The Point of Origin for PvP Complaints

This idea struck me today and it was quite a revelation about all the issues that PvP players are bringing forward these days. I've mentioned it on a couple other threads and have gotten no response, so I decided to post it independently.

<< My apologies to the moderators in advance if they don't believe another thread on this issue is needed. I just believe strongly that this is the crux of the problem we all are discussing and I would like to bring it to the community's attention. >>

My thesis is this: Prior to the game's release, ANet advertised and promoted it as a PvP experience. It was supposed to be PvP focused and players were supposed to be able to PvP right out of the box (ie. Counterstrike or Battlefield). Many PvP enthusiests signed up in the Alpha and Beta phases to participate in the development of what they saw as a PvP game. When the game was released however, what we saw was a game with significant focus in BOTH PvP and PvE elements. There was also a significant connection between PvP and PvE through the unlocking elements. The result: the PvP community feels as if it was mislead. They believed they were getting a game in which they could enjoy pure PvP without any PvE activity. And therefore they are upset, they feel like they were pushed aside and disregarded.

Now, does this mean ANet produced a "bad" product? Not at all. Guild Wars is an outstanding game. The problem (from the PvP perspective) is that it is not the game ANet advertised, and it was not the game they promised. Furthermore, the public comments that ANet has made lead the PvP community to believe that ANet doesn't care about the long-term stability and growth of the PvP game. They are afraid that Guild Wars has become, in essence, "free World of Warcraft" and that ANet has switched their emphasis to foster THAT game concept instead of the open PvP concept that was initially envisioned. The end result: the mass of criticism now coming from the PvP community and the mass defection of the top PvP guilds.

This is not in any way intended to be a "flame ANet" topic, or a "PvP vs. PvE war" topic. I simply am trying to share a concept which I believe goes a long way to explaining the roots of the problem that the entire Guild Wars community now faces. Above all, I want to make it clear that I want this game to succeed. I've enjoyed this game more than any other I've played in years. This idea, and this topic, are my contribution to the ongoing discussion within the community at large.

Please feel free to discuss this constructively.

EDIT: Regarding ANet and advertising. In response to Aniewiel's inquery I went back and read through all of the ANet press releases and E3 reports I could find. PvP and PvE are both mentioned in equal measure. Given this, I feel I must retract my comment about ANet's direct advertising. I believe my thesis is still plausible because the PvP community certainly feels that it was mislead by ANet in the Alpha/Beta phases, as well as in the months after the game's release. Also (and this is based on impressions only) it appears as though PvPers were far more represented in the Alpha stages. Now I'm not saying this definitively. But based on the available evidence, it does appear to be the case.

Thanks for checking me on that Aniewiel. I should have done that before I went forward with the post.

I would like to see relevant links to the places where Guildwars was advertised as a primarily PvP game. I'm not saying that they -didn't- do this but I would like to -see- it.

I can only speak for myself when I say that I would NOT have preordered GW if this had been the advertising I had read. I started following the game via Gamespot in spring 2004 so I realize that some of the alpha testing and such had been going on already by that point. Still the advertising that was released to the public did not, that I noticed, emphasize PvP over PvE. Perhaps it did in the early alpha stages? Even so, is it not the perrogative of the developer to make changes that they feel will best 'sell' their game? Alpha is just that: Alpha, a beginning, not an end product.

I am not a PvPer nor will I ever be one other than to occasionally humiliate myself in UT2004. The game would not have appealed to me at all if it had been advertised as having its primary focus on PvP.

Does anyone have copies of or links to anywhere that says this?

You hit the head on the nail. If you focus solely on one aspect of this game, you're bound to get bored. It's the same thing with every other game. If you balance the experience of pvp and pve or switch back and forth, you're going to lengthen the lifespan of this game by months. Pvp only players are complaining that its such a grind to find skills they need to ounter builds, but seem to forget that theres faction there for a reason. Yes, you still need to accumulate large sums of faction as opposed to a pve player who can simply complete a mission and buy new skills. However, they seem to forget that this is also available to them. This game is still balanced between the focus of pvp and pve.

Mmmmm, an odd revelation I must say and one that does not speak for all pvpers, as well. Anet did not ignore PvP at any means. If you think of it in Anet's shoes, adding a PvE aspect may appeal to more players and be able to sell better. Going back to what said, you can unlock anything you want with pvp or pve now with the new prize system. The biggest problem is the waiting to make a team. After that factor is the problem that your team is no good. So the biggest flaw is the grinding in which Guild Wars was supposed to cut out. You may not be grinding for items and skills, but you are grinding to get exposed to better players. Only with practice, patience, and questioning can you become a good player. Guild Wars did what they promised though, it is a game of skill and also a game of strategy in which you incorporate skills to compliment each other to fulfill a team goal.

Here ya go...

http://guildwars.com/

you might have to search around a bit. but it's all there.

Things such as "Built for competition" and "You don't have to play for countless hours to get to the fun bits" and if that's not enough for you, take a look at the box.

i do not have links but i have kept very close watch on everything i could read from the COMPANY not wishful speculation by others.

i am PVE and if it had not been advertized as equal parts of both i would not have even used my january beta magazine key.

i did and had a wonderful time and preordered the next day.

everything since has had at least equal emphasis on the PVE and if anything is even a bit more on the PVE side but who knows what will happen in the next 6 months

i will wait and find out

Double Post:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/guild...w_6101982.html

Watch the video on that page!

nah thats not it

but it has to do a lot with advertisements and gameplay pre release.

and even on the gamebox.




________________
Dac The Hork

Please folks... I would like this to be a constructive discussion about the issue at hand. I did the research and read a bunch of press releases, E3 reports, and game previews... both from the official Guild Wars site and gaming webpages. PvP and PvE are both mentioned often. As I mentioned in my edit of the original post, I retract the comment about official ANet advertising. I do still believe my thesis is plausible, for the other reasons I explained.

Now if we can keep things positive, constructive, and on topic you would all have my thanks.

From ANet's Game Synopsis page at their website:

I have 500+ hours invested and only have the skill icons and equipment open for my two primary characters, and maybe 15 total things open for the other characters. Can I just run out and compete with my awesome new build ideas for the other classes? Not without grinding out the requirements I can't. Absolutely insane to influence competition this way.

The "Consolidation of Community Requests" thread that recently opened up is a sham until it at least acknowledges this crucial issue is still a VERY important topic to be discussed. Instead it is currenty a topic off the table, so at least for PvP players this thread has some worth towards collectively addressing this on-going problem.

I submitted this in the thread that will send questions to ANet on Friday that summarizes my feelings on PvP problems:

We debated this topic here. I'd like a person who disagrees with me to read it through before responding with any alternative points that I and others have already addressed.

In the video he mentions skill>time a billion times.

It makes me sad hearing it again

On my pre-order box, the only direct mention of PVP I can find is a line about "working with guild members to reach the highest levels of tournament play.” I bought Guild Wars having no idea that it was so PVP heavy.

He repeatedly states that it is about player skill and not hours spent playing... then contradicts himself by describing what the current problem is - going through PvE play mechanics to play PvP. That is absolutely basing success in PvP on the amount of hours spent playing. They need to just be honest and throw this "player skill not hours played" line in the trash. I have fun with PvE, but for PvP that's not what this game is about.

Could this quote not also apply to PvE players? Despite what some may think, there is an element of skill and teamwork required for PvE as well.

Goku: We got it on the video. Don't repeat yourself please.

Weezer: "The Fun Bits" might be PvP for you but that doesn't necessarily have the same meaning for everyone. Please try to be constructive and/or informative since that is the OP's request and the tenor of this thread. Sarcasm has its place but I asked a legitimate question.

Arredondo: I would like to see -official- press releases, interviews, etc. if you can find them rather than other's interpretation of what the company intended. I think that those sorts of links are of great interest to a lot of people if you can find them and, certainly, they might shore up the argument a great deal.

The quote "Built for Competition" doesn't just mean PvP! It can mean 100 different things to 100 different people. I can compete against my guildmates to see who can run the fastest to Yak's Bend. I can compete with them to see who can unlock the most skills in the shortest time. Yes, I agree that competition is one element of the game.

The box also says, "Explore a world that dynamically grows and changes with new content while you play."

"Jump right into a world of thousands where each mission is created just for you. Live a fast paced adventure without travel time delay, high death penalties or spawn camping. Join with friends or play solo with a band of skilled henchmen."

Then comes the essence quote in the lower right hand side of the box, "Ascend as a team to the highest levels of competition, a truly global tournament to control the Hall of Heroes. World fame and fortune await the victors."

And in the manual that came with the game, there are 139 pages devoted to the PvE side and 4 pages to PvP.

I do NOT discount PvP but that is not what the game was soley expected to be at least according to the box advertisements.

Believe me when I tell you that I WANT PvP to succeed, to be less grinding for you all, to be what it is that you want it to be. I do not, however, want that to come at the expense of PvE. I do think that both can be done well and in good time.

That line I quoted came directly under the topic header in bold: Built for Competition

The video is a goldmine for sarcasm. I was almost in tears by the end of the video.

yeah

watch the video if you skipped it above

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/guild...w_6101982.html


btw the map is actually Siege of Fort Koga shown

an old fave of mine.

Please... ladies and gentlemen, while the video in question may speak to ANet's thinking on the game and is therefore relevant, it is not the "be all, end all" of this topic. I would ask that we not lose sight of the overall issue. Thank you.

I think the video shows our entire argument spoken by A.net

ps. sorry diddnt see the delete option (im retarded eh)

The only skill required in PvE is pulling, and that's basically 'make sure the little red dots on the mini map are spaced out, and try to get as few as possible into your big white circle'. With a half decent Monk and a smidgeon of understanding of aggro management, you can bypass just about anything.

I watched a guildmate's brother get to the Crystal Desert in 3 days, skipping so many quests he barely had enough to put together a coherent build. Yet, he burned through the content.

PvE skill isn't skill, it's common sense.