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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Seriously though, the quest Last Day Dawns, will paint a good image just who'se in control of these charrs. |
Charr leadership, history, motivations, relations with other major races, etc.
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Originally Posted by Canadian Bacon
So this is just coming to Guru now?
A guy over at GWOnline, I forget his name, has done EXTENSIVE research into this stuff, and made quite a few connections. His research articles are long reads, but very interesting. I remember he was proving that the Forgotten Bows and Swords are a lesser 'species' of Mursaat. They spikyness at the back like Mursaat, but do not float. They also have an identical logo on their attire to that of the Mursaat. |
Anyway, I really wonder about the charr invasion if anything. They can be,
a. They just happened to decide to invade Tyria.
b. They recieved oracle from the prophecies, and decide to free their god with the flameseeker prophecies.
c. The Mursaat want to elminate all the possible chosen, therefore they pursade/force Charr to attack the human kingdoms, as chosen come from them.
d. The Charr was told by their priest that the Titan God had spoken to them, that they must invade Tyria to free the god.
All up in the air...
and... WILL GWEN BECOME A SUPER WOMAN CHARR SLAYER? =P
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Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent
Anyway, I agree with alot of what Avarre said. Also, Avarre, they timeline is talking about those gigantic skeletons you see in Dragon's Gullet and in the Desert. Those aren't titans, they are referred to as the Great Beasts.
Thinking this way, the Vizier destroyed Orr knowing he would become the Lich, and now has an entire dead country to use as his army while trying to enact the Flameseeker Prophecies. I'm pretty sure he knew all about them before destroying Orr, and it was his plan all along. |
Ok, I was wrong about being wrong then
I think the Vizier never intended to become the lich. If he had really meant to, he wouldn't have waited till the Charr overran Orr. I stand by what I said, that after the Charr crushed Orr, the Vizier used his last capability to throw them back, destroying Orr. When the Vizier awoke as the Lich, he learned about the possible Titan interference with the Charr, and took steps to capitalize on the second coming of the Charr in the Flameseeker Prophecies.
My understanding is the Lich needed to get past the mursaat in order to call forth the titans. It was the mursaat that were preventing the titans from spreading across the land. Whats sort of confusing is back in the Maguuma(sp) jungle when your facing the white mantle... they have mursaat like monuments found again in the fire island. Yet when your in the shiverpeaks... example being the iron mines... the mursaat and the mantle do not seem to be getting along. I have seen them attacking eachother.
I almost have to wonder what the heck it all means. Mursaat are a pain in the ass... the charr destroyed ascalon... The mantle have their own little war going on and also try and kill the Vizor who we know is the Lich who is on their side anyway??? I'm giving myself a headache. Maybe I just better complete Last Days Dawn since I have it
I almost have to wonder what the heck it all means. Mursaat are a pain in the ass... the charr destroyed ascalon... The mantle have their own little war going on and also try and kill the Vizor who we know is the Lich who is on their side anyway??? I'm giving myself a headache. Maybe I just better complete Last Days Dawn since I have it
I'm not sure if this was said already, but think of it like this:
1) The charr worship the titans, and are their Gods. How on earth did they encounter them in the past is beyond me.
2) Perhaps the charr know of the prophecy. The titans most likely gave them the power to start the searing (if they already had such power they would have blown Ascalon to pieces some time ago). The charr had used the powers to intentionally create the searing. Thusly, they drove the chosen into the Nolani Academy mission, and thusly, the searing created a chain reaction that ended with the chosen being led by the Lich/Vizier Khilbron to the Ring of Fire to unleash their Gods.
3) The second-in-command charr are the charr lords, the third-in-command...well, do you remember in pre-searing, north of the wall, you can travel to the fire shrine that the charr used to conjure the searing? I think all those bosses there are the third-in-command, think of it as a High Council or the Elite Magi, or something of the sort.
4) The lich simply wanted to use the titans to rule Tyria. Not much relevancy there to that of the charr.
5) Vizier Khilbron most likely, as stated above, did intentionally create The Cataclysm. He was probably very aware that the dark magic from such powerful spells would be enough to be so unholy and...well...evil, that it would cause those killed to never find rest, bringing them back as undead.
6) The enchanted are just magical, animated sets of armor and weaponry, brought to "life" by the Forgotten, since they are mainly spellcasters, they had no chance at any melee/archery, hence the need to create them. Similar story with the Mursaat. Due to their inability to excel at much not related to magic, they animated jade and weapons to create Armors/Bows. Ever notice many jade bosses have Cairn in the name? (To name a few, Cairn the Troubling, Cairn the Smug) Maybe Cairn is a popular name...or maybe it's Mursaat-lingo for something like "elite combatant"?
7) The Mursaat, like the lich, don't really care much about what the Charr do with the Titans. They are one of the few races (next to the seers and charr) to know of the prophecy in full detail, and it says they will be destroyed by the Titans. Thusly, they must slaughter those destined to unleash the Titans and assure their doom. Thanks to Saul D'Alessio, the White Mantle worship the Mursaat, so they use them as pawns to do all the chosen-killing for them. The Mursaat prefer to be in hiding, their villages are deep in the jungle, and they did not show themselves until it was truly necessary for them to get involved (after the Crystal Desert, the Chosen have gained so much power and are getting so close that they, themselves, must help attempt to stop them).
1) The charr worship the titans, and are their Gods. How on earth did they encounter them in the past is beyond me.
2) Perhaps the charr know of the prophecy. The titans most likely gave them the power to start the searing (if they already had such power they would have blown Ascalon to pieces some time ago). The charr had used the powers to intentionally create the searing. Thusly, they drove the chosen into the Nolani Academy mission, and thusly, the searing created a chain reaction that ended with the chosen being led by the Lich/Vizier Khilbron to the Ring of Fire to unleash their Gods.
3) The second-in-command charr are the charr lords, the third-in-command...well, do you remember in pre-searing, north of the wall, you can travel to the fire shrine that the charr used to conjure the searing? I think all those bosses there are the third-in-command, think of it as a High Council or the Elite Magi, or something of the sort.
4) The lich simply wanted to use the titans to rule Tyria. Not much relevancy there to that of the charr.
5) Vizier Khilbron most likely, as stated above, did intentionally create The Cataclysm. He was probably very aware that the dark magic from such powerful spells would be enough to be so unholy and...well...evil, that it would cause those killed to never find rest, bringing them back as undead.
6) The enchanted are just magical, animated sets of armor and weaponry, brought to "life" by the Forgotten, since they are mainly spellcasters, they had no chance at any melee/archery, hence the need to create them. Similar story with the Mursaat. Due to their inability to excel at much not related to magic, they animated jade and weapons to create Armors/Bows. Ever notice many jade bosses have Cairn in the name? (To name a few, Cairn the Troubling, Cairn the Smug) Maybe Cairn is a popular name...or maybe it's Mursaat-lingo for something like "elite combatant"?
7) The Mursaat, like the lich, don't really care much about what the Charr do with the Titans. They are one of the few races (next to the seers and charr) to know of the prophecy in full detail, and it says they will be destroyed by the Titans. Thusly, they must slaughter those destined to unleash the Titans and assure their doom. Thanks to Saul D'Alessio, the White Mantle worship the Mursaat, so they use them as pawns to do all the chosen-killing for them. The Mursaat prefer to be in hiding, their villages are deep in the jungle, and they did not show themselves until it was truly necessary for them to get involved (after the Crystal Desert, the Chosen have gained so much power and are getting so close that they, themselves, must help attempt to stop them).
Cairn: a heap of stones set up as a landmark, monument, tombstone, etc.
Probably used as a name because the Jade statues are tombs of chosen souls, which power them. Whereas enchanted are, afaik, simply animated armor, Jades have chosen souls, bound to the will of the Mursaat, acting as power. The captain that takes you to RoF from Perdition mentions this.
The Mantle have Mursaat statues in many places (Temple of Tolerance, for example). It's possible the Mursaat left them for additional defence of the Mantle, or that the Mantle simply raised unpowered ones in honor of the Mursaat. The ones in Maguuma, however, are raised over the bloodstones, absorbing the charge.
At the Onyx gate, there is a small port where jade statues are packed for shipping. This leads me to believe that the charged statues in Maguuma are transported (probably by the Mantle) and shipped elsewhere as well. The shipping of statues is how the Mantle got them in the first place.
Just a random note about the Mursaat, it's fairly obvious who their leader is. Only one Mursaat has no title, and that's Optimus Caliph (Caliph : A leader of an Islamic polity, regarded as a successor of Muhammad and by tradition always male).
So his name is something like Optimized Leader?
Probably used as a name because the Jade statues are tombs of chosen souls, which power them. Whereas enchanted are, afaik, simply animated armor, Jades have chosen souls, bound to the will of the Mursaat, acting as power. The captain that takes you to RoF from Perdition mentions this.
The Mantle have Mursaat statues in many places (Temple of Tolerance, for example). It's possible the Mursaat left them for additional defence of the Mantle, or that the Mantle simply raised unpowered ones in honor of the Mursaat. The ones in Maguuma, however, are raised over the bloodstones, absorbing the charge.
At the Onyx gate, there is a small port where jade statues are packed for shipping. This leads me to believe that the charged statues in Maguuma are transported (probably by the Mantle) and shipped elsewhere as well. The shipping of statues is how the Mantle got them in the first place.
Just a random note about the Mursaat, it's fairly obvious who their leader is. Only one Mursaat has no title, and that's Optimus Caliph (Caliph : A leader of an Islamic polity, regarded as a successor of Muhammad and by tradition always male).
So his name is something like Optimized Leader?
Lol, it's possible. The forest troll leader in the WarCraft series, Zul'jin...some crude translations reveal that "Zul" means "Great" and "Jin" means "Leader". Great Leader...hehe.
Which statues? The jade ones (aka the ones that crumble into Jades near Markis, the ones surrounding the Shrine Of Mending at the Temple Of Tolerance, etc)? As seen at the end of Abaddon's Mouth, there are more of these "statues". These spires jut upward, supported by the ether seals at their bases. Other jade structures float in the air, linked to these spires, most likely helping power the door. They do not appear in the Hell's Precipice outpost. Either they did not want to bother with the graphic intensity, or they "collapsed" when the door was opened. In which case, for some reason they re-appear at the end of Hell's, when you return to the door.
Which statues? The jade ones (aka the ones that crumble into Jades near Markis, the ones surrounding the Shrine Of Mending at the Temple Of Tolerance, etc)? As seen at the end of Abaddon's Mouth, there are more of these "statues". These spires jut upward, supported by the ether seals at their bases. Other jade structures float in the air, linked to these spires, most likely helping power the door. They do not appear in the Hell's Precipice outpost. Either they did not want to bother with the graphic intensity, or they "collapsed" when the door was opened. In which case, for some reason they re-appear at the end of Hell's, when you return to the door.
Okay, here's what I'm pulling from the plot...
1) The charr invade Ascalon. Because that's what Charr do. Ascalon retreats to the mountains.
2) The Stone Summit dwarves just don't like anyone. So they attempt to kick out the Ascalonians who are now in their territory. The Ascalonians run to Kryta.
3) You work with the White Mantle to help make the area safe for the Ascalonian settlers as well as calm relations between Kryta and Ascalon.
4) You discover that the White Mantle are killing "chosen" people to please their masters. You join up with the rebellious Shining Blade to fight against them.
5) Khilbron shows up and tells you that while you may defeat the White Mantle, you are no match for their masters (the Mursaat). You have to go to the desert to ascend, and THEN you can trounce the Mursaat. We now know that Khilbron doesn't like the Mursaat.
6) It's the job of the Forgotten and their Enchanted pets to make your life difficult as you try to ascend.
7) You go to the Southern Shiverpeaks because your Deldimor buddies are having a rough time against the Stone Summit. In exchange, they'll offer to help you against the Mursaat.
8) Given that the White Mantle and the Stone Summit can be seen fighting in Iron Mines of Moladune, we know that the Mursaat and the Stone Summit are not getting along. But seeing as how the Stone Summit hate everyone, this isn't surprising and doesn't mean you've got new allies from anyone.
9) The Mursaat want to take you out because they know you are the only ones who can stop them (a la Flameseeker Prophecies, as learned from Glint). The seers want to help you because of an ages-long war between the two races. To hinder your progress, the Mursaat want to take out all your allies, hoping to isolate you and make you as easy to kill as possible.
10) You save Deldimor, so now the dwarves want to help repay the debt and take out the Mursaat. Which is what Khilbron wants. -Flash forward through RoF missions-.
11) So... Khilbron wanted the Scepter of Orr to have the power to control the Titans. The Mursaat feared the titans, and kept them locked away. Khilbron used you as a battering ram to free the titans. By controlling the titans, Khilbron also gains control of the Charr, who worship them. He couldn't control the Charr before, when he blew up Orr. But that Cataclysm made him a Lich, so he could gain the power needed to rule the world.
The Mursaat just sort of got in his way. Poor Ascalon got kicked around. I think the Charr might have been an unintentional side effect of controlling the Titans that just sort of worked out in Khilbron's favor. By killing lots of people, he could raise a big undead nation, with him at the lead. The titans were good at killing things. The charr liked killing things.
1) The charr invade Ascalon. Because that's what Charr do. Ascalon retreats to the mountains.
2) The Stone Summit dwarves just don't like anyone. So they attempt to kick out the Ascalonians who are now in their territory. The Ascalonians run to Kryta.
3) You work with the White Mantle to help make the area safe for the Ascalonian settlers as well as calm relations between Kryta and Ascalon.
4) You discover that the White Mantle are killing "chosen" people to please their masters. You join up with the rebellious Shining Blade to fight against them.
5) Khilbron shows up and tells you that while you may defeat the White Mantle, you are no match for their masters (the Mursaat). You have to go to the desert to ascend, and THEN you can trounce the Mursaat. We now know that Khilbron doesn't like the Mursaat.
6) It's the job of the Forgotten and their Enchanted pets to make your life difficult as you try to ascend.
7) You go to the Southern Shiverpeaks because your Deldimor buddies are having a rough time against the Stone Summit. In exchange, they'll offer to help you against the Mursaat.
8) Given that the White Mantle and the Stone Summit can be seen fighting in Iron Mines of Moladune, we know that the Mursaat and the Stone Summit are not getting along. But seeing as how the Stone Summit hate everyone, this isn't surprising and doesn't mean you've got new allies from anyone.
9) The Mursaat want to take you out because they know you are the only ones who can stop them (a la Flameseeker Prophecies, as learned from Glint). The seers want to help you because of an ages-long war between the two races. To hinder your progress, the Mursaat want to take out all your allies, hoping to isolate you and make you as easy to kill as possible.
10) You save Deldimor, so now the dwarves want to help repay the debt and take out the Mursaat. Which is what Khilbron wants. -Flash forward through RoF missions-.
11) So... Khilbron wanted the Scepter of Orr to have the power to control the Titans. The Mursaat feared the titans, and kept them locked away. Khilbron used you as a battering ram to free the titans. By controlling the titans, Khilbron also gains control of the Charr, who worship them. He couldn't control the Charr before, when he blew up Orr. But that Cataclysm made him a Lich, so he could gain the power needed to rule the world.
The Mursaat just sort of got in his way. Poor Ascalon got kicked around. I think the Charr might have been an unintentional side effect of controlling the Titans that just sort of worked out in Khilbron's favor. By killing lots of people, he could raise a big undead nation, with him at the lead. The titans were good at killing things. The charr liked killing things.
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Originally Posted by Mavrik
Yet when your in the shiverpeaks... example being the iron mines... the mursaat and the mantle do not seem to be getting along. I have seen them attacking eachother.
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Yes, a gambling, drunk, hopeless man, Saul D'Alessio was known for working in this notorious gambling guild. For a time, he was exiled into the Maguuma Jungle. He prayed for salvation or something, and he stumbled upon a village of creatures (the mursaat). They cleaned him up and took care of him, and, in turn, when returning to Kryta, he was like a messenger, spreading the word of these great creatures, and, under his leadership, the White Mantle was formed, and the charr were chased out of Kryta.
Hmm, I wonder how the Charr coped with the dwarves? Since the charr travelled to Kryta back near the end of the last Guild War, I don't know if the Summit was formed back then (some npcs say it's a very recently-started civil war), but how did the Deldrimor stand up against the Charr? Also, how did the Charr get through the Crystal Desert to the peninsula Orr was supposedly located on, or adjacent to without being devoured by the Sand Wurms and other creatures over there?
Hmm, I wonder how the Charr coped with the dwarves? Since the charr travelled to Kryta back near the end of the last Guild War, I don't know if the Summit was formed back then (some npcs say it's a very recently-started civil war), but how did the Deldrimor stand up against the Charr? Also, how did the Charr get through the Crystal Desert to the peninsula Orr was supposedly located on, or adjacent to without being devoured by the Sand Wurms and other creatures over there?
As far as I know it...
- Charr worship Titans, for having soooo much power (they met last time the Titans went walkabouts)
- The Titans are presumably creatures of the Underworld, and as such, can be controlled by the Sceptre of Orr, as can the Undead.
- I'm guessing that since the Vizier read the Forbidden Scroll in the vaults of Arah, he learned how to use the Sceptre to control these beasts.
- Meanwhile, the Mursaat are manipulating the White Mantle into destroying the Chosen to hold the Door of Komalie closed.
- The White Mantle enjoy this task (not good), and get a little, let's say over-zealous in this action; thus, some Krytans get suspicious and form the Shining Blade.
- The Vizier/Lich sees the White Mantle and Mursaat as a huge obstacle so sends you to Ascend so you can destroy them.
- You meet the Forgotten, the caretakers of Tyria and the guardians of the Prophet, Glint
- You push the Mursaat back and break open the Door of Komalie, thus allowing the Titans out again.
The Charr chain of command goes like this (I think):
Lich
^
Titans
^
Charr Lords
^
Normal Charr Bosses
^
Normal Charr
I have a question though; if the Mursaat were trying to stop the Door of Komalie opening, does that mean that they are good, and that the Seers are evil?
- Charr worship Titans, for having soooo much power (they met last time the Titans went walkabouts)
- The Titans are presumably creatures of the Underworld, and as such, can be controlled by the Sceptre of Orr, as can the Undead.
- I'm guessing that since the Vizier read the Forbidden Scroll in the vaults of Arah, he learned how to use the Sceptre to control these beasts.
- Meanwhile, the Mursaat are manipulating the White Mantle into destroying the Chosen to hold the Door of Komalie closed.
- The White Mantle enjoy this task (not good), and get a little, let's say over-zealous in this action; thus, some Krytans get suspicious and form the Shining Blade.
- The Vizier/Lich sees the White Mantle and Mursaat as a huge obstacle so sends you to Ascend so you can destroy them.
- You meet the Forgotten, the caretakers of Tyria and the guardians of the Prophet, Glint
- You push the Mursaat back and break open the Door of Komalie, thus allowing the Titans out again.
The Charr chain of command goes like this (I think):
Lich
^
Titans
^
Charr Lords
^
Normal Charr Bosses
^
Normal Charr
I have a question though; if the Mursaat were trying to stop the Door of Komalie opening, does that mean that they are good, and that the Seers are evil?
I think that the Mursaat and seers are the same species but two different factions and that the Mursaat won in a previous war against them and now the few remaining seers try to use the chosen to get revenge, perhaps orchestrated by the Lich to help the chosen open the gate of Komalie. I think the seers are really a bit out of the loop and problably are being played by the Lich. Poor guys.
Does anybody know exactly where Orr is supposed to be? I always thought that it was North of kryta, off the map, hopefully that northern area will be the new continent in an upcoming expansion and things will be much clearer.
Does anybody know exactly where Orr is supposed to be? I always thought that it was North of kryta, off the map, hopefully that northern area will be the new continent in an upcoming expansion and things will be much clearer.
Look at that scorched peninsula to the west of the Crystal Desert. That is supposedly part of of Orr - I mean, it is all scorched, The Cataclysm is a good cause for such. Many other islands are broken around that area, though the majority of Orr was probably thrusted into the sea, as mentioned in the manuscripts.
Perhaps the seers simply want to defeat the mursaat, and don't care for the titan aspect? I'm doubtful of that, but their race seems to mainly just be focused on fighting the mursaat.
Basically, the mantle and mursaat are, indeed, the good guys. The bad guys are the charr, the lich, and us (but we were tricked by what seemed to be an obvious traitor plot). It would not matter, though. The prophecy says we are supposed to let the titans out, knowingly or not.
Perhaps the seers simply want to defeat the mursaat, and don't care for the titan aspect? I'm doubtful of that, but their race seems to mainly just be focused on fighting the mursaat.
Basically, the mantle and mursaat are, indeed, the good guys. The bad guys are the charr, the lich, and us (but we were tricked by what seemed to be an obvious traitor plot). It would not matter, though. The prophecy says we are supposed to let the titans out, knowingly or not.
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Originally Posted by Eldin
Yes, a gambling, drunk, hopeless man, Saul D'Alessio was known for working in this notorious gambling guild. For a time, he was exiled into the Maguuma Jungle.
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| Basically, the mantle and mursaat are, indeed, the good guys. The bad guys are the charr, the lich, and us (but we were tricked by what seemed to be an obvious traitor plot). It would not matter, though. The prophecy says we are supposed to let the titans out, knowingly or not. |
Ok, reading through all the posts, the whole story is starting to make more sense. The first time I went through the story I missed alot of things, interesting what you pick up when you go through again.
