EVSoH vs. EVSoW

I am a Ranger who uses the Barrage build. So I have two choices in one of the Ebon Vanguard Standard of skills.

If I use EVSoH, I would buff my own attacks.

However, if I use EVSoW, I would buff my 7 spellcaster heroes.

Which one should I use?

My Ranger uses a Barrage Build.

My Spellcasters are the Discord/Mes/spiritway.

More information required; post specific builds.

EBSOH is better IMO. Why? Because buffing barrage is better than getting 1 less recharge on Discord or 6 less recharge on Putrid Bile. Death Nova is on 0 recharge. Mesmer stuff is on 5-8 recharge each after Fast casting and the limiting factor is energy. If you're running Keystone mesmer, then EBSOW will be useless.

Spirits' recharge isn't going to be changed by EBSOW after all.

I agree with LifeInfusion. Heroes are typically bad at energy management, so making their skills more spammable just ensures that they will have additional energy problems.

+damage ftw. Besides, it's more fun to see big yellow numbers from your own barrages.

Quote: Originally Posted by Miteshu

I am a Ranger who uses the Barrage build. So I have two choices in one of the Ebon Vanguard Standard of skills.

If I use EVSoH, I would buff my own attacks.

However, if I use EVSoW, I would buff my 7 spellcaster heroes.

Which one should I use?

My Ranger uses a Barrage Build.

My Spellcasters are the Discord/Mes/spiritway. probably need more physical damage to justify EBSoH, in my opinion. I love that skill though... why not take both? Go R/E with glyph of lesser energy, all points in marksmanship and expertise. let the ritualists put Splinter Weapon on you. If you are so inclined you could even load up Conjure.

Quote: Originally Posted by Skyy High

+damage ftw. Besides, it's more fun to see big yellow numbers from your own barrages. this.

i couldnt care less about how my heroes are doing damagewise.

i want to see big yellow numbers coming from me. thus, on my physical characters, i always have:
orders, strength of honor, judges insight, splinter weapon, etc.

Doesn't EVSoH buff spell damage as well? Although I suppose it isn't as significant. Although I have to agree EVSoH is far more worthwhile than EVSoW, perhaps to make it seem more cost effective, you could switch out one spell caster for another Barrage or IA ranger.

Minions also benefit from the buff so if you've got them as meat shields, that makes EVSoH much more beneficial.

Quote: Originally Posted by Arieon Ito

Doesn't EVSoH buff spell damage as well? Although I suppose it isn't as significant. Although I have to agree EVSoH is far more worthwhile than EVSoW, perhaps to make it seem more cost effective, you could switch out one spell caster for another Barrage or IA ranger.

Minions also benefit from the buff so if you've got them as meat shields, that makes EVSoH much more beneficial. It buffs physical and elemental damage, it does not buff armor ignoring damage like RoJ, VoR, Spiteful Spirit, Discord. Minions won't stay in the EBSoH so it probably won't do much for them unless you're talking about bone fiends (ranged attacks).

This shouldn't even be a contest. EBSoH is ridiculously good. Both of the others are crap. I had to check wiki just to figure out whether the EBSoW was the crappy +armor or the crappy + recharge, because they are both equally crap. EBSoW should never be on any bar unless you are running some kind of gimmicky caster damage build (watch my eyes roll back into my skull until they bleed).

Quote: Originally Posted by Kunder

Quote: Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Quote: Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

EBSOH is better IMO. Why? Because buffing barrage is better than getting 1 less recharge on Discord or 6 less recharge on Putrid Bile. Death Nova is on 0 recharge. Mesmer stuff is on 5-8 recharge each after Fast casting and the limiting factor is energy. If you're running Keystone mesmer, then EBSOW will be useless.

Spirits' recharge isn't going to be changed by EBSOW after all. +15 damage vs. 600 damage every two second. The 1 second less recharge on discord sounds appealing.

you have to realize that some spells dont cant have a 40/40 set.

shadow arts, for example, does not have a 40/40 yet has spells. (though which spells would be viable for EBSoW beats me).

an important one is the ghostly spells when fighting dhuum. speeds it up a few minutes.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kunder

Yes, gimmick builds like that.

1. lol tank n spank.
2. lol not 7 heroes is it?
3. You massively overestimate its effectiveness because you forget it only stacks multiplicatively with 40/40 mods. Its actually only a 40% increase in HSR rate, equal to a 20% decrease in skill recharge time on average. Also, I would normally not mention this, but since you linked to a shitty build that requires consumables it becomes even weaker since it (again...) doesn't stack well. Now its a 10% recharge time decrease. I'm sure that 14s recharge instead of 16s recharge on RoJ is really damn awesome, right? Oh wait, its tank n spank so if you failed to kill the enemy on the first salvo you fail horribly at guilds wars anyways. The power of arcane echo and echo is that you can use the spell again IMMEDIATELY, not later when the battle is already over.

Of course, when you have 8 or even 12 players you can bring as many shitty PvE skills as you want in your build if they marginally improve your performance by a few %. That doesn't make them good PvE skills, it just means that when you have 96 skill options and 36 PvE skill options any party wide buff, no matter how weak, is usable because there is literally nothing else to bring. I have never seen so much fail in one post before. No point in trying to explain this to you since you've clearly already made up your mind.

For everyone else in this thread, EBSOW gives 60% chance of HSR for everyone on every single spell at no charge. Staffs give 20% chance of HSR for all spells, but this stacks multiplicatively, so it is 60% + (0.2 x 40) = 68%. I like to use staves because the 20% chance applies to all spells, even PvE skills that are spells, e.g. EVAS, Snow Storm, etc. It also applies to spells from a different attribute or from a secondary profession.

If you Arcane Echo something like Ray of Judgment you can cast two of them in 20 seconds at a cost of 15 additional energy for Arcane Echo. EBSoW gives a 68% chance of getting the same result for every spell on every character, and the only cost is 10 energy from the player... everyone else gets the benefit for free. If you still think that is worthless then I don't know what to say.

p.s. in addition to the energy cost for arcane echo, it has 50% downtime... it works for 20 seconds, then recharges for 20 seconds. EBSoW can be kept up 100%.

Quote: Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I have never seen so much fail in one post before. No point in trying to explain this to you since you've clearly already made up your mind.

For everyone else in this thread, EBSOW gives 60% chance of HSR for everyone on every single spell at no charge. Staffs give 20% chance of HSR for all spells, but this stacks multiplicatively, so it is 60% + (0.2 x 40) = 68%. I like to use staves because the 20% chance applies to all spells, even PvE skills that are spells, e.g. EVAS, Snow Storm, etc. It also applies to spells from a different attribute or from a secondary profession.

If you Arcane Echo something like Ray of Judgment you can cast two of them in 20 seconds at a cost of 15 additional energy for Arcane Echo. EBSoW gives a 68% chance of getting the same result for every spell on every character, and the only cost is 10 energy from the player... everyone else gets the benefit for free. If you still think that is worthless then I don't know what to say.

p.s. in addition to the energy cost for arcane echo, it has 50% downtime... it works for 20 seconds, then recharges for 20 seconds. EBSoW can be kept up 100%. You have me sold.

Quote: Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer I have never seen so much fail in one post before. No point in trying to explain this to you since you've clearly already made up your mind.

For everyone else in this thread, EBSOW gives 60% chance of HSR for everyone on every single spell at no charge. Staffs give 20% chance of HSR for all spells, but this stacks multiplicatively, so it is 60% + (0.2 x 40) = 68%. I like to use staves because the 20% chance applies to all spells, even PvE skills that are spells, e.g. EVAS, Snow Storm, etc. It also applies to spells from a different attribute or from a secondary profession.

If you Arcane Echo something like Ray of Judgment you can cast two of them in 20 seconds at a cost of 15 additional energy for Arcane Echo. EBSoW gives a 68% chance of getting the same result for every spell on every character, and the only cost is 10 energy from the player... everyone else gets the benefit for free. If you still think that is worthless then I don't know what to say.

p.s. in addition to the energy cost for arcane echo, it has 50% downtime... it works for 20 seconds, then recharges for 20 seconds. EBSoW can be kept up 100%. I have never seen so much fail in one post before. OK, thats a bit of a lie since I've seen some ridiculously dumb things in my life, but you aren't failing for lack of trying.

Arcane Echo != EBSoW. EBSoW is a % for HSR. AE is a 100% ability to double use the spell. Being able to use a spell NOW is different from being able to use it LATER. By the time LATER comes the enemy is dead and all you have your thumb up your ass wasting time and energy on a PvE skill that provided pretty much no benefit. As I said, EBSoW is merely a -20% recharge on average. That is ridiculously crappy for a PvE skill slot unless you have 24-36 PvE slots available, in which case it gets in by virtue of not being so crappy that you can't fill empty space with it. You seem to be getting lost in the "HSR" part of it without considering the "%" part of it and how it stacks, and finally the total net average benefit from bringing the skill. Do you perchance play the lottery?

The fact that you are using sub-par equipment to make EBSoW appear better is laughable. If you are casting spells and recharge is a factor then you use 40/40 or you are bad at guild wars (exception for +20% enchants, of course). The fact that you mention EBSoW also being able to affect EVAS and Snow Storm is also laughable, because those are shitty skills. Great, one shitty PvE skill can make another shitty PvE skill slightly less shitty. That's a good idea.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kunder I have never seen so much fail in one post before. OK, thats a bit of a lie since I've seen some ridiculously dumb things in my life, but you aren't failing for lack of trying.

Arcane Echo != EBSoW. EBSoW is a % for HSR. AE is a 100% ability to double use the spell. Being able to use a spell NOW is different from being able to use it LATER. By the time LATER comes the enemy is dead and all you have your thumb up your ass wasting time and energy on a PvE skill that provided pretty much no benefit. As I said, EBSoW is merely a -20% recharge on average. That is ridiculously crappy for a PvE skill slot unless you have 24-36 PvE slots available, in which case it gets in by virtue of not being so crappy that you can't fill empty space with it. You seem to be getting lost in the "HSR" part of it without considering the "%" part of it and how it stacks, and finally the total net average benefit from bringing the skill. Do you perchance play the lottery?

The fact that you are using sub-par equipment to make EBSoW appear better is laughable. If you are casting spells and recharge is a factor then you use 40/40 or you are bad at guild wars (exception for +20% enchants, of course). The fact that you mention EBSoW also being able to affect EVAS and Snow Storm is also laughable, because those are shitty skills. Great, one shitty PvE skill can make another shitty PvE skill slightly less shitty. That's a good idea. You still do not understand. Read this more carefully.
And I doubt that anyone else would say that EVAS (Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support) is a terrible skill, it is used everywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer If you Arcane Echo something like Ray of Judgment you can cast two of them in 20 seconds at a cost of 15 additional energy for Arcane Echo. EBSoW gives a 68% chance of getting the same result for every spell on every character, and the only cost is 10 energy from the player... everyone else gets the benefit for free. If you still think that is worthless then I don't know what to say. so here's the math: RoJ: 1 cast every 20 seconds, because of 20 second recharge 20% chance of HSR with staff 36% chance of HSR with 40/40 set average recharge: .2(10)+.8(20) = 18.0s with staff average recharge: .36(10)+.64(20) = 16.4s with 40/40 with EBSoW: 60% chance of HSR for every spell 68% chance of HSR with staff 73% chance of HSR with 40/40 set average recharge: .68(10) + .32(20) = 6.8 + 6.4 = 13.2 with staff average recharge: .73(10) + .27(20) = 7.3 + 5.4 = 12.7 with 40/40 As you can see, the difference between staves and 40/40 sets is minimal when the chance of HSR is this high, so all of your arrogance/rudeness/whatever about staffs being bad is not only uncalled for, it's just wrong. With Arcane Echo you can get 4 casts of RoJ guaranteed with your staff, assuming a 20% enchanting mod, with 36% chance of getting 5, and 12% chance of getting 6. This won't work at all with a 40/40 set since you can't have an enchanting mod on that, so you would lose 2 casts of RoJ when Arcane Echo ends. With EBSoW alone you are getting an average of 5 casts in the same time with either staff or 40/40, as opposed to having a 36% chance of getting 5 casts. And EBSoW affects everyone else, and it works with any secondary, and it lets you use 40/40 if you want, *AND* it even costs less to use. *AND*, you can use EBSoW and Arcane Echo together to get even more benefit, as shown here. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...ay_of_Judgment Next time get your facts straight instead of just getting angry.

Quote: Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer You still do not understand. Read this more carefully.
And I doubt that anyone else would say that EVAS (Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support) is a terrible skill, it is used everywhere. Unless you have AP, its a terrible skill.

Quote: Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer so here's the math:
RoJ: 1 cast every 20 seconds, because of 20 second recharge
20% chance of HSR with staff
36% chance of HSR with 40/40 set
average recharge: .2(10)+.8(20) = 18.0s with staff
average recharge: .36(10)+.64(20) = 16.4s with 40/40

with EBSoW:
60% chance of HSR for every spell
68% chance of HSR with staff
73% chance of HSR with 40/40 set
average recharge: .68(10) + .32(20) = 6.8 + 6.4 = 13.2 with staff
average recharge: .73(10) + .27(20) = 7.3 + 5.4 = 12.7 with 40/40 Congrats, thats the same math I gave you in my first response. I'm glad you figured it out by now.

Quote: Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer As you can see, the difference between staves and 40/40 sets is minimal when the chance of HSR is this high, so all of your arrogance/rudeness/whatever about staffs being bad is not only uncalled for, it's just wrong. So recharge matters when you use calculate EBSoW, but it doesn't matter when you are calculating 40/40? Yes, thats a TOTALLY honest way to bias the results.

Quote: You are missing the point. EBSoW is spending a *PvE* skill (something that should be ridiculously useful, ala SY/WA/CA/AS/GDW/EBSoH) to make things recharge faster, but by the time RoJ is recharged with or without it the enemy should be already dead. PvE is not about standing still in a ward 24/7 and seeing how much DPS you can make, its about killing groups and moving on. EBSoW does almost nothing for that, and it certainly doesn't do enough to be worth one of THREE pve skill slots. Ignoring this is ignoring the whole basis on which PvE operates. As I have mentioned, Arcane Echo is a TOTALLY different scenario because you can reuse the skill immediately (also doubles as amazing energy management, but what ever). Stop even trying to compare them. I am using heroes, and heroes do like to stand around.

Battles last around 20 seconds.

EBSoH is the same thing as standing around and see how much DPS you can make. So by your logic, EBSoH isn't good.

EBSoW is for my heroes, not for myself. Using three discord, Instead of 300 damage for every 2 seconds, it'll be 300 damage for every second, or 600 damage every 2 second.