Can /Rants about Ursan at least ACKNOWLEDGE Complexity?

I know forums don't lend themselves to nuanced discussions much, what with people having the attention spans of crack-addled gerbils, all whanging away for the snippiest one-line throwaway +1 crack possible.

But lines like this, from another thread, irk the unholy bejeezus out of me:
"Ursan is the only skill used in PvE now anyways..."

So, let's parse. Let's deconstruct. My first option in reading this is, "hey another sarcastic comment about the overuse of Ursan. But s/he can't REALLY believe that...right?"

My second possible reading: "S/He really believes this." (based on reading the ToA, DoA, Ring of Fire Spams, this might not be a bad assumption.

This kind of oversimplifying elitism (I.E. I'm better than you because I don't use Ursan (because I can't be bothered to max out my title, because I was leet without Ursan (because I'm expressing the gamer version of indie rock cred))) is poisoning forums, posts, and even in-game chats.

Please, please, please: at least pay lip service to the complexities of playstyles running around this game, not just the simple differences between PvP and PvE and Ursan and not. I (still) play every day, on rangers and rits, mesmers and monks, paragons and necros. I'm working to max Ursan. I use Ursan with friends in HM. I use a regular bar in HM (yes, on a non-monk toon). I Ursan in NM for grins. I sell, I buy. I feel guilty about playing Ursan. I feel guilty about not maxing my Ursan. I sneer at rank 2 Ursans trying to hop in my group for FoW--even at my own R2 Ursans. I have 35 skill bars for a ranger that don't involve the bear. I like to move quickly. I like to take my time and fight epic battles. I hate redoing zones. I love redoing zones. I hate being asked to be Ursan. I feel pleased when my R8 Ursan's invited to join groups. I get annoyed at guildmates who tell me to "hide your rank." I hide my rank. I get annoyed at being asked to do Ursan so another guildie can get a dungeon. I look for guildies to help do dungeons--using Ursan.

Do I get bored playing Ursan? Sometimes. So...easy solution: I don't play Ursan. But do I also admit that Ursan's made the game quicker, without costing fun? Damn straight. I was in a number of PuG and Guild Groups that failed various dungeons, wiped in FoW, couldn't Clear The Chamber...and then came Ursan. How many times does someone need to try before a shortcut looks damned appealing?

When we jumped into HM, the margins of error shrank a little: 60% DP sends you home. HM in UW or FoW, and you go home on the first wipe. There became less room for monks still learning their craft. Less room for a resto rit with fragile spirits. Less room for a mesmer running a bar that 60% of the gamers can't understand. Ursan expands that margin of error. Armor and health bonuses let you clip a couple of extra aatxes aggro bubbles by accident. Really, do we find extra "wiggle room" such a bad thing? As a monk, leet as you are, isn't it nice to heal a player who's got some higher armor? As a tank, leet as you are, isn't it nice to have the health?

I won't argue that Ursan's a great thing "for the game." On a deep, philosophical level--one concerned with the game, with developing a community, with developing skill, with problem-solving and build-developing--I can't argue that. Ursan made the game one where thinking and build synthesis has gone out the window.

But Ursan's a great thing "for the player." For the average player, for the hella-good player, for the noob and the newb and the newbie. I don't have to spend hours looking for a group that accepts an extra ranger, or rit, or mes. I don't have to convince people that paras are good, or rits can too heal. People who know tons about the game don't need to wait to find more people who know tons about the game--they can direct a group of compliant, clueless bears through a HM vanquish--and come out SUCCESSFUL--and OMG! Maybe even have a little fun. Maybe get a gold. Map an area. Work on a title (let's please not start that argument: some want a title, some don't, it's one of the many complexities of this huge game). Get an ecto, or shard, or gem drop.

Sorry, but I have kids, and a life, and a game to play. I don't want to spend hours forming a party--except for those days when I do. I don't love Ursan--except for when it helps me build my bank, my HoM, my small pile of ecto, my friendships with guildies. I get bored with it--except when I'm looking at the monsters and the art and the scenery, not my skill bar. This isn't hypocrisy, it's complexity. Get used to it.

So this is my request: at least pay lip service to the possibility that the skill(s) you bash, that the playstyle you disparage--whatever skills, whatever playstyle, ANY skills, ANY playstyle--is only ONE of many skills, many ways, we all play this game. Admit the complexities of using Ursan, the ambivalence you feel about the skill and how fast it's let you through things, the weird indie ethos of "I refuse to use something that commonplace," and the similarly weird ethos of "I refuse to learn a full 8-skill bar," and the similarly weird ethos of "you're just an elitist PvPer" and everything in between.

Respect the variety of things we all might do, any given day, in the game.

/complexity and ambiguity.

this is a great resolution about ursan, i think you got to the point here, i kinda agree with you about ursan, except that i actually think ursan a bad thing cuz of the point you expose here, the easyness and the lack of building and concentration, kinda make my though builds goes blank and null.

ursan is hollow.

I don't see why the self-identified "casual" gamers feel entitled to success in hard mode. You'd think it was supposed to be challenging or something, going by the name.

Just what this forum needs, it's one millionth and one Ursan thread. Why not just post the OP in any of the other million rather than making a new thread just for that post.

complexity? do you even know what that word means?

i will admit that Ursan is one way to play the game.
i will never admit that it is a complex way to play the game.

This is what ursan is:

Things that make the game preposterously easy are bad. Things that add challenge to the game are good. Ursan is the former, nerfing Ursan is the latter, there's no "complexity" involved.

Not to bash ursan, but what's complex about a skill that removes your whole bar, and gives you an overpowered attack, an AoE knockdown, AoE weakness and a speedboost?

You learn the skill by looking at them once, they never move.

There is almost no way to mess it up unless you press 5 or whatever, but then you lack the common sense to even play normally.

Oh crikes, read.

I don't argue that Ursan is complex. Far from it. But the motives for playing it ARE--in, I hope, more players than just myself.

Want the short form? Not into the whole long post thing? Sorry. Read the last multi-line paragraph.

There is NO complexity to ursan.

Using it, or the motivating factor to using it.

Its to make the game easier.

Period.

I dont care what your philosophy is. You can't inject bullshit into something as black and white as this.

Ursan makes it easier.

Some people find this fun. fine.
some, like me, think its the worst thing thats happened to the game.

An age old problem dating back to UO and Everquest. Eventually all games dumb content down so the casuals can catch up with the elite. The real problem is when no new content is provided for the elite to conquer that the casuals are unable to complete and can only drool over. When that happens, your elite hardcore players quit and find somewhere they can show off thier leet skills and massive playtime.

I have been both a hardcore gamer (1990-2005), but for the past 3 years I am more what I would call an hardcore/casual gaming adult. So I feel I have a sound understanding of both sides of the coin. That said, the whole idea of Ursan is absolutely terrible. Nothing that comes easy can ever be appreciated.

Here is what i gathered:

I and my buddies get ass kicked in HM because we cant handle it. Mostly because out monks have never heard of prot spirit, our ritualists are pure resto and you mesmer uses bar of which we have no clue what it does.

So we use ursan to do hard stuff.

And i dont want to feel bad about it because forum people seem to look down onto it so lets pretend that easy button is just another mode of gameplay that is just as cool, instricate and thought provoking as any other.

And lets say that people who have issues with ursan have them only because they think it is cool to hate commonplace stuff ala emo style. That should make them irrelevant enough so that we dont have to feel bad about ursaning stuff.

PS: i sometimes run normal bar too.

Did i get it right?

the reason ppl /rant bout ursan is because it has no complexity and no variety

so anything u said in this post contradicts wut ur tryin to achieve
u say complexity and variety....
but ursanway simplifies everything
and removes the need to have any variety

wut ur saying is that we're all different?
so the solution is make everyone exactly the same by runnin the exact same skill?
rather than try to work together and bring our differences together to compliment each other?

You want complexity on guru? Laddie, ya dinnae ken what yer up ag'nst!

ursan and complexity in the same sentence ?

yes, there are still people stupid enough to use roar on Mallyx, or people that can't follow called targets

ursan is the lifejacket for people who fail at pve, that's all

Evidently. I overreached.

Yes. File under first paragraph of OP. GG to ya.

I read this far, then I started to vomit uncontrollably. This post is the most wishy-washy, drivel-filled, my-Gawd-he-thinks-he's-Foucault wall of text I have ever seen. Let's not deconstruct.

If you like Ursan. Then like it.

But dont come in here telling me that "its just another way of playing" that's as complex as any other team build.

No.

Go play a mesmer in a GvG match.

Ursan doesnt add complexity to the game. Theres Hardmode, Normal mode, then Ursanmode.

Ursanmode removes the need for: Weapons, armor, professions, bodyblocking, tactics, aggrocontrol, position, etc.

So what complexity is it adding?

What nuances and subtleties of gameplay does it add when its essentially the same as taking a powerdrill to your temple and removing most of your brain?

Yeah, I think you got it exactly right.

I normally hate reading posts about Ursan, and refuse to post in most of them, but I do at least acknowledge what the OP says.

I feel the same way. I use Ursan when I am in a hurry to get something done, but the more I use Ursan, the more I get bored with the game. Button mashing 1, 2, 3 does get old fast, but, there are still fun times using it in some places. I used it while clearing Hard Mode Dungeons in EOTN, I used it in FoW a few times, till I decided to use my monk instead. I will use it again to clear DoA if I have too.

One thing I have never agreed with most people is that Ursan will make a bad player into a good player. I completely disagree with those statements. I've seen my fair share of horrible players monking FoW HM Ursan runs. These people typically are the ones who only care about finishing the run in under an hour because someone said it could be done. These are the people that have no idea what their aggro bubble is. Ever been in an Ursan group where one guy pulls every single mob around while doing the Army of Darkness quest in FoW? How hard is it to not aggro everything in site there. Hug the wall and the patrol going to the first Dragon Lich won't get close enough to aggro. Watch before you run to kill the priest to avoid aggroing a patrol coming in and killing the monks. Don't walk to the priest through the middle of the area he is standing at aggroing the other side of the hill.

Bad Ursans still don't know which targets to hit first. You see too many Ursans wailing on a Shadow Warrior in a group with 2-3 Shadow Monks. Too many Ursans keep spamming their skills and attacking while under Spiteful Spirit and Mark of Pain. Too many Ursans run through a mob of like 15-20 spiders at the end of the spider cave to pull the shard wolf (before the others clear everything) and scream at the monk because his heal party barely healed him on the edge of the compass.

Ursan does not equal the end all definite skill to use everywhere in PvE. There were many dungeons I found running a standard warrior build worked faster than Ursan did. I went with my guild to do FoW HM non-ursan. We cleared FoW so much better without the use of Ursan and a lot safer. Yea, we took about 2 hours to finish, but we did it. We still used some of the speed tactics that ursan groups do, but it worked as well without the one skill. We plan on tackling UW HM soon as well non-ursan.

My personal belief is that yes, Ursan has hurt the GW community, but, the hurt has also helped some. That person who could never get into a DoA group because he was an assassin/ritualist/mesmer, etc can now finish DoA. It's possible to take the easy way through an elite area to learn it better to form and go with a non-ursan group to do it. (Learning the patrols, pulls, etc.)

Do I want to see Ursan gone? No. Do I want to see it nerfed? No. Do I always have Ursan on my skillbar while playing? No.

It's an optional skill that is optional. Don't want to do FoW HM Ursanway? I've seen tons of groups forming lately in ToA that want to do the runs non-ursan. There are always other options. Forums can gather groups together. It's not hard, people are just lazy and will always be lazy. It goes both ways. People using Ursan are considered lazy for taking the easy way. People who complain that all they see is Ursan this, Ursan that are being lazy for not taking the initiative to try everything to find something else.

Now. Can this subject please die and all the QQ about Ursan be killed please?