Why do we hate grind, but accept farming?

There's a certain paradox concerning the loot system, player behavior, and the GW economy. We say we hate grind; doing the same thing over and over, completing the same objectives time and time again, repeating the same missions......but when something happens that shakes up farming, people rage. They want their farming routines, they want their stable economy sources, they want to be able to use certain builds to run routes for the exact same rewards in the exact same way.

Are we content with the way things are?

People tend to follow the path of least resistance when going after what they want, and this is quite logical and practical. In the context of the game, this means farming; the drops in the area in question tend to be the same, the monsters don't change, so get the perfect build and have at it until you get what you are looking for. The result is grind.

Apparently, according to rants and complaints and commentary, we don't like grind, even when we create it for ourselves. So, what can be done?

If we want to avoid grind, it isn't enough to change a few skills, or adjust a few drop rates, or change a monster or three. We need to talk about the basic incentives and mechanisms of obtaining what we want in this game.


So. Skill and Time.


We here this a lot, in regards to pretty much everything in the game. In many cases, it is fulfilled within the game; a skillbar is the same as the next, but how you use it differs, armor and weaponry are the same, but your tactics will change. There is, however, a problem.

Loot is Time based.

Because of the random factor, loot is essentially based on how much time you spend farming something, waiting to get lucky. Want a particular sword? Go to the area it drops, and farm. Repeat. Eventually, you might, keyword might, get the sword. If it DOES drop, it doesn't mean you did any better than anyone else after the sword, it just means you were lucky, or spent enough time there to get lucky.

Yet on the same note, if there are defined paths to a sword (slay monster X, bring item Y to location Z, then hold for five minutes while facing mob A to protect NPC B), people can repeat THOSE steps as much as they wish to get what they want in the same manner.

Therefore, Riverside, I have a question. How would you make the loot system better?

Should it be competitive, similar to Challenge Missions, rewarding better loot to more skilled players?
Should it be long-distance questing like the Black Moa Chick, requiring vast travel to assemble a final product?
Should it be single-use quest based like Kerrsh's Staff, with a specific reward for a specific quest?
Should it be incrementally assembled, like Destroyer Gloves, built from random rewards that are obtainable in a wide variety of locations and acquired through normal gameplay?
Should it be based on a set of specific challenges, like Mission Books?
Should everything be obtainable via trader, with prices determined by the community?
Should it be a healthy mixture of all these things, with no specific emphasis?
Or are you happy with the way things are now, or have a different idea?

How would you make the loot system better, both for the individual and for the economy as a whole?


TL;DR version: we all talk about grind being bad, but we love farming. Is there a better way, then, to have people strive for the loot they want that emphasizes skill rather than time spent?

Grind == Farm.

Farm == Grind.

Superfluous...

Most people say they want rewards as easily/efficiently as possible. Generally this means some or another grind is the best way to achieve the reward. They whine because they want the reward badly and but must put up with grind to get there quickly. No one would whine about grind if they didn't feel stuck doing it.

The farming shakeups everyone whines about are when the rewards become ever so slightly harder to obtain. Some nerfs hit, people need to spend time relearning/mastering new builds, and in the end the new adjustments are slightly to significantly slower. You don't see as many complaints when some new busted skill makes better farming possible, as when a nerf happens.

The bottom line is that rewarding the most skilled players, even if possible in PvE, is largely self-defeating. Most of your playerbase isn't skilled and yet you still want them to play. This is the truth I think GW2 will be modeled on.

I'm with Coney here.

Either define your "we" or leave me out of it.

I've always favored an unlock system where accomplishments unlock items, and you pay a nominal (gold) fee to spawn it on any character once you unlock the item on your account. Rare skins are given for completing content shorthanded, quickly, or what have you. Then make all of these items impossible to trade.

This does several nice things. If you make the tasks hard enough, you can eliminate running (even as a barter system of "I run X and you run Y") for rare skins. You eliminate gold selling entirely. You create a new secondary market for players to actually play the accounts of others for RL cash, but anyone should see that's a lot riskier than paying a gold seller.

It also disincentivizes power creep, because you have to make pay artists to make new rare skins if everything becomes common as a result of some new OP build.

It'll never happen, because the system eradicates the need for a virtual economy. ANet wants to sell games to power traders, too.

The hypothetical we, no accusations or forced inclusions implied.

Some Farm because they like to and want in-game wealth.

Some farm because they have to, its not their fault it's the flaw in the random drops and loot scaling. Data was collected a long time ago showing the flaws in HM in a all human party and H/H vs. solo. Even though people hate to grind farm it has its purpose you need gold to buy things.

Where grinding title have serve no purpose other then to stroke bad players ego in to thinking they are the best in the game.

Because not all actions are a grind. Farming is not a necessity and those that do it usually find it fun and/or easy thus not really a grind for many, whereas grinding a title to get something for GW2 is a grind. Farming is not required for GW2 because money and/or loot is not going to transfer to GW2 whereas titles or something of value for those titles will.

Another thing to consider without grind really this game would be dead because of lack of new content. Let's face it everybody by now has a 15^50 weapon and all the max runes they need so there's really nothing to play for except stupid childish vanity items. Stupid Mini pets who cares pashaw. So it's either wealth or fame that keeps most of the ones that are left playing. I guess anything after a certain point can be considered grind when there's really nothing of value to play for. So I always relate grind to when the game becomes boring and of no real value other than just killing time.

Also something that is easy and/or fun to do even if repetitive does not feel like a grind. Grind usually defines as something repetitive and boring that is REQUIRED to gain something of value or future value at a cost of much TIME and not much skill as can be related to SF and 600 smite builds. There is no skill to them and they reduce TIME for some things that are considered a grind.

I on the one hand DO NOT LOVE farming. I'd rather have unlimited new content than have to repeat one part of any part of the game over again. I will only farm to get an item (green item usually) that I can't seem to find any players selling. I will only farm resources for the Traveler because each week it's something new and I will farm Z-Keys because each day there's some new old place to go and it doesn't feel repetitive althought it is at old places in the game. Mostly I'll play the Z-Keys Zashien PVP areas like Random Arena, Fort Aspenwood and Jade Quarry and Alliance Battles. Even though the zones are repetitive (I do wish they would change victory conditions in them) usually I get to play against new players and that is more fun than playing against the same stupid AI and doesn't feel like a grind.

But, in GW unlike most other MMOrpgs you aren't really required to grind you do so by choice not a requirement as you can do/finish the entire game chapters without grinding anything other than level 20. You don't need to fill Hall of Monuments to finish any chapter, you don't need torment or destroyer weapons to complete the games/chapters. You don't need a single title to complete the game although you do need a certain amount of Sunspear levels to get out of noobland of Nightfall so that might be the only required grind I know of. Other MMOrpgs you pretty much are required to grind Each level hours and hours, then you have to grind resources and or cash if you want to BUY necessary upgrades to compete at higher level difficulties.

So once again in GW there is only grind if you choose to grind for silly stuff as nothing is required short of Sunspear basic grind to get off newbie island and that is so easy a caveman can do it. )

Here's an idea! make dungeons shorter so we don't have to resort to lame farming or running builds to do them! Keep it to a 30 min marker and we'll see a halfway decent economy! Since everything will then be on the same price point instead of one area being farmed for hours and dropping in value we'll see even prices!

through pvp characters, 1.5k armor, and collectors, we don't need to grind/farm one single goddamn thing.

but most of us want to look pretty so we do, knowing as far as playing the game goes doesn't change.

Farming and grind both get you some level of reward in either items, skills, etc.

I consider farming grind because it generally forces me to use builds that I generally don't enjoy and has me play by myself. Basically grind.

When I farm, I think "I want X, so I need to do Y, probably many times..." It's my choice, since it's my goal. It's more voluntary, even though it still may not be interesting and entertaining. There is a reward for me at the end.

Grind, on the other hand, is thrust upon me, and not something that I set out to do. "I have to get Norn Rank to to get into Ursan groups, so I have to grind reputation points..." (OK, old example, but still valid.) Someone told me that I need rank 10, or I can't get into groups. It wasn't my choice. I get no reward...

Seems like a simple equation to me. Fundamentally, was it my choice? Yes = fun, no = grind.

Another lame worthless complaining thread. Gezzzzzzzzzz, if people are so damn unhappy with GW or any other MMO for that matter quit. LOL, plain and simple.

I am supprised that Guru puts up with these sort of things. Complaints.

I feel sorry for guru and anet.

I have an idea, lets make a mmo called Complaints and bitching hack and slash.

Have classes such as, complainers, whinners, bitchers, overpowerd so nerf me, etc.

this right here, also farming can be nice enough ( only really do it at easter but still). where as I consider grind need a sunspear rank of X to continue campaign or needing certain norn rank X for armor etc.

Agreed, no *we* ASS-ump-tions...

We think we hate grind.

I just farm a bit, sell everything that drops and add more plat to my storage and shit like that...

This post is hilarious, because out of this whole thread, this seems the most like whining and bitching.

He's complaining about how people complain way too much about GW. Quite frankly, I don't blame him and I agree with him.

Seeing as how only the dedicated players of a given game will visit a forum, register and post, its not hard to see why a good amount of people on this forum complain about the game, and even more who try to offer constructive criticism, which of course is blasted by trolls.

As to the OP, Grind is not the same as Farming. Farming is an "alternative gamestyle" if you prefer, whereas in lieu of pursuing content, a player repeats areas by choice for coveted items or other drops and such.

Grind is that which is imposed on the player and gives him or her no choice, such as at one point having to grind Sunspear points to advance the storyline. It could also be argued that once content has been completed once (i.e. completing the EoTN campaign), anything afterwards is grind, if it requires the player to re-play a given area just to be able to play further areas, famously the r10 Norn title for Ursan runs.

Farming can be fun and enjoyable, seeing a rare drop gives many a sense of accomplishment. Grind on the other hand is repetition for its own sake, and is no substitute for randomized or new content. I would say that one of the reasons games like Diablo 2 can still be fun is because enemies and areas are randomized, such that a player never quite knows what he or she will face, hence these areas are quite replayable to a point.