The problems with the SF and other farming nerfs is manifold.
1. Only a small part of the people will ever be outgoing enough to want to be with and enjoy everyone. Beyond that, small groups are the human norm. In the study of man, no dig site of more than 15 or more population has been found without signs of violent conflict.
2. The extreme range of skills, class options, and varied skill bar arrangements means that not ever collaborative effort can succeed. In fact, since one cannot readily change classes and set up skill trains with the same numerical effect and merely different graphical presentation, learning to be successful with all ten classes is made highly difficult.
3. Very occasionally skills will be dependent upon other skills effects in order to work. Each class that has skills that depend on an effect can cause that effect relatively easily. There are no skills that depend entirely on effects caused by other classes, nor are the symbols on the screen sufficient to make that kind of opportunity useful. Especially under the lag which is normally suffered throughout the game. So truly interactive team builds are at best very limited.
The justification for nerfs have been under concepts of balancing PvP skills, and increasing multi-player instead of solo play. It is similar to the recent changes in monk and rit skills that have wiped many of my most useful skill bars. They are aimed at eliminating the effectiveness of heroes so as to force more multi-player play.
4. Even GW has had to admit that PvP and PvE cannot adequately be consolidated under the skill systems which have been employed. Constant rebalancing for PvP has continuously led to the destruction of PvE enjoyment to such an extent the skills are now separated. The separation of these styles of play is due to: i. Differences in lag making PvP the game for those who can afford to purchase elite machines and elite ISP services, ii. Differences in personality and culture on the nature of what is acceptable competitive behavior, and iii. How are defined definition cooperation, competition, and opposition. (Competitors have respect for one another, and in my experience, this is not observable in the PvP environment.)
5. Solo play is preferred on one hand because one has a higher chance of getting drops, even with loot scaling. Interest in getting more drops is based upon two completely different purposes. One of these is greed: people want drops that they can sell to others because they are 1337 in some way. Another is the desire to obtain certain items not available except in drops because they go with a character’s theme. Those who are only looking for money will rarely be concerned about the entertainment value of plot, theme, and appearance. The game stories mean little or nothing to them. Those who are plot and theme oriented are more concerned with their entertainment and will at some level of mild to greatly resent the forced farming in order to find or purchase what entertains them. Under both conditions, botting, e-baying for gold, or other EULA violations have been inspired in order to achieve entertainment. Those who want the gold obtained through sales do not want players to be able to do things for themselves and oppose anything that would disrupt their accumulation of wealth. Those who are more interested in theme and role play will rarely if ever have the wealth needed to purchase from those only concerned with sales.
One example of a game item like this is the Superior of Vigor, which I have read is limited to one per character in drops. That remains ludicrous. I have 30 characters. I have had 2 Sup of Vigors drop in 3 years of play. I ought to be able to put a Superior of Vigor on 3 armors per active character from drops alone. Someone else has all my Sup of Vigor drops and I cannot nor will I ever be able to afford them. Further, I will be denied the ability to play effectively in the different suits of armor I collect (and yes that 9 health matters, I have seen people survive to make a difference on less than 9 health too many times in three years). And so people farm in order to be effective when they play and to get the things that will make their play fun.
These nerfs intended to change the nature of what we are as a species will fail in their objective. We will never be willingly more social than we are naturally. We can be forced to work together unwillingly, and as we can see by the devastation of Yugoslavia, Iraq, etc. this kind of liberal forced love policy is superficial at best. The inspiration to work separately from others has always been based on the lack of effectiveness in PUG’s and in obtaining those things that make one’s play both entertaining and effective. The interest in going outside the economy provided can only be understood in the marginalization of enjoyment in order to force team play and bolster a trade system that has never been enjoyable. In summary, the reason for the nerfs is an attempt by the powers that be to make up for things they cause to be unenjoyable while still leaving these things unenjoyable, inefficient, and contrary to human nature.
The problem with the nerf bat seems to be the purpose behind swinging it
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| After repeated adjustments to both the skill and the Underworld, Shadow Form continues to dominate PvE farming. All the adjustments we have made to this style of farming have aimed to slow players down but not eliminate it as a viable farming option. |
Anet is FINE with people doing solo farms all they want, their complaint is that this is edging out all other farming builds, and cheapening certain sectors of the economy. You didn't need a team to farm stuff before shadow form, and you won't after.
(And ironically, the largest abuse of the skill is in an 8 MAN UWSC team.)
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Constant rebalancing for PvP has continuously led to the destruction of PvE enjoyment to such an extent the skills are now separated.
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PvE is dead because of the same reason that PvP is dead.
A.Net pulled the plug.
You simply can not put the blame onto one format for receiving the NEEDED attention while the other one didn't.
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One example of a game item like this is the Superior of Vigor, which I have read is limited to one per character in drops. That remains ludicrous. I have 30 characters. I have had 2 Sup of Vigors drop in 3 years of play. I ought to be able to put a Superior of Vigor on 3 armors per active character from drops alone. Someone else has all my Sup of Vigor drops and I cannot nor will I ever be able to afford them. Further, I will be denied the ability to play effectively in the different suits of armor I collect (and yes that 9 health matters, I have seen people survive to make a difference on less than 9 health too many times in three years). And so people farm in order to be effective when they play and to get the things that will make their play fun.
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2) Can't afford 16k after 3 years of play?
3) You can run around with no runes/inscriptions and be effective in PvE. Heck, you could be naked in some areas. So, I don't think that 9 health is keeping you from being "effective."
I don't see why people are crying over [[Shadow Form]. In PvE, it can still be maintained at 14+ Shadow Arts with [[Glyph of Swiftness], [[Deadly Paradox], and a perfect enchanting mod. Similarly, A/Me or Me/A can maintain Shadow Form by just using [[Arcane Echo] and Deadly Paradox (Cast Deadly Paradox before Arcane Echo).
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| Very occasionally skills will be dependent upon other skills effects in order to work. Each class that has skills that depend on an effect can cause that effect relatively easily. There are no skills that depend entirely on effects caused by other classes, nor are the symbols on the screen sufficient to make that kind of opportunity useful. Especially under the lag which is normally suffered throughout the game. So truly interactive team builds are at best very limited. |
I think there is plenty of synergy to be found in team builds. It is just that some of those are not the best builds to be used.
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| i. Differences in lag making PvP the game for those who can afford to purchase elite machines and elite ISP services |
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| 2. The extreme range of skills, class options, and varied skill bar arrangements means that not ever collaborative effort can succeed. In fact, since one cannot readily change classes and set up skill trains with the same numerical effect and merely different graphical presentation, learning to be successful with all ten classes is made highly difficult. |
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| Wow. This is the best of the worst QQ post I've ever seen. |

I agree with Upier. Skill rebalances hardly "destroy the PvE enjoyment." I primarily play PvE and ENJOY skill balances tremedously.
People who complain about their PvE builds being nerfed by a skill BUFF are the same people who just steal their builds off PvXwiki and don't do any thinking for themselves.
For example, look at the talk page for the skill "Hundred Blades" on the wiki. There are TONS of people screaming about how this was a nerf (because they couldn't use it to build up adrenaline anymore) even though..
A) the axe options or whirlwind attack that had + damage was already a better option
B) it deals the same damage as the old HB (non-armor ignoring ~20 slashing damage to adjacent foes), but instead with EVERY swing of the weapon, instead of once every 5 seconds.
C) It now has a larger aoe
D) Its an aoe slashing damage skill, something that hasn't really existed before and allows for tons of damage with Mark of Pain
Look at the warrior subforum. People there have already come up with tons of new builds and uses for the new overpowered HB, getting over 500 damage per second on various farming builds. People on the wiki's talk notes are still complaining about how it is a nerf.
People who use their brains adapt to skill balances and come up with new builds. People who are lazy complain and then steal those new builds once they are popularized.
People who complain about their PvE builds being nerfed by a skill BUFF are the same people who just steal their builds off PvXwiki and don't do any thinking for themselves.
For example, look at the talk page for the skill "Hundred Blades" on the wiki. There are TONS of people screaming about how this was a nerf (because they couldn't use it to build up adrenaline anymore) even though..
A) the axe options or whirlwind attack that had + damage was already a better option
B) it deals the same damage as the old HB (non-armor ignoring ~20 slashing damage to adjacent foes), but instead with EVERY swing of the weapon, instead of once every 5 seconds.
C) It now has a larger aoe
D) Its an aoe slashing damage skill, something that hasn't really existed before and allows for tons of damage with Mark of Pain
Look at the warrior subforum. People there have already come up with tons of new builds and uses for the new overpowered HB, getting over 500 damage per second on various farming builds. People on the wiki's talk notes are still complaining about how it is a nerf.
People who use their brains adapt to skill balances and come up with new builds. People who are lazy complain and then steal those new builds once they are popularized.
Note to OP:
The fact you are draggin philosphy into the world of GW is laughable. This GAME is run on a business model. If the A-Net team had there choice i think they would have done things a little differently from start to finish. However, hindsight is 20/20, and now they have to sleep in the bedthey have made. GW2 is in the works and if i had to guess they are goin to have to spring that title sooner then they would like to.
The economy being what it is will force A-Net to deliver the new title before all interest in GW is lost. People walk away from GW every day not because they dont like the game but because the are BORED TO TEARS!
PvP and PvE skill balance updates are added simply to give the common player soemthing to work with, something to conquer and overcome. I dont think A-Net gives two Poops about the human condition or whether we will kill one another if were in groups of more then 15.
Cronk
BTW in china they found literally 1000's of human remains together in a valley. no evidence of violence was present. it was dated to the 12 century AD. \Sourced from National Geographic.
The fact you are draggin philosphy into the world of GW is laughable. This GAME is run on a business model. If the A-Net team had there choice i think they would have done things a little differently from start to finish. However, hindsight is 20/20, and now they have to sleep in the bedthey have made. GW2 is in the works and if i had to guess they are goin to have to spring that title sooner then they would like to.
The economy being what it is will force A-Net to deliver the new title before all interest in GW is lost. People walk away from GW every day not because they dont like the game but because the are BORED TO TEARS!
PvP and PvE skill balance updates are added simply to give the common player soemthing to work with, something to conquer and overcome. I dont think A-Net gives two Poops about the human condition or whether we will kill one another if were in groups of more then 15.
Cronk
BTW in china they found literally 1000's of human remains together in a valley. no evidence of violence was present. it was dated to the 12 century AD. \Sourced from National Geographic.
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Originally Posted by Upier
You simply can not put the blame onto one format for receiving the NEEDED attention while the other one didn't.
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Originally Posted by Enko
in about 2 years of playing, i've picked up maybe 25-30 superior vigor runes. whoever you heard that rumor of one sup vig per character from was an idiot.
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Originally Posted by Parson Brown
1) You certainly aren't limited to finding 1 sup vigor per character.
2) Can't afford 16k after 3 years of play? 3) You can run around with no runes/inscriptions and be effective in PvE. Heck, you could be naked in some areas. So, I don't think that 9 health is keeping you from being "effective." |
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Originally Posted by FoxBat
Anet is FINE with people doing solo farms all they want, their complaint is that this is edging out all other farming builds, and cheapening certain sectors of the economy. You didn't need a team to farm stuff before shadow form, and you won't after.
(And ironically, the largest abuse of the skill is in an 8 MAN UWSC team.) |
R
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as was stated above, there is no set amount of sup vigors per character slot. that is simply horse squeeze. ive gotten literally dozens of them. especially just doing a little solo farming of ettins or naga. You can can a couple a week. you dont need to invest 18 hours a day to be an elite "playa"
Cronk
Cronk
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first of all...why the $#@! do you have 30 chars? there are 10 professions, so even if you for some reason wanted 1 male 1 female of each thats only 20 slots
secondly i play 2-3 hours a day, some days not at all and i have no problem affording my 15k armors and all the weapon swaps i need
make one of your dervs into a runner, chest runner or town to town runner, plenty of money to be made there, and you can do it all day without worrying about the farming code kicking in
droks at 2k a head with a full party is 10k for a 10-15 minute run
Ascalon-la is usually 1.5k-2k a head
a full tyrian run (ascalon-beacons, down to droks, up to toa, out to sanctum and through the desert, the whole shebang) i can usually get 25-30k per head making close to 200k for an hour to an hour and a half's work
and if you need a running build, pm me ingame
<---ign
secondly i play 2-3 hours a day, some days not at all and i have no problem affording my 15k armors and all the weapon swaps i need
make one of your dervs into a runner, chest runner or town to town runner, plenty of money to be made there, and you can do it all day without worrying about the farming code kicking in
droks at 2k a head with a full party is 10k for a 10-15 minute run
Ascalon-la is usually 1.5k-2k a head
a full tyrian run (ascalon-beacons, down to droks, up to toa, out to sanctum and through the desert, the whole shebang) i can usually get 25-30k per head making close to 200k for an hour to an hour and a half's work
and if you need a running build, pm me ingame
<---ign

