Tone Down AP

meh, it's not used for farming, it's not overpowered dmg, it is an elite skill and therefore qualifies to be powerful, it doesn't need to be nerfed. please put ur nerf bat away and stop swinging before you break something you didn't intend to break >_<

EVAS isn't the only problem (hello Finish Him) but it's a HUGE, in fact THE biggest one. The damn thing is worth 400-600 damage. Most minions/spirits/pets etc are balanced by crap damage and slow attacks, the AP/EVAS combo lets you easily add 3-4 disposable assassin henchmen to your party. Even if just henchmen, that is hugely better than almost anything any caster can do. AP-MoP nuking has theoretically been around forever, it was just not that big a deal until they got their EVAS to spam alongside and trigger it. Limiting EVAS to one summon at a time would not fix everything, especially since the bulk is in their opening combo, but would go a very long way. Maybe if the summon failed if one already existed instead of replacing the old.

Because this is not abused by speed clears and is mostly an H/H build I doubt Anet will have the guts to do it, but I would very much like to see this addressed.

Flourish? I imagine that would help you more than AP and it's much more reliable.
The thing is, Death Blossom is simply the best Dual Attack for an Assassin in PvE and it has a short recharge - nothing but damage really matters that much when you're a physical and getting to DB in the shortest possible time is the best way to deal it.
With that in mind, the only skill I can see benefiting from a reduced recharge in this way is Jungle Strike (follow from Black Mantis Thrust and go into Death Blossom).

I stopped caring about PvE balance after the SF nerf. It makes the game a lot more enjoyable.

I believe the bar I had used Black Mantis Strike -> Jungle Strike -> Trampling Ox -> Falling Lotus Strike -> Blades of Steel, Death Blossom, or Twisting Fangs (I dont remember which). I believe I used Shadow Fang just for the fun of it as well. Regardless of how this compares to the standard DB spam build, it still shows that AP would still have its uses if option 2 were implemented.

Yes, it is supposed to be powerful but not godly. Even though its a sin skill. This thing is probably the most powerful elite (with the exception of SoS which I also think needs a slight tone down) available to all of the casters. It may not directly be OP damage but it certainly leads to OP damage.

Well there are still those of us who do care about PvE balance

OP Get off the nerf train it never stops. What is next after this one? When will you people learn that it will do no good?

Yep, should've just left SF and Ursan alone, game would clearly be better. >_>

Personally I don't think anything is wrong with AP. Its the PvE skills that get used along side it that are OP and need hitting by the nerfbat. When the skill first came along only a handful of builds actually used it, such as AP nukers, although that came with the massive drawback, exhaustion.

So no I don't think it needs a nerf, but all the PvE skills that get used with it that need some kind of toning down.

This. AP isn't the problem. PvE Skills are.

They are both problematic. The PvE skills need to be nerfed, or preferably removed, but AP is part of the problem as well. Nerf both.

If the PvE skills were removed or nerfed to oblivion, how is AP still problematic?

This.

If we are going to begin toning down PvE, start by removing/nerfing virtually every PvE skill. Then stuff like AP (which would not be nearly as effective without the likes of OP PvE skills like YMLAD, FH, EVAS) can be considered.

Ok Snow...

1. We've had this discussion before you and I.. thought I talked sense into you then.

2. PvE is already RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed... Just keep ridin the train man, it's not gonna get better.

3. AP isnt the problem, it wouldnt EVER be used if it wasn't for discord, so nerf discord.

4. The build isn't used for any MAJOR farming builds or exploitive builds.

5. Nerfing PvE skills is only going to patch the problem it's not going to solve the Discord problem. and if you nerf the pve skills all the terribad players will QQ and then theres more crying threads we need to weed thru.

6. Remember after reading this how much you love me and don't kick me

7. Nerf discord anytime plz..

/sigh
The OP is asking to kill a very gimmicky skill that allows for abusing the already overpowered pve skills, not some core game mechanic. Since Anet doesn't seem to want to listen to pve skill changes on guru (except when there's 4 threads on riverside with a mass bitchfest), just making AP recharge only sin skills would stop the abuse.

Since primary sins never use this skill anyway, I don't see what's the big deal in making this skill "useless"

/signed for suggestion 2

Why nerf things for PvE anyways? All it does is force us to use the next batch of skills.
And things like Discord aren't overpowered from what I can see. It already requires both a condition AND a hex. What else should be done to it? Make it deal psis damage?

What is overpowered is playing smart. Not Discord. Not Assassin's Promise. Whatever.

But the only reason to nerf in PvE is to shaken up the meta. And I really don't see how nerfing AP will make things more fun. Furthermore, I'm getting quite tired of people complaining left and right that "___ IS THE EASY MODE BUTTON!" and that "HARD MODE IS TOO EASY!" Honestly, I seem to doubt that some of these people have even played the game before they request for a change. Because there is nothing easy about vanquishing the entire game to all players, even with skills like Signet of Spirits.

Another thing that grinds my gears is people complaining about PvE skills killing the game. How so, I ask? Because one moment people are moaning about how they aren't being chosen for elite areas, and the next they're complaining because the newest skills in the game can be used by any profession? WTF?

If players want an impossibly challenging game, go play mushihimesama on the highest difficulty. Guild Wars is an rpg. And guild wars is not a game that can be made "harder" just like that more than it already is without becoming frustrating.

With all due respect, I know you were trying to be helpful.

But this kind of nerf request comes very close to "global griefing." Start a campaign to nerf a skill that many players like to use and thus cause them unhappiness. No, just no.

GW has lost too much of its player base over the years due to injudicious use of the nerf bat. Let's just not go there again.

Try reading some of the PvE skill descriptions and then tell me they aren't overpowered.

Pve skills and cons have diluted the game where it takes absolutly no skill or effort to clear an area. You don't need to change your bar to counter specific mobs, you just need more cons. Even in the elite areas, the only "skills" you need is the knowledge where specific mobs pop up and how to ball them. If you don't think that's poor game design, then stop reading my posts.

Since when are skill balances supposed to be fun? Originally they were intended to stop different professions to blow through pvp, but I guess now we need to incorporate a "fun factor" into our skill suggestions.

Vanquishing is a joke with cons, you can just flag your h/h and let them do the work while you surf the web. I've done it in many areas of factions and nightfall.

Discord isn't actually of any concern. I can think of good uses of AP where Discord heroes are not used.

PvE skills arnt the only skills abuseable by AP. Others like MoP can be abused as well.

Really, I still don't understand all of the opposition to this suggestion. PvE may be in a state of disrepair but that is not a reason for not trying to fix it. Skill balances are healthy for the game and nerfs are necessary to slow down power creep. AP is overpowered. Therefore, it needs to be nerfed. It is that simple.

Yes, I did think about this one, but I concluded it was really the only non-pve skill I could really make such strong use out of with AP since its only balancing factor is the recharge and the fact I need to have some sort of coordination in my team to really make it insane. But even the AP-MoP bar loses a lot of its power if the PvE skills are taken away - I'd have to go back to stocking up on Curses and only MoP and Rigor Mortis gain anything from AP.

The other common use of AP is to recharge some of the Ele fire and earth skills and it's laughable to say that's overpowered and cause for concern. What else could I sensibly do on a caster? Maintain Aegis and help fuel a few other prots?