Are primary monks -really- that necessary?

In response to the monk love thread...

Why do we have this reliance on monks? Can we not go into a mission with a N/Mo and a E/Mo and expect to come out the other side? Have you never taken a full team of 8 rangers though ring of fire?

Why the dependence?

Personally, ive been a part of a team thats finished Iron Mines, and Ring of Fire without a monk tagging along. It can be done, people. Stance tank farmers, armour of earth/kinetic armour eles can take on half the game by themselves.

Wouldn't it be cool to see a full contingent of blood spike necros able to take out the Lich?

The Challenge:: Find a nice hard level - Thunderhead, Abaddon's Mouth, the Underworld. Get a team together with some self heals, potentially a seconday monk, who has plently of offensive spells too. See if you can complete the mission without a monk, then report back here.

Pre-conceived notion that healing damage is always better than preventing/avoiding it. Besides "zomg, monk can heal, lets aggro 2x as much to maek it fastar!!11".

Fake edit: people are retards

'missions' are easy, try doing FoW/UW or Tomb with no primary monk

Well, i've finished Tombs plenty of times in spike teams when the monk has dropped.

Also, the more attacks/interrupts a team is doing the less damage the enemy is going to do, and they will be around for a shorter time...

FoW - Solo Warrior
UW - 4 man trapper team

I wouldn't say a primary monk is always better than a secondairy in PvE. One that knows how to -play- monk is better most of the time than one who -is- a monk

I actually think a Necromancer/Monk is better than a primary monk in some cases.

I think, though, that the E/mo healer is a terrible idea sometimes. It has basically no energy managment in most cases, and if it does, sacrifices cast time or safety for the enrgy ability. (Glyphs or Ether Prodigy). The whole "I can heal great for a good 50 seconds!" thing is just.. Stupid. E/mo Protection is a different story.

Its definitely hard to get by without one or two primary monks, because the primary monk skill adds so much to their healing.

But lets face it, people depend all too much on monks. It makes me laugh when I hear groups being formed for whatever mission or farming location stating that they need 3 monks. If they need 3 monks, they are not playing well. 3 monks means more healing but much less damage dealing.

Then there are players who refuse to take a bit of self healing with them. Like I was out with a ranger friend, I was ranger also. Our entire party got killed except for us two in FOW. We also got damaged quite heavily running away from siege worms. I applied Troll Unguent to heal myself but noticed that my party friend's health remained very low. So I asked, uh, don't you have Troll Unguent? Reply: never take it. Gak! I mean, when I play ranger, I really need healing by the monks because I tend to get in the front lines once in a while; but at least I try to keep myself healed as much as possible.

Then there are the players that refuse to move their characters back out of the danger zone when the situation looks hopeless. When monks run out of energy or when they can't keep up with the damage being done, its time for everyone to abandon the dead and retreat. However, most PUGs just don't know how to do this.

And then there are the players who don't realize that the henchy monks are there to fill in when no human monk is available.

I like to see that.
You know that all melee and ranged suck at staying alive. Without a good monk, you have no one to gather your bodies after you've been creamed

Yeah secondary healers are great if you don't care at all about Divine Favor...

Well first off, Monks have Divine Favor, boosting their heals. They also, have head-piece and runes to boost their skills even further. This is not to say another caster such as, N/Mo E/Mo, would not be competent. It just means that monks have the superiour heals.

I think people just do that most of the time out of stupidity or lack of skill. I see alot of monks that refuse to kite becuase they think its 'gay'. Or that elementalist who sits there and lets 17 enemies pound on her as she casts Fire Storm.

Reminds me of a custom game my friend and I play for Warcraft 3. Its based on Resident Evil and has completely all the same puzzles and stuff. Sometimes we take real people to play with us and continually tell them how stupid it is not to backup when Zombies get to close to you, as letting them pound on you for too long is unneccisary and often leads to death.. Not to mention a waste of healing supplies.

Well, nobody ever listens and for a 5 hour game, the longest we have ever had anyone last was 1 hour

Too bad its not so easy to zone back and kick the people who wouln't listen in FoW/UW.

Yeah, that's the one. Its not at all an obligation to have 30 extra healing, but it is helpful.

people dont respect monks >_<

Divine favours what, 30-40 health max? Its handy, but comparitively, its not going to keep the team going any longer than any other healer.

And each class has their own benefits -

Energy management and N's - By the time a N/Mo gets down to low mana there should be dead things boosting its energy, so there should be no worries for N's continuly healing their party members with more powerful heals, unlike monks.

Energy and E's - no comment needed

Fast casting and Me's - yeah, for some of those longer casting spells... heal party, healing seed, etc...


As for runes, well, the other classes can take superior runes to help them deal more damage, so that they will never have to heal as much. Or to lay down wards, or weaken/slow enemies, or to backfire/interrupt their casters. To prevent, rather than cure.

Ive been through THK (Not bonus) without any monks, had 2 nuke, 2 SS, 1 w/mo (With no healing except mending), myself as w/n, and two rangers using traps.

Most stuff can be done, just make sure you all have some form of self heal, work as a unit, not as a rabble, and most of all, talk to each other.

2 SS's? <3

Must have been wonderful

Yeah we kicked ass, totally. Mind you, 5 of us were guildies, which made a big difference instead of PUG.

Crazy SMS guild....gonna get themself killed one day

They aren't needed for missions really...But they are really helpful, its nice to have a really good monk or two in your group so when you are fighting you don't have to worry about your health so much, Plus i notice when being in a group for a mission without a monk if someone dies, or if a couple of people die, it seems the people that are alive dont have rez.

Oh yeah, if you want high risk factor, don't take a monk, but being primarily a monk myself alot of the time,most groups need one. The majority of people can't actually step outside of a city without a monk..

You could make the same argument, asking whether primary X profession is necessary, for any of the current professions. You can probably build a team to compensate for what you lack.

And so the love/hate war of monks continues.

And what a challenge it is for a PUG. Most people seem to turn the self preservation part of their brain off when they see 2 monks in a group. I'm guilty of it myself.

Fact is, the vast majority of PvE builds out there have no self healing ability, relying completely on "someone else" to worry about their HP. Add to that, when people group, the main reason they take Mo as their alt proffession is for hard rez and ONLY hard rez.

Its not that people don't respect monks per se. Its that people don't respect the need to keep their own HP up.

Truer words were never spoken. Controlling agro, defending each other, not tankiing with only 60 Armor. Common sense is a huge factor in this game, and when something goes wrong, you need to return the HP that was lost quickly.

And theres the rub. When things go south, its up to someone to heal you. If you can self heal after fighting yourself into a corner, all the more to you and tell me yer build! But if you can't, and the healer can't, monk or alt monk, who gets the blame?

Be honest. How many people spam "Why didn't I heal myself???" in the chat text when they die?

Its not a reliance on monks thats the problem with PUGs. Its dependence on others.