Illusion build for CA

This is something I've been trying for a change, I have mixed feelings about it;

1 Power Drain
2 Ether Feast
3 Conjure Phantasm
4 Ethereal Burden/Imagined Burden
5 Phantom Pain
6 Crippling Anguish/Migraine
7 Illusion of Weakness
8 Res sig

12+1+3 Illusion
10+1 Inspiration
8+1 Fast Casting

Items: Rockmolder + Vokurs (40% recharge on illusion spells)

It's a very interesting build, to say the least, Ethereal Burden+Crippling Anguish can totally shut down warriors, where Migraine can do the same for monks, pair it with imagined burden and it's an easy target for your opponents. Conjure Phantasm is a good cover hex together with Phantom Pain and Illusion of Weakness equals an extra 250 health.

I somewhat wish I didnt need ether feast... I could put both ethereal burden and imagined burden in there and go Migraine fulltime.... power drain is too amazing for energy management, and on occasion you need to interrupt. Perhaps I should drop Illusion of Weakness... though, 250 extra health........

Now if monk support is 100% sure, you can go:

1 Power Drain
2 Leech Signet
3 Conjure Phantasm
4 Ethereal Burden
5 Phantom Pain
6 Migraine
7 Imagined Burden
8 Res sig

UPDATED; after some discussion for CA

1 Power Drain
2 Leech Signet
3 Conjure Phantasm
4 Ether Feast
5 Phantom Pain
6 Migraine
7 Imagined Burden
8 Res sig

Critics and counter arguments->

"Degen Sucks"

Degen is a tool to win, just like damage.You can ofcourse generalize, and I would agree with you that the damage doesn't compare to other characters, however, putting it down so easily is underestimating it. In this specific build you can get the max degen (20d/sec) and you can spread it around more targets. There really is no argueing with degen sucks because it's an opinion. Either way - in my opinion, and my experience, degen does not suck, if you use it right.

"CoP and Holy Veil owns your build"

Why yes, and elemental resistance owns elemental damage. And crippling anguish owns runners, and infuse health owns spikers. Everything has its counter but there are ways around those two skills. First of all, CoP is self only, so targetting someone else while the monk is busy with your allies is a solution here. Another solution is to tempt the monk using their CoP on a spell like imagined burden or Conjure Phantasm, especially burden can be a major annoyance when you're facing hammer warriors, for instance. After CoP is used (ever) throw on migraine+PP+Conjure while your allies still attack the same monk, interrupt holy veil and interrupt healing touch.

Also, don't cast Migraine on a monk that has Holy Veil on him. You notice it immediatly when he/she does because it makes you cast twice as long. Instead, put a hex like PP Conjure or Burden on him/her, or all three, 9/10 those hexes will be removed. and if not, they run around with 8 degen, and 50% slower, easier target for warriors and rangers and AOE casters DOE.

"Phantom Pain doesn't work in this build, you don't have shatter hex!"

Think outside of the box. This isn't a spike build, it's an illusion build, PP has the EXACT same cooldown as migraine, so it's the perfect cover hex for migraine together with conjure. The energy cost is high, yes, but you got two skills for interrupting that net you a lot of energy. And a Migrained Opponent is easily interrupted. Also, PP adds to the degen while you can see this as a minor thing, see my first point, it really isn't. Degen can be very powerful, you can always twist over this that "degen sucks" but I've gotten too many kills with degen to agree with you. And unless CA and TA is nothing but noobs/inexperienced players those kills weren't against people who didn't know what they were doing.

"Throw out Migraine and put Arcane Conundrum in there"

Migraine lasts 5 seconds longer (16 vs 21) has a 5 second shorter cooldown aswell and adds degen.

Even when Migraine only added degen, there are 8 elites that would qualify for this build (no attribute/illusion/inspiration elites) and none of them are quite as effective. Also, the skillbar is full, and you will need everything in there, what elite would you add and what skill will it replace? I'm open for suggestions but so far I haven't heard any that would improve this build in any way.

"Mantra of Persistance?"

Good in theory, lasts 30 seconds, high energy cost, hexes (other then burden) don't need to last so long, I find myself rarely using it after the first time. Leech Signet works better for me, but by all means, do what you like best.

I really like the concept, retty much a shutdown build. Uncommon to see shutdown illusion builds though, i like it. However, if there is one criticism i must make it is that you did not use your secondary profession, and i believe it could be used to improve this character.

Yes indeed, I never expected this of illusion either.

However, you don't need distortion or anything because of the burdens warriors are totally shutdown. If you go with Imagined+Ethereal / Crippling+ Ethereal you can keep 2 warriors slow at the start, with some luck with fast casts you can do this more often. At the very least you can keep 1 down permanently.

Casters like monks absolutely hate migraine, together with one of the burdens, phantom pain as a cover hex and conjure phantasm they have a very hard time against you. If they were to remove Phantom Pain for instance they'd only kill themselves. And if you went the migraine route or the last build you'd have an easy time interrupting (=gaining energy for more).

Since you're using illusion hexes and have points in Inspiration might I suggest Mantra of Persistance?

It'd probably have to replace Ether Feast, but you've got IoW for an emergency heal if things get rough.
Don't have a chart in front of me to check the numbers, but with 11 in Inspiration your hexes will all last around 80% longer.

I'd probably drop a couple of points from illusion and reinvest them in inspiration to get close to 100% longer duration.

Finally, I wouldn't recommend Phantom Pain as a cover hex - the cast time is too slow, even with the 9 in Fast Casting you have. Stick with Phantasm for the cover then slap PP on top.

That's a most excellent idea.

What I run now is:

1 Power Drain
2 Ether Feast
3 Conjure Phantasm
4 Mantra of Persistance
5 Phantom Pain
6 Migraine
7 Imagined Burden
8 Res sig

I just need self-heal, I really feel that I'm missing 2 or 3 skillslots though (leech signet, IoW and Ethereal Burden). Mantra prooves to be a most excellent cover hex, and also allows me to have Migraine on two targets at once

Quote: Originally Posted by Nessaja

Quote: Originally Posted by Draracle

Quote: Originally Posted by Nessaja

I have to disagree with you, interrupt the holy veil, if your allies can't take care of a monk that is crippled, takes twice as long to heal, and has 10 degen on him (and a deep wound) then you really arent the one to blame.

You can't do everything.

In the mean time you can degen another peron to death.

Excuse me? Interrupt veil with what? Any protboon monk will throw off migrane instantly, and degen does not hurt much.

Degen sucks in PvE and PvP

The only time degen is viable is mass degen, in 8v8 when you place hexes on everyone, etc. Phantom pain, migrane and conjure, for one thing are removed easily, and 20 damage a second? Laughable.

Most protboons go into battle with holy veil on them already. There will be nothing to interrupt, your conjure coverhex will take 2x as long, giving time to remove veil and take off migrane.

Yes, you can say 'you can still get kills with degen in CA' but CA is not a good field to show a build that really works well or not. You can say that 'only good monks will be able to remove my migrane' but if your entire build hinges on only running into poor players, then some rethinking needs to take place.

You realize that the holy veil we need to be replaced at some point, at that point you can interrupt it.

It's all about finding a weakspot.

I'm sure it works fine in TA aswell to be honest. I'd rather not use it in 8v8. But it's not mae for 8v8 so that's a non-issue.

I've created a balanced build, that works good allround, not monk specific. Especially if you face a monk build that is meant to counter mesmers you won't come far, well duh, welcome to the real world. I don't want to sacrifise going anti-monk only when I have a big chance of running into warrior groups. And since you can't specialize in CA you have to be balanced, which is exactly what this build is.

Asociating CA with noobs by definition is undermining and elitist behaviour which I'd rather not comment at, 1. Because it's not the discussion at hand and 2. Because I'd rather not have this turning into a flamewar.

Point is however, that not everything works in CA, your elitist build that might be amazing in GvG or TA might just suck hardcore in CA, depending on your opponents.

In the thread's defense, Avarre, the thread doesn't say that the build is excellent for HA or GvG or anything. The title specifically says CA.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nessaja You realize that the holy veil we need to be replaced at some point, at that point you can interrupt it. With WHAT?! The builds you've posted are migrane mesmers with ONE interrupt, that has a 25s recharge time. Even if the monk doesn't have veil, so what? You can interrupt his one orison or remove hex, then you're basically just a conjure-spammer for 25 seconds.

When making a build, consider what you're making it for. This build is some kind of migrane interrupter snarer degenner frankenstein monster that doesn't do any of them particularly well.

Perhaps you are incapable of reading my post. I stated that this build wouldn't raise a sweat off a good player, and if the build can only work on inexperienced players, what is the point. At no time did I state, or imply, that CA was populated by inexperienced players. I stated that CA was not a good field to see whether a build works well or not. You can argue with that all you like, but you'll be wrong. You'll also note I never used the word 'noob'. This was only brought up by you, I call newer players what they are, 'inexperienced players.' Don't start a flamewar yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nessaja Point is however, that not everything works in CA, your elitist build that might be amazing in GvG or TA might just suck hardcore in CA, depending on your opponents. I'm an entirely PvE / Ca player. I try to avoid gvg and hoh discussions because my knowledge there is limited. I've seen paladins win in CA, does that mean that is a good build? The team can carry you, a poor team can drown a good build. This is why CA is not a good field for proving a good build. Migrane mesmer builds are decent. But they usually carry 2-3 interrupts and some form of enchant removal (to mess up Veil and CoP). You say you've created a build that works well 'all around.' Unfortunately, I don't see it actually posing a defineable threat to anything that it works at. Disagree if you like, you're entitled to your view and don't need to listen to me if you don't want to. Now, to be helpful and not just spiteful... 1 Power Drain 2 Ether Feast 3 Conjure Phantasm 4 Mantra of Persistance 5 Phantom Pain 6 Migraine 7 Imagined Burden 8 Res sig You're trying to do too many things here... you need at LEAST one more interrupt, enchant removal wouldn't go badly either. Perhaps use Power Leak (I know it's domination, but it works fairly well at low level and it recharges much faster than leech signet) in place of imagined burden. Snares are well and good, but they aren't much use if casters can still run amok. Phantom pain could be swapped out for drain enchant, but it's probably still beneficial to the build as it's a decent 145~ damage after 15 seconds (counting persistance at 50% for example). This can help against noncasters as well, although if you're going with phantom you might want to not use persistance, in favor of distortion. When enemies see what you're doing, they'll want you dead and ether feast isn't really a good selfheal. I'd actually prefer to take drain enchant in place of feast...

Quote: Perhaps you are incapable of reading my post. I stated that this build wouldn't raise a sweat off a good player, and if the build can only work on inexperienced players, what is the point. At no time did I state, or imply, that CA was populated by inexperienced players. I stated that CA was not a good field to see whether a build works well or not. You can argue with that all you like, but you'll be wrong. You'll also note I never used the word 'noob'. This was only brought up by you, I call newer players what they are, 'inexperienced players.' Don't start a flamewar yourself. You try to state it as a fact, that's the problem, it's an opinion. I do fine against a range of players, wether they are good, amazing or terrible. Becuase you can't comprehend that I can do good with it even against good players doesn't mean it's a fact.

You DID state that CA wasn't a good way to test a build that was MADE for CA. You can argue all you like but that's twisted, if you're just wrong you can also say that you are wrong.

This is not a Migraine Mesmer, it happends to be in there because it's a nice addition to the rest of the build, I've also used Crippling Anguish in my build, my aim never was to be a shutdown mesmer, rather an annoyance with degen, crippling warriors and making sure that casters can't get away either.

Quote: Either way, with the changes I have made I've been very succesful, in CA, and after 10 wins in TA aswell. Looks like your opinions don't really apply to reality. Screenshot! Screenshot please!
I don't have a strong opinion about CA/TA builds. Although my build differs, if you can win consistently with your own build, keep winning with your build. Don't let Avarre bully you .

Quote: Originally Posted by Nessaja You try to state it as a fact, that's the problem, it's an opinion. I do fine against a range of players, wether they are good, amazing or terrible. Becuase you can't comprehend that I can do good with it even against good players doesn't mean it's a fact. I'm not failing to comprehend that you can do well against good players. I'm failing to comprehend how you think a random monk in CA is neccessarily good without providing evidence. Proof please!


Quote: This is not a Migraine Mesmer Then drop the skill, bring conundrum which will last almost the full recharge time with persist, and bring a different elite.



Quote: Yes, enemies want me dead badly, because they soon realise that I'm trouble. That's why I packed snares, the spell you would take away immediatly is the key to survival most of the time, Phantom Pain is crucial, it adds to the degen, deep wound is damage, why would you take that out. Mend ailment is 5 energy to completely reverse the entire effect of you 15+s phantom pain and deep wound. I don't like the spell much unless you can at least covercondition it to mess up healing on the target. If a snare is a key to your survival (meaning warriors are killing you) perhaps distortion?

Quote: All together what you are trying to do is making some form of cookie-cutter build which I find doesn't work against the huge variety of classes and sub-classes you meet in CA. Putting imagined burden and conjure phantasm on a warrior is not 'working.' 1 warrior with healing signet will demolish you, because you don't really have anything to kill him with. Don't try to say degen, the debate has raged on the functionality of it and using 3 skills to do 20d/s is about as effective as wanding.

Quote: Originally Posted by Avarre I'm not failing to comprehend that you can do well against good players. I'm failing to comprehend how you think a random monk in CA is neccessarily good without providing evidence. Proof please! One thing that worked for me, when a Monk brings CoP and Holy Veil, stop attacking him and let your teammates deal with him. Spread degen on the other players.

Quote: Then drop the skill, bring conundrum which will last almost the full recharge time with persist, and bring a different elite. No. Migraine, while not build around the skill, just like crippling anguish, works excellent with this build. Wether I just interrupt two crucial skills while the rest of my team spikes, or if I got a warrior / ranger that interrupts a skill.

Quote: Mend ailment is 5 energy to completely reverse the entire effect of you 15+s phantom pain and deep wound. I don't like the spell much unless you can at least covercondition it to mess up healing on the target. If a snare is a key to your survival (meaning warriors are killing you) perhaps distortion? And an inspired hex can negate all hexes while giving energy.. and a Healing Touch negates lightning orb + lightning strike + lightning surge. I'm not saying that it's the most uber 1337 skill aoround, but it works fine.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nessaja
No. Migraine, while not build around the skill, just like crippling anguish, works excellent with this build. Wether I just interrupt two crucial skills while the rest of my team spikes, or if I got a warrior / ranger that interrupts a skill.
How is that a reply? Conundrum has the same effect as Migrane, minus that -6 hp/s. Interrupt 2 crucial skills? You have the capacity to interrupt only one spell, unless you have a teammate (a negatable fact, if the other side has a certain teammate you lose the hex as well). Prove to me how migrane works so much better than conundrum. Both can be kept up constantly, 6d/s is nothing. With the empty elite slot, you could bring something else.

The only sensible reasoning to take migrane over conundrum is you don't really have an elite that's better suited. Both burden/anguish are continual and the degen is discountable as well. The reason migrane is more used, for one thing, is you can keep it up continually without needing persistance (leaving a space for distort / phy res).

Quote: And an inspired hex can negate all hexes while giving energy.. and a Healing Touch negates lightning orb + lightning strike + lightning surge. I'm not saying that it's the most uber 1337 skill aoround, but it works fine. Orb strike and surge have a combined damage of approximately 300. Touch doesnt touch that kind of damage

Cover hex ftw (what did you think conjure phantasm is for? Actually killing people?).

I never said phantom was a poor skill... I just don't think tossing it out randomly without any skills that work with it is the best idea.

Quote:

One thing that worked for me, when a Monk brings CoP and Holy Veil, stop attacking him and let your teammates deal with him. Spread degen on the other players. That can work, but it depends quite alot on the other team. Too often a protboon monk tanks 3 members of a team without too much hurt. Best to sub in drain enchant somewhere, and tear down the monk. Quote: Sigh, it doesn't happen with every team from random arenas. It was without a primary monk aswell. But whatever really if you want to be thickheaded, don't use the build, I'm doing good with it and I'm sure that if you gave it the chance and stop talking about what should happen in theory you might have succes with it aswell. Excuse me? This is the mesmer build forum, where you post builds for critique. Furthermore, you haven't actually given any qualitative or quantitative information of how the build works best in its current form, besides 'oh it works well for me'. I've put up a few numbers, comparisons with other skills, and suggestions. If anyone, its you being thickheaded.

Quote: Originally Posted by Avarre How is that a reply? Conundrum has the same effect as Migrane, minus that -6 hp/s. Interrupt 2 crucial skills? You have the capacity to interrupt only one spell, unless you have a teammate (a negatable fact, if the other side has a certain teammate you lose the hex as well). Prove to me how migrane works so much better than conundrum. Both can be kept up constantly, 6d/s is nothing. With the empty elite slot, you could bring something else.

The only sensible reasoning to take migrane over conundrum is you don't really have an elite that's better suited. Both burden/anguish are continual and the degen is discountable as well. The reason migrane is more used, for one thing, is you can keep it up continually without needing persistance (leaving a space for distort / phy res). Leech signet and power drain are two interrupts..

I'm using a modified version of the second one in the original post, where ethereal burden is replaced by ether feast. One of the good things about this is that Leech signet also interrupts Heal Sig/Troll Ungent, yes they have a high cooldown, but if you use them with caution, killing goes in a quick burst of damage anyway, so save it for that moment.

Why Migraine is better then Arcane Conundrum, well you could argue that it has a lower cooldown, and you got 6 seconds of having it on two characters. But that's not the reason.

The problem is that I only have 8 skillslots, and thus I need to utilize the skill slots as much as possible. If I had 2 more skill slots I would agree with you, but I just don't. On the other hand, there is no other illusion skill around that I would use other then crippling anguish. Ineptitude and Illusionary Weaponry aren't an option, fevered dreams isn't for this build. The other three options are energy drain, mantra of recall and keystone signet, from which I wouldn't use any either.

And then you have Echo and Signet of Midnight, I "might" use signet of midnight, but using an elite for blind is something that I would only do against rangers, as warriors don't pose much of a threat. In addition, I'd need to drop imagined burden but I can't say that I like that setup better at all.

So what were you suggesting as you seemed to have something in mind?

Quote: Orb strike and surge have a combined damage of approximately 300. Touch doesnt touch that kind of damage

Cover hex ftw (what did you think conjure phantasm is for? Actually killing people?). was under the impression that they both did 100 each instead of 150, I'm a mesmer player. not an elementalist. You should get the point though, everything can be negated. If it's 300 Touch + Orison ? 10 energy for 30

A cover hex gets removed by inspired hex aswell.. sigh, the point is that everything has a counter, give me a build and I can think up a counter, doesn't even have to be a rare build.

Quote: I never said phantom was a poor skill... I just don't think tossing it out randomly without any skills that work with it is the best idea. How is it random when it adds to the degen, is fully utilized with 16 in illusion, and nets you one of the best conditions in the game. It fits just fine.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nessaja Leech signet and power drain are two interrupts.. Quote: Originally Posted by nessaja What I run now is:

1 Power Drain
2 Ether Feast
3 Conjure Phantasm
4 Mantra of Persistance
5 Phantom Pain
6 Migraine
7 Imagined Burden
8 Res sig Meep.


Quote: And then you have Echo and Signet of Midnight, I "might" use signet of midnight, but using an elite for blind is something that I would only do against rangers, as warriors don't pose much of a threat. In addition, I'd need to drop imagined burden but I can't say that I like that setup better at all. I'm not suggesting anything, except that you try slightly other things to improve the build. Considering your focus is to cause havoc on as many targets as possible, echo might be useful.


Quote: was under the impression that they both did 100 each instead of 150, I'm a mesmer player. not an elementalist. You should get the point though, everything can be negated. If it's 300 Touch + Orison ? 10 energy for 30 Touch is closer to 150, actually... and you miss the point. Ball and Surge are not skills you'll cast constantly, but spike skills. This tactic is used to completely deny a chance to heal (as I'm sure you know).

Quote: A cover hex gets removed by inspired hex aswell.. sigh, the point is that everything has a counter, give me a build and I can think up a counter, doesn't even have to be a rare build. *blink* The point... of a cover hex... is to be removed... instead of the hex... it is covering...