The root of all evil (true reason for Factions hate)

Factions is much too compressed for my taste. There's hardly a square inch of map that's just there to be explored. Where are the Ice Caves, Dakutu villages, Maguuma Stades?

I think you've hit the nail on the head here, even if you didn't mean to drive it in my direction. Getting to mainland Cantha does feel like getting to the desert in Tyria: the content is geared toward the level 20 crowd, and the desert is the first "stall point" for people who still haven't realized what party cooperation and a good skill set are. But if we're talking Factions in Prophecies terms, what happened to the game in between?! If players are tossed from "pre-Searing" to the "desert," where's our Ascalon/Shiverpeaks/Kryta/Maguuma? Can you simply "chop out" that much content and expect that no one will notice or care?

There are 4 missions in the desert (counting Dragon's Lair), 3 missions the South Shiverpeaks, and 3 missions in the Ring of Fire. To me, those 10 come dangerously close to the 11 we have in mainland Cantha, and it feels very much like I've paid the same price for half the content.

Is that an acceptable learning curve for a stand-alone game? Only an expansion - where people already know the "basics" - can afford such rushed advancement, and only an expansion with less space if not content than the original requires this setup. Or do you really think the "Tablets of Wisdom" in towns can substitute for the experience generated by hours of gameplay?

Alright, let's examine the Master Mission Bonus and why it was introduced in Factions. The obvious answer is that players need more skill points and more gold in order to acquire the Factions skills, as the number of skills available to both old and new characters is far greater than it was in Prophecies. But look deeper: there are less missions in Factions than in Prophecies, and where you could acquire 25 skill points just by completing the Prophecies storyline, you will only obtain 13 (or 11, for Tyrian characters) by getting through the Factions one. That clearly isn't enough, so more reward is packed into the same content yet again. At double the Prophecies reward, you get 26 (22) skill points for completing the Factions storyline; at triple the Prophecies reward, you get 39 (33). All of the extra content that is implied by the extra reward in Factions does not exist. Instead, you're in the same position as with the city quests: the game is made to seem long rather than be long.

Ah, but I'm not trying to tell people what I personally think is wrong with Factions. I'm trying to get at the design elements that have caused the wave of grief over Factions, so that - if ANet is watching - they can do more than a "cosmetic" fix of the same model for the next chapter.

It's "he"

And how precisely does "mostly level 20 content" translate to "smaller map size?" If Factions was as big a game as Prophecies, there would most likely be less concern due to the fact that the same 20% of Factions would be bigger, as would the 80%. With a bigger game, ANet wouldn't have to make the "learning curve" part of the game so steep to make room for the "high-end content" part.

The root to all evil.

Isnt it evident that the root to all evil is having elite towns accessible by the top two alliances. Wasnt guildwars suppose to be a casual and friendly game different from the other online games. I see it now as war between those who hold elite towns and those who reside in little alliances. This system has made the obssessed more obssessed, the richer even richer, the greedy even greedier, and ultimately the less fortunate with little chance of getting the best of the game. Before it was hatred amongst those who held favors but at least favors can be easily won back. Elite towns are a different story. The winning alliances will always hog it and continuously gain more factions per day making it almost impossible for tiny alliances to even get near.

Good job to the elite town holders. Your work has paid off with being the one and only alliance in the elite town. I do thank some of those members that invite strangers into elite town for their kind heartedness. But for those members that disclude and even do malicious acts to non allies, I feel sorry for you. Infact, some of these members kick non allies out of elite town by disguising themselves as mission team leader, teleporting to local towns and booting them from the team. Congrats to these people, you have made elite town less populated and harder to make teams unless you plan on playing with the same group of people over and over again. Good job, you have a million dollar weapon, now you are richer by a million of artificial gold. These people have just created hatred towards their alliance and a growing negative reputation.

Wow i have just wrote a mini essay. A great topic for me to open my brain to and exercise my writing skills.

In Prophecies, a guild of 8 people can win HoH.
In Faction, a huge alliance ("big "guild") is required to hold capitals -> elite missions.

How many 800 people "guilds" do we have in GW?

I'd say it is an evil rather than the root of them all. With the emphasis on persistant warfare and alliance battles, a lot of players will indeed be excluded from accessing content - either by being on the wrong side or by not being a part of a faction-grinding alliance. But ANet chose to shift the emphasis of Factions in this direction, and I think one of the reasons was the inability, or unwillingness, to provide as expansive a game as Prophecies. Persistent warfare and elite missions allowed ANet to pack more content into same space, and just because most people won't be able to access the content the very possibility that they might seems to justify this shift.

Happy to oblige

This is why I don't think Factions deserves the title "Guild Wars." Instead, we're going to have "Alliance Wars" as more and more people want to get access to elite missions. The Last Pride, if I remember correctly, had under 10 people when it won the first GW championship, which was the highest point of "guild warfare." With the amount of faction points required to control even the smallest outposts, can you imagine anyone but a team of faction grind farmers being able to do the same in terms of "alliance warfare?"

My original guild, Hounds of Creegus, has grown over the year of its existence, and now numbers 300+ members. We've expanded into a fourth guild, Divinity of Creegus, only a week ago, and I just happened to become its guild lord. Even with as large a player base as ours, who is to say we'll be successful in gaining control of a town when that requires virtually all members of the alliance to obtain and turn in faction points - on a constant basis, I might add, so that the standing doesn't decline? And even if we do, what about all the other people who won't be able to share in our triumph? Holding the Hall of Heroes is something all members of the region are looking forward to, but do all members of a faction want a particular alliance to succeed in taking a town?

@Shyft the Pyro:

I understand what you mean, but I don't agree, at least not 100%.
I would agree fully if I thought of Factions as a stand-alone game (IE; GuildWars 2), but the way I see it, it's an expansion playable without the "core" game.

I know that Prophecies has more content when you compare the games directly to each other, but I don't think that would be a fare comparison when I review Factions as an expansion. While I would love to have a new campaign comparable to the content base of Prophecies twice a year, I just don't think that it's possible while still maintaining a certain level of quality. And since the game does not have a monthly fee, it's important for ANet to keep those additional campaigns coming as fast as possible.

I do agree with some of your points though, as I felt a bit stupid when talking some RL friends into trying Factions without having tried Prophecies and we ended up beeing level 20 in four hours of slow questing ("wow, that's it? we've reached the cap allready?" "err, yeah.. it appears so. uuuh.. maybe.. maybe we should play prophecies first instead"). But hey, it *is* an expansion after all, and it doesnt make sense to go trough that huge slope before reaching the cap in that case.

Anyway, It's all about expectations and perspectives. Imagine how boring it would be if everyone had the same opinions about everything.
Though, it would be very nice if ANet opened up pre-sear for Ritualists/Assassins for those that have both campaigns.

I don't mind not playing pre-searing with those classes. It would take a lot of reworking to make that viable. I just wish we would be able to enter pre-LA missions and do pre-LA quests. I feel a bit slighted. It's not like storyline mattered to prophecies characters.

actually i agree with the threadmaker..

Anet try to compress the gameplay of GW:F into one small area but putting the player back and forth doing a single quest..for me, i do not think it is effective..a more dynamic quest need to be implemented, and i think that this is not the way..

secondly, elite mission is too restricted..it restricts to those who are hardworking enough to farm factions 24/7 or those who are in megaloalliance to access to it..i mean even business wise, i think making it restricted to about 1% of total population of GW players are bad..

thirdly, about the alliance battle, what the community initially ask of the developer is to implement punishment for those who leave the game..not making it to what it is now..=.="..besides that, i think the objective of the battle..that is reaching 500 point is too hard to achieve as if a team cannot quickly control enough or essential post in the early part of the battle..then win/lose is quickly decided before the battle proceed into later moment..hence, for those who are losing, they eventually give up as their score is like 100 to 400 that leads to leaver..

my conclusion is that anet has made too many changes without consulting their fanbase first..if they implement changes to GW eventually, then they can study the reaction of their fanbase when one change is being implemented then if there are problem occurs, they can change it. Then, they proceed to another changes. In GW:F, there are basically too many new elements being implemented..that i admit change the gameplay of GW:P too drastically..some of the fans may take it and some may not..

and yeah, GW is not designed for grinding..what GW:F does is introducing the grinding element into the game..which probably a bad decision for the developer to enchance the replayability of the game..

the threadmaker has made some good points about the weak part of GW:F and i certainly hope that anet may view those rants positively and improve the game further in the future..

do not mistaken me, i certainly love guild wars and hope for all the best for anet in the production of the series..

[QUOTE=Shyft the Pyro]
Factions "pre-Searing" ends when you reach Seitung Harbor.
[QUOTE]

um faction presear ends when u get out of the annoying toturial, since u can accsess ur storage, weapon/armor crafter and traders.

also there is a huge gap betweenn the island and the mainland. the mainland is for lvl20s, hardly anyone is lvl 20 after u finish all the quests and mission, and some quest are stupidly hard, for example "The Captured Son"

Ok, read through the thread and I'm starting to feel like the only person who likes the game and the fact that leveling goes fast. Ok, not too many missions but I have so much to do when I have finished the last one. My list is so long that I often have a hard time to decide what to do. Playing with friends is always fun, but what do I know.

My 2 cents on this is that Factions is definitely stand alone as it obviously can be played on its own but the buck stops there. Now the point I would like to make is this: If factions had been the first offering from Anet and not prophecys, how many of us would keep playing it for a year waiting for the next chapter to come out? Not many. Factions is geared toward hurrying people into playing PVP no doubt about it. It is nowhere near as involved or as rich a game world as prophecys was. Already I find myself playing just as much back in Tyria as I do in Cantha.

As a PVE oriented player, if Factions had been my first taste of Guild Wars the ride would have been very short and I wouldn't have been back for a second one. Anet now has serious damage control to do if they want to have any success with chapter 3.

My biggest problem is that I'm a PvEer who generally likes to go out and explore, and usually uses henchies with exception of missions(I'm speaking of Prophesies).

GvG was fun for an ocassional thing, never did HoH, did some random arena fights on ocassion, and prefer a small guild of close comrades.

Is there even a nitch here for people like me, or should I look elsewhere?

edit* I love the idea of new classes and locals. I do not own Factions yet either. I am worried that I will not get much use from this game like I did the first.

Then your opinion smells because the economy is far from being "right".

I always say: Don't Complain if you can't do better. So basically anyone in this forum who has made an online game that has sold over 1 mil copies may speak....*waits*.........That's what i thought,

2 Things to say that really needed saying:

-I agree with a lot of the comments here. There is less content and more grind, and experience is seriously inflated. However, I still count Factions as one of my favorites games. No game is perfect, yet I see people ranting about how "Anet has betrayed us!" Why don't you all write letters to Anet telling them how YOU think it should be and how Anet is a "traitor" if it doesnt make all it's games exactly the way YOU want. It's easy to crizticize, but I still see people paying their $50 for the game.

-People, chill, and just play the game. If you get stop trying to give yoursleves heart attacks and actually play the game, you just might actually enjoy yourselves.

*puts on anti-flame shield"

Yeah well if my job was to be a computer game designer, maybe I'd follow that. As it is, maybe I (or any hypothetical person) actually am doing my own job better than Anet is doing theirs.

Also, popular != good. McDonalds is proof of that.

I don't know how anyone can call Factions a PvP-oriented game ... it's a FARMING game. Despite of ANet whining how much they hated farming, the essence of Factions is just that: faction farming. Just look at the guild that's sitting on Cavalon by farming supply quest over and over and over again. It's kinda pitiful that to be the strongest Luxon guild all you need is ... mindless farming. I already see chinese farmers & their bots farming faction with supply runs in near future, even not being a programmer it's not hard to see that these kind of scripts would be much simplier than the ones used to farm minotaurs.

I really wish they'd think at least a little about the PvP people and allow us to switch part of the Balthasar's faction we get for Luxon/Kurzick faction, so that we are not forced to go farm faction in PvE to be able to compete with the PvE farmers' guilds. (Ofc PvPers can do alliance battles, but IMO without 12 people parties they aren't that fun anymore and many would prefer to get their faction in GvGs instead).

I don't know what happened to "no grind" ... Factions is ALL about grind.

While i understand the Op's opinion, I must say your view is quite skiewed.

Backtracking at this level is nothing compared to the entire days I spent traveling on the back of a chocobo, doing basicly nothing, in Final Fantasy 11 just to prepare to travel some more on a chocobo tomorrow and waste hours upon hours standing in the same spot, killing something every 20 minutes, grinding for days upon days to obtain enough money just to buy my food for leveling. yes, I said Food. When I finished getting gil for food, I had to WALK back to a town, atleast 20 minutes of walking away from me. With absoloutely no speed boosts.

Now, in reality the amount of game play in FF11 only 40+ hours, but that only counts the missions. Not the insane months of grinding. some might say "You grind in GW for months too!" But what they dont realise is that the grind in GW has a shred of entertainment in it. You grind in FF11 to obtain something through basicly entering a zone, clicking on a monster and chatting to your freinds while the game does most of the work for you.

If you want to bitch about something like grinding in guild wars or lack of content, go play FF11. Either you will get all the content you could ever dream, or you will find that the grind in GW is about as tedious as playing your favorite game in comparison.

Again, I understand the Op's frustration with the "lack of content" or the amount of backtracking, but people such as I understand the good in what you say is only bad.

(Any posters that claim "Im off topic, I do not understand this, or that the two games are so diffrent you cant compare them" are subject to flames and insults)

Just to clear one thing.. stand alone != sequel or new game..
Stand alone means u can play it without the core game..
Factions is a stand alone expansion where you don't even need to know the story of prophecies to play..