired if it would have killed them, but if they can cast one without dying, they usualy do.

On the other hand, I have seen enemies kill themselves via empathy before.

I say, make them stop attacking/casting through them, but as the OP said, make it only sometimes. Such as. . . While I would not have them run as far as they can, a retreat attempt to get away from combat would be nice. If they have retreated a set amount and are still taking hits, the AI would deem retreat impossible, but hold attacks.

Great topic and some very good ideas by Grimm.
This type of a system would make the game much better IMO at the same time it would give the monsters a very unfair advantage which has been pointed out by Anets most recent improvement to the AI.
In a recent trip to fow in a fairly good group,all of the monsters are now smart enough not to stand in an AOE untill they die but during one battle we had 3 people die in the very same firestorm cast by the 'stupid beasts'
3 of 8 were not as smart as the monsters and again I point out that it was a fairly decent group of players I would guess that of the players that I have encountered in the game that the % is much higher in the general population of people that don't have enough sense to get in out of the rain or maelstrom as the case may be.
How many of you have been in a group and suddenly start taking damage for no reason at all, then you spot the guy next to you with Spiteful spirit on him just hacking away.
I am all for Anet adding more changes to the AI just like this idea, it would make the game alot more fun but we also need to see if someone can come up with an improvement of the IQ for the players just to make it somewhat fair.

Very good idea. However, I think this should be different for different creatures. I can't see a sage (supposedly ancient and wise) casting itself to death when backfired. I can see a beserking Ettin, Troll, Grawl or Minotaur completely ignoring empathy easily.

Different AI/behavour for different creatures is the best way forward for PvE, I think. This would make getting to know different creatures and finding their weaknesses more interesting (npc's might even be added with bits of lore about your opponents). After all, finding a way to exploit the weaknesses of your mirror at Ascension is one of the more interesting pve experiences, for most players, especially if it is their first time and they have not read a guide or something.

A large diversity of behavioral patterns might be a lot of fun. Imagine imps always running away from warriors and retreating when outnumbered (being somewhat cowardly), ettins standing still or walking around in some random direction if a ranger is firing at them from a distance, taking them a moment to spot where the arrows are coming from, undead relentlessly attacking any monk they see. Lizards hiding under the surface of a lake or stream, perhaps using stealth/assassin-like skills, different monsters having different agro ranges, not always charing in directly but grouping together, etc. So many options. Some of those will make the game harder. But pve needs to be a bit harder anyway, not by just adding bigger, tougher and more monsters (like with the titan-missions) or just adding monks, mesmers, etc to any group of monsters, making every battle seem like a tombs battle with less intelligent opponents (not that there is anything wrong with that, but not all pve fighting should be that way).

Of course, more diversity in behaviour, including weaknesses will make it it a bit easier for farm 'specialists' to exploit these. But players have been doing that anyway, but with a generic strategy for all melee creatures with good drops. However, making the PvE part of the game more interesting should have priority over combating farming (if that is what Anet was trying to do with the recent updates).

Anyway, so many options. I do hope will overcome the design issues relating to AI that they mentioned and open up this large range of possibilities.

If three people on your team died to one fire storm, I would have to assume your general standards (or experience with pugs) are quite poor. When AI outsmarts real players, it's time to find new people to play with.

To the OP: If the AI were to perform exactly how a player would perform, I would make my support very, very visible. I celebrate every day the AI outdoes the average (aka very poor) player.

Or maybe Mursaat Elementalists time together to do spikings :P

Ettins using knockdown chains XD

Interrupting/distracting shot by Jade Bows

yes i like it, but i hope they put some stupid monster that will still attack when empathy, spiteful spirit and not run away from aoe dmg. just like some of the real life player, some of them is stupid enough to stand in aoe.

Yep, some should be smart, some should be stupid. Not all the same. And the ai should have imperfect reactions too, for interupts, for example.

I agree, but for a somewhat different reason than you might expect. Many of the ettin, troll, or minotaur builds involve endure pain, healing signet, or other means to prolong life. In other words, they can still attempt to work around the damage up front in order to apply presure to the opponent. For other monster types, who do not have those style of abilities, they should be more cautious/intellegent in behavior. I am all for making AI by monster class/type, but that would require a lot of time setting up and testing i think. So, its not something i expected right out the gate with the game, but something that was fine tuned over time. Although, considering the aoe change, it does strike some as added content other than a refinement of existing behavior. In either event, it is not a bad move by intent, but some of the actual application could use a little more work.

I've seen humans cast through backfire, die, get rezzed and cast through backfire again! .. Why should the AI be smarter than the average human?

If that level 28 axe stops attacking when Spiteful Spirit is casted on him, then I want the ability to get some 120AL armor, or an attribute 20 heal to mitigate the 250 point bonks ion the head. Of course that won't happen, and it's even less likely that humans will get smarter. So then I want the ability to select what skills and weapons my henchies use. Having a party formation selecton would be nice too. As much as I detest Alesia, I don't want her in the front of my group. I need someone to run into the poison water/lava pit to rez Stefan after he chased an enemy into who was running for the hills to get away from Orions awesomely powerful Firestorm that would kill an entire zone in one cast.

There was a monk in my party tonight that was attempting the Defend Denravi quest who died at least 8 times trying to cast through backfire.

Yes, PvE hostile creatures need the ability to make decisions. If someone is casting for example Fire Storm with Rank 1 fire magic, they won't run away because received damage is so minor anyway. Sometimes they would make sacrifices like couple hostile creatures keep hitting party member(s) even they receive AoE damage. High damage AoE spells like Balthazar's Aura or Meteor Shower would almost always make them run from it. Hostile casters would always run away from Maelstorm because it interrupts spells. They shouldn't be so sensitive for low damage AoE damage unless they have low health. AI should command them to scatter around and even switch targets but they should also focus more to one target. Single burst AoE spells like Fireball, Inferno, Phoenix, etc. wouldn't trigger escape reaction.

AI behaviour would depend from creature's natural intelligence. However, there shouldn't be totally mindless creatures especially if they are easy solo farming spot.

IMO, it is players job to keep hostile creatures in AoE range if they try to run from it. For example Elementalist Water Magic attribute skills have gained some extra attention because of improved AI.

EDIT:

I have a bit strange feeling that improved AI has also something to do with Chapter 2 assassin if she has mind skills. She could manipulate AI not to sense danger for example they won't feel from AoE or something. Don't know how those mind skills would work in PvP. Just a thought.