Spiteful Spirit Vs. Empathy

I know that some people (Avarre) have very strong views on this but I wanted to compare them and get feedback from everyone.

I will be comparing at 16 point att lvl

SS
Affects: Target foe and all adjacent foes
Trigger: Attack or skill use
Cost: 15e
Cast: 2 sec
Cool: 10 sec
Duration: 21 sec
Single foe damage: 37 per hit, DoT 584 (assuming continuous attacks at 1.33 attacks per second)
Multi-foe damage: 37 per hit*(number of adjacent foes), DoT......lots... vs 2 foes: 1168, vs 3 foes: 1752, etc

Emp
Affects: Target foe
Trigger: Attack
Cost: 10e
Cast: 2 sec
Cool: 10 sec
Duration: 21 sec
Single foe damage: 31 per hit, DoT 489 (assuming continuous attacks at 1.33 attacks per second)
Multi-foe damage: none


The similarities:
Recharge
Cast time
Cooldown
Duration

The differences:
Elite (SS) vs. Non-elite (Emp)
Cost: SS is 5 more energy
Damage vs single foe: SS is 6 more per hit
Damage vs multiple foes: SS is infintitely better (literally).

Multiple hexed targets: If you take into consideration that after 10 seconds a second hex could be applied (empathy or ss) to a second foe the differences are staggeringly huge.
Against 3 foes the difference in damage for the first 10 seconds are 602 more damage with SS in the second 10 seconds the difference is 1204 more from SS.

Over the duration of the hex SS will deal ~1800 more damage than empathy (assuming one hex applied at 0 time and one applied at 10 sec). I know that this is over simplified, but the numbers are close to accurate (I did not take into account cast times in the DoT).

So, using SS, for an extra 5 energy and the use of an elite slot you will get an extra 285 dmg vs a single foe and an extra 1800 dmg against 3 foes over the 21 second duration.


This does not even take into account that a necor could use Awaken the Blood to boost duration to 22 seconds and dmg per hit to 41, or that SS triggers when a target atttacks OR uses a skill while empathy is atack only.

Is SS overpowered? Is Empathy underpowered? SS is basically, as Avarre (I think) said, "Empathy on Steroids" so why is it a Necor Curse? or reverse that, Empathy is basically a weak SS so why is it a Mesmer Domination spell?

Discuss.

EDIT:

To Add in Meteor Shower
Affects: Target Foes Location and all foes adjacent to that location - KD + dmg
Trigger: Being in or adjacent to that location
Cost:25e (exhastion causing)
Cast:5 sec
Cool:60 sec
Duration: 9 sec
Single foe damage: 119 dmg + KD every 3 sec, DoT: 357 dmg + 3 KD's
Multi-foe damage: 119 + KD every 3 sec*(number of foes in location/adjacent to location), vs 2 foes: 714 dmg +6 KD's, vs 3 foes: 1071 dmg + 9 KD's, etc

The value of KD is debatable, but is it worth the loss in dmg, exhaustion, cast time, AND recharge? If you echo/glyph your MS your KD's become much more valuable but is it worth the energy cost? A'Echo is 15e (could use glyph of lesser energy) + 1st MS at 25e causing exhaustion + 2nd MS (could use glyph of energy) = at a minimum 35 e with 25 of that causing exhaustion (I may have missed something there but I think the costs are correct), and could only be used in this way once every 60 seconds.

I prefer SS. Maybe just because it's great for farming.

Insidious Parasite has essentially the same mechanic as both of these spells, except that it's damage is life-stealing, so i'd say that in essence, this type of spell is closer to the Curses line than the mesmer domination line.

anything doing more damage than a fire class should be nerfed.

I would always prefer SS for damage output, I think that is obvious.

Insidious Parasite seems to be like a necro skill should be, and it is about as powerful as you would expect a necro skill to be. The damage is less than empathy, but it is life stealing so it goes directly onto your health bar. All the life stealing spells cost a little more and damage a little less than their non-life stealing counterparts.

I am thinking that, although it is great for farming, why is SS so powerful and why is it a curse?

EDIT:

With all the E-Storage talk going on I decided to add in, just for comparison, one of the most widely used "big damage" elementalist spells - Meteor Shower

Quote: Originally Posted by dreamhunk

Quote: Originally Posted by Haggard

As well as pvp wise Spiteful Spirit the hex can be removed PLUS whoever you did put it on could always stop attacking or position themselves away from their teammates.Fire nuking spells happen no matter what so Spiteful Spirit in my opinion is not over powered.Then again in PvE sometimes Id rather take a Ss necro with arcane echo over a nuker.But back to the point Ss is alot more powerful than empthamy definatly.But thats why its elite : ).

The elite staus is worth that much extra damage?

Here is an example of 2 other spells 1 elite and one non-elite:
(again using Att level of 16)

Energy Tap
Cost: 5e
Cast: 3 sec
Cool: 25 sec
Target loses 7 energy, you gain 14 energy (net of 9e gain)

Energy Drain (elite)
Cost: 5e
Cast: 1 sec
Cool: 25 sec
Target foe loses 10 energy, you gain 20 energy (net 15e gain)

The difference of having the elite is faster cast, by 2 sec, and more energy gain, 6e more gained.

or these

Heal Other
Cost: 10e
Cast: .75 sec
Cool: 3 sec
Heals target other ally for 190 hlth

Word of Healing (elite)
Cost: 5e
Cast: .75 sec
Cool: 4 sec
Heals target other ally for 84 hlth, additional 106 if target is below 50% (total of 190)

the difference of going elite is 1 sec longer cooldown, 5e less to cast, and IF target is below 50% they heal the same otherwise it will heal for 106 less than the non-elite.

Interesting way to look at it, but I really don't see how you can compare an AoE to a non AoE.

Quote: Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

I don't really understand what you are asking here. Almost all of the elite skills are just better versions/combinations of non-elite skills. You pick your elite based off of what skill in your build would be most beneficial to you in a stronger form. I know this isnt true to all elites, but you get my point. Besides that, empathy and SS are from two different classes...if im a mes/n im probably gonna go with empathy over SS unless its a farming situation where I know SS will do its damage no matter what

SS for Heroes Ascent and against casters. Empathy for small smale battles against warriors and rangers.

Off topic but mesmers need some good aoe skills...that can be used by them for the highest effect.
(added so that it excludes visage)

I know SS/SV necro's have a couple of utility skills on their skill bar sometimes. So when say in UW they cast SS. Could they spam Empathy on the enemys aswell as SS and get double damage?

Just a thought.
Weeping

I had a thread over here a month or 2 back, Have a look at the arguments i had presented, + I am just going to start a new thread about the so called "AOE" issue.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=98545

Quote: Originally Posted by Weeping Wind

Have Frenzy added in.

Lol... why would anyone compare SS and Empathy? if anything use both and stack em on top of each other. While you at it, toss in Insideous Parasite and type "laf." I mean really... these hexes are complimentory if anything, not like I'm gonna sweat which one to use.....

Assuming you are talking in the context of PvP:

First up, you are using a Necro for your SS. One of the strongest points of Necros is they have access to one of the best energy management skills in the game without locking down their secondary: Offering of Blood. Sadly, SS is also an elite. A Necromancer without OoB loses a lot of it's ability to fill a support role, something necromancers are very good at.

Secondly, SS and Empathy both do the same thing, they stop a Warrior from using Frenzy. This does gimp their spike considerably, and it puts a bit more pressure on the monks, but it isn't really that powerfull. Certainly not worth losing your elite slot over.

So in short, in a Hex build that had to have a dom mesmer, I would run empathy. I would probably not run SS on the Necro, instead I would run OoB and be able to spam the standard hexes more. In a non hex build I would run neither, because it will be removed faster than you can say "Our Build
Sucks".