12v12 needs to be reworked

are we playing the same game? Keep in mind the name of this game is Guildwars not "mewars" or "Iwars". Personally I think the idea of a random 12 v 12 is a good idea for the 2 faction concept. Eventually the balance in the the random 12 man team will shift to something more tolerable than 4 Rt, 5 As, 2W, and a R...monks will show up and people will be playing builds designed to support 12 people not the usuall 4 in a random match....

I think the Anet will definatly have 12 v 12 arenas that are not random, however for the beta event an actuall comp arena at the 12 v 12 level would complety and uterly be owned by the first couple of uber guilds to develop and organize a good 12 v 12 concept...thats why they all are random, at least for the BWE....

The goal of Anet should be to please as many player as possible, lets have random and comp arenas...but one last time keep in mind if you are playing by yourself, you dont belong to a guild, you only PVE, or You dont really PvP much....you are not the core audience of this game and you will suffer unless you learn to play the game more as it was intended to be played....

if we all have the "Guild"wars mentality a random arena is not random...its one big guild "luxons" v one big guild "kurzicks"....

Ummm, its fairly easy to get 2 teams in at the same time. We had multiple matches with 8 people on vent, some of them were quite good.

A single coordinated 4-man team can win with a drop or two. We had some fun 4 man builds designed especially for 12v12 and had no problems consitantly winning (we lost one or two, but things favored us). I don't think we ever lost when we had 8 people on vent, but there were some good matches against other coordinated teams.

12 v 12 is great! The only thing that needs to be added is a punishment for leavers or opposition joining your team, and in game voice chat for your team.

They say dont reinvent the wheel...but they make it to where you cant even use it.

I quite enjoy the randomness of these Alliance Battles, especially the part where I don't have to play some select build that everyone loves at the time. Being able to just jump into a battle saves a lot of time (don't have to stand around for hours yelling LFG) as well, while it still provides an arena that requires a little more coordination and effort than RA.

There are some issues with this set up, namely leavers (and some technical issues for me, but that's hardly relevant), but I believe the random quality of the arenas is much preferrable to making it some kind of hardcore competitive "I must be r3/6++ to get into a decent group within the next 3 hours" sort of thing.

I see these battles more like GvG where you won't be LFG for anything you'll be with your guild all the time. Thats how i did it this weekend at least.
But this issue is very polarizing. PvE and casual people like it, Serious PvP players don't like it cuz of the joke that it is(can you guess how i feel)

You cannot have real communication and therefore cannot form a strategy to win, which means people that enjoy planning and carrying out a winning strategy will not be interested. People that are looking to just bash at something with their axe or just build a huge minion army will prolly have fun. I think this is how Anet is trying to succeed this competition for Pve and PvP players, fun for casual pick up and play but definatly not anything more

Thread hijack:
For discussion about how to fix the issue of rage quiters in the 12 vs 12 Alliance Battles, follow the below link:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=142996

A number of ideas have been proposed on how to deal with the problem of rage quiters.


Back to topic:
Like many have stated, if you wanted organized teams, go in with teams of 4.

Again,
please don't make it like how the "Heroes Ascent" is of now.
Please don't deny casual players the chance to participate in large scale battles.


About communication:
I have leet typing skills(70+ WPM), so using typing as a means of communication is not an issue for me.

Im going to say it again:

Keep it random and for the casual player. Fix the quitting/leaving/griefing problem.

I love organized PVP as much as the next guy and play GvG whenever I can, but that's not always possible so I think these Alliances battles are a great ALTERNATIVE.

Remember, these arent supposed to replace HoH and GvG and dont try to turn them into clones of them either.

/not signed

Personally I dont believe it was the randomness of the groups, but the battles themselves. Such as Fort Aspenwood - when I first went in, I had NO idea was what going on! someone was like go here and do this and I was like uh ok.. "DEAD"! I still dont get it and I did it twice - once where 2 people left the group. Personally I'm not a PvP'er but I wanted to see what it was about. however, the randomness does help in that you dont have to wait forever to find a group - nor do you have to wait on guildies to get on to play. Its random for a reason - if they intended for it to non-random, it would have been "form your own group"... and in a way, it was fun!

Me and one MM held shipwreck, repeled a group, then went on to take the monk alter near their left base entrance, held that, then joined the main battle. 2 people choordinated makes a huge difference against random people running in. if you can make 4 PEOPLE choordinated like that, you're pretty hard to kill. keep it random.

/not signed.

I agree that randomness is required, but one thing that should be enforced is the creation of a 4 player team n alliance wars and not allowing single individuals to just bash the enter button.

I'm happy with the specific random arenas (that dont require team formation e.g. fort/jade).

Couldn't have said it better.

This place will NEVER turn into HA because there is no fame. IWAY didn't destroy HA fame did don't get it confused. Without rank you wouldn't be sitting in town for hours trying to find group.

The reward for factions is merchants. This is a global reward much like favor is. There is no personal reward like rank.

If it stays random I would still buy factions but only for the skills because I'm really more pvp oriented. I see some broken skills already and look forward to the new GvG season with new guild halls.

12vs12 is going to remain a joke unless you can use alliances to link teams.

/NOT signed.


repeat NOT SIGNED, EVER.

you can organise in there, but the random aspect breaks any 'build' dominanace, teams of 12 would just be awful.

Ditto, I like the fact it's random.

There is one slight problem though... I noticed that the winning team usually seemed to have a good MM with them. Tried it out and wow, two crushing 500-90ish victories. MM vs unorginized teams is pretty brutal, hardly anyone packs corpse claimers. Oh well, it was a nice opportunity to dust off Verata's Aura and snicker at my enemies reaction after their fiends turn on them*.

*It's especially amusing because Verata's Aura doesn't change their minion's team colours, their "previous owner" doesn't know they've turned until it's too late.

It's kind of unfair how only Profecies characters get the hard MM counter...

/not signed

The randomness is placed to prevent a complait about Mass Battles that 'spike' team mihgt be overpowered

This is not a game for the most uber l33t. There are morons but just intructing some of them can make play better.

This requires skill and is a NEW place for fun new part of Guild Wars. Like 1v1 will be if it is introduced.

If you don't like this type of play then DON'T PLAY IT!

As it currently stands, it is the organized (vent) groups that can dominated Alliance battles. Sure random people can enter, but even in the current configuration organized 4-mans will be the deciding factor.

If a group of 12 randoms faces a team with 2 organized 4-man teams: gg, rage quit.

Spike teams will never work on the 12v12 map. The most effective spike would be two team 6+6 which would be dominated by 4+4+4 or even 3+3+3+3. Sure spike can kill quickly, but that really isn't rewarded.

The reward here is re-vamped fame in the form of earning enough faction to own a freaking TOWN! Once more people realize that and how to do it we'll start seeing some serious proffesionalism in the 12 v 12, and i'm not happy about that.

Owning a town means that the merchants won't sell items to the other faction and you get to do some elite pve missions. Again neither of those are personal rewards like an emote and rank is. Everyone in that faction will have the same positive or negative.

Spike team will never work because you have to take over multiple alters spread out and hold them. If you have ever played in a spike team then you know that splitting will most likely spell the end for you. Best you can do is a 6 man split. As said before by Thom it will destroyed by a 4-4-4 or 3-3-3-3 teams taking over multiple points at once while you can take only 2 at the most.

Assassins and ritualist really shine in this game play as the ritualist can guard 2 alters alone. The assassin can use recall and other tele skills to move quickly across a large map. Charge is the only elite choice for wars or 2nd wars. MM are owning now because of the unorganization. Kill the MM and the minions turn on the owners. Not to mention it allows a member on your team to use aura and take them all under control. I brung gaze just to take over then flesh golem. They will raise another one and boom now I have 2

MM are not a problem I more worried about how EoE is going to chain outside of its area.

I haven't read the whole topic, so if someones already said this, forgive me.

Look how long it takes to get an 8 man team together (GvG or HA).... now imagine a 12 man team....damn that will take a while. I like hows its random but you can pick a few team mates.

The only bad thing I can say about 12v12 is that once one team takes a lead of 50 points or more, the most of the other team players rage quit, which turns it into a waiting game (waiting to get 500 pts since the game is over already...). Not sure how ANet could fix that though, because rage quitters are not their fault...

i still want random, so i can just click and play. not wasting my time sitting there.

punish the quiter, and give some nice shit to the one that fight till end.
then everyone will stay in the game until last minute.

You might be surprised by that. My guildmates and myself played an awful lot of 12-man this weekend, and the format is a blast. The huge maps put a lot of emphesis upon map awareness and individual playskill so it's a great place to just go and mess around. The semi-randomness of the format is a *huge* selling point. You always have some friends to mess around with in there, which keeps it fun, but the randomness keeps it low key.

I think this is exactly what the game needed. HA has become a pretty serious format to most people and very discriminatory because of it - GvG is of course the most serious format in the game. Arenas are ok to mess around with a bit but are absurdly simple. 12v12 is a nice medium. Newer players can join into the grand melee in the middle of these maps, while more experienced players win and lose the game on the fringes in smaller squads.

Running around on your own dueling people isn't a bad thing at all, it's encouraged by the spread out nature of the map. That idiot WaMo will get smashed by an experienced player 1v1 (I've had a lot of fun hunting those this weekend), but he's actually being productive if he's capturing and defending control points on his own. Similarly if a more seasoned player doesn't want to play tactically he can just bring a dominant center-map character to the grand melee and farm himself some n00bs. Take a Flame Burst turret into those melees and you'll see what I mean.

12v12 has something for everyone, and it's a blast to play. It won't replace GvG as a competitive format, but does it have to? I would not be surprised if 12v12 becomes the most popular format in the long haul. It's just that good.

It goes without saying that I wouldn't make any significant changes to the way it plays, at all.

Peace,
-CxE