A.net - are we playing the classes wrong AND any chance of some info?

Since vanquishing takes place on about 100% of the visible map in Cantha and Elona and huge parts of Tyria, this must be considered as the 'ultimate PvE experience' (tm).
Elite areas don't even show up on the map, so they are not really the 'ultimate PvE experience'.

There is one simple way to get the 'ulitmate PvE experience':

- Have a good tank.
- Let him gather all enemies in the area in a small ball around him/her
- Nuke the enemies to death
- Repeat above till you have cleared the area.

Required professions:
Ele (tank and nukers) and monk when Ele takes too much damage to survive (if you have a good tank, swap monk for ele for more damage).
You don't need Necro's, Warriors, Mesmers, Rangers, Assassins, Ritualists, Paragons and Dervishes at all.
If only BiP and EoE were Ele skills and not linked to Necro and Ranger, this would make life even easier.

In PvE, all professions are less efficient compared to the holy duality of Ele and Monk.

Oh, this reminds me:
A-net, could you please nerf those annoying non-spell enchantment removers, they are ruining my 'ultimate PvE experience', I cannot run my holy duality because of those in some areas.

Since all professions are underpowered compared to the holy duality in the 'ultimate PvE experience', it's safe to state that those are not better at anything.
Why put BHA on a monk when you can ball him in a group and nuke him to death?
Why use conditions besides fire, since you can ball enemies and nuke them to death?
.......

Mesmers being sucky because they don't have AoE damage is just as true as the things I wrote above.
Very true, except it's not how people want to play the game.
They want to play the game the way they want to (though I doubt that many people realise it's possible to vanquish a lot of the game with just eles helped by monks).

I think all professions can add value to a team, but you need skilled players working closely together to get full advantage.
And since most PvE is just a bunch of people that are not even used to play in an organised team, many professions seem to be underpowered.
That has more to do with the mindset and skills of those players than the profession.

One of the things I like a lot about Guild Wars is the mix 'n' matching of professions and the lack of instructions on how to use them. Nowhere does the development team communicate with us on what we must or must not do with what we're given and, as a result, we end up seeing combinations of skills that we would not normally forsee. For example, we had fast cast nukers (Me/E), we have rangers with hammers (R/W "Thumpers"), high-energy monks (E/Mo) and Necro spirit-spammers (N/Rt). Their effectiveness is in the eye of the beholder.

Although the manual gives a brief synopsis of each profession's purpose, it does not detail what they should do or dictate how we should use them. I was surprised to see:

Although we are keeping an eye on the powerful AoE damage of Searing Flames, we haven't done anything to it because we expect a lot of destruction from Fire Magic...

...because it was the first time I saw Anet express an opinion on professions.

When it comes down to the mesmer, they are considered a 'utility' by the majority of the player base whereas, traditionally, warriors, elementalists and monks were the forefront characters of prophecies. This is subjective, although somewhat justified. A mesmer has plenty of damage skills, defensive skills and shut down skills at his/her disposal but the AI in PvE is too dumb to have to be 'shut down' so you're as well nuking with an ele.

Mesmers have never been cosnidered undepowered or under privelaged in PvP but they've always been shunned in PvE. Mesmers don't need to be redesigned but the AI in PvE has to be smartened to the extent that a mesmer would become the first port-of-call for a PuG.

Also, Fast Casting could do with a slight buff.

It's been said before and I'll say it again. There's nothing wrong with mesmers, there is something wrong with PvE, specifically 'high end' PvE. Until A-net implements enemies that are smart, have good skill bars, and don't come in droves of 1 million, mesmers just won't fit in.

Just for the record:

Ultimate means a) last / final or b) most extreme of its kind

DoA comes under the catagory of "elite areas".

DoA is both a) the last PvE area in Nightfall - as it cannot be accessed until the previous areas of the game have been completed
and b) the most extreme PvE area in Nightfall, with its harsh environmental conditions, and bigger/higher level mobs.

So saying that "elite areas don't really count as ultimate PvE" is a false statement as it is self contradictory.

imo, a simple way to determine what a profession is/was designed for is to read the primary attribute of each profession (and to a lesser extent the armor level/bonuses for each profession) since everything else can be accessed secondarily. that is until you get into specific cross-profession combos. in that case there will be some combinations that will simply shine more than others at accomplishing a specific task. if you have a specific task in mind and find the skills that achieve it (e.g. knockdowns, conditions, snares, etc) then reverse engineer it back into the most appropriate profession, there will be a multitude of ways to accomplish just about everything across nearly every profession. but pinpointing who can use what skill most effectively will be determined almost entirely by the primary attribute (and to a lesser extent their armor). so yea, primary attribute, imo. that's anet's vision for each class.

Since hardly anyone is actually roleplaying it doesn't matter how we play.

In an effort to say something new (at least i haven't seen it yet), I offer this...

One of the biggest pains i've noticed in playing a mesmer is the long recharge for many of the skills. For example:

Skills that recharge in 10 seconds or less:

Monk: 92
Necro: 81
Eles: 61
Mes: 43


65 of the Mesmer's skills have a recharge of 20 seconds or more. Compare this with the 47 of the ele, and the 32 of the necro. Sure a mesmer has skills that can reduce recharge times, but one can only bring so many maintanance skills before they become generally inaffective.

Looking at the whole package, a profession is supposed to draw strength from its primary attribute. Fast casting allows mesmers to cast a large number of skills in a short amount of time. If a mesmer isn't bringing a recharge buff, they are just as likely to drop their load and spend the next 15 seconds wanding while waiting for a recharge. If they haven't taken an energy buff, the swift casting is likely to leave them depleted - thus waiting for energy to recharge. So to be effective, a mesmer needs to bring a recharge buff (there goes the elite slot), and an e-management skill. This leaves 6 slots. Don't forget to bring your res signet (everyone hates PvEers who forget ther res sig). And a self-heal just in case god forbid the monk falls down.

So now we have four skills for mainanance, and four skills for offense. Three of which are only going to recharge in 20 seconds (10 seconds with your recharge buff - which wont be in effect 20% of the battle). Compare this to the Ele who is spamming Fireball, SF, Glowing Gaze and maybe Immolate to fill in the gaps. Energy wont be a problem, because of attunement and GlowingGaze - does damage+returns energy with a PREDICTABLE/CONTROLABLE condition. Plenty of self heal via Aura of Restoration (works even better with spamming).

So if both bring a res sig, and a self heal (ether feast/aura of restoration) the ele will still have an advantage over the mesmer because:

a) their skills recharge quickly without modification (frees a skill slot for extra dmg or e management)
b) superior passive e-management via attunement (channeling requires that you be within a threatening range while attunement does not)
c) superior active e-management via Glowing Gaze (recharges faster than any mesmer e-theft skill, and burning is more controlable/predicatble than interuption/enchantment-hex removal... plus GG does damage while buffing energy)
d) The Ele's skills generally do high damage to many foes, while the Mes does high damage to individual foes. This is more advantagous than mere numbers.*

In a PvE environment, these are the reasons an Ele as caster will always be preferred above a Mesmer.


*AoE has benefits aside from causing damage to larger numbers. With the growing frequency of anti-spell skills (vow of silence/obsidian flesh/spell guardian/spell breaker) it is useful to be able to target something NEXT to your actual target, and still achieve the desired effect on your main target. For example, an ele can cast SF on the warrior next to the dervish, or the paragon next to the ObF Ele and still cause the target to burn, and later suffer spike damage. A necro can achieve similar goals by casting suffering or SS on an unprotected secondary target, and thusly attacking the main target. Mesmers have very few AoE skills, and so when they are to execute their job of shutting down the caster (monk/ele/whatever), they are stopped short, and rendered useless in their role. This particular example is especially noticable against Awakened in the desert. Both Vow of Silence and Obsidian Flesh are present in the mobs. Thank heavens the monks didn't have Spell breaker/guardian as well.

So bring skills that shut down casters AND melee... Well, as noted earlier, you only have four skill slots to work with. You either do one job well, or both jobs mediocre. Which bring us to the other problem of Mesmers not having as much versatility/utility in a single build as the other professions. A mesmer will go in and be really good at one thing, and suck at everything else. And if the one thing is absent, or blocked (via VoS/OB/SB), then you are SoL.

Well, that's my view on mesmers today. Summed up, slow recharges and lack of versatility/unversality make them somewhat impotent.

One step towards a fix:

Have Fast Casting also affect Spell Recharge times. Just throwing it out there. What do you think of that? Maybe i'll post someting on it in sardelac...

They way Anet had designed PvE, all that matters is raw damage, and some form of healing/defence. Mesmers are a tactical class, but in PvE, there is one tactic: Pump out lots of damage and kill monk first. That's it. Classes that don't augment that tactic, and unwanted.

Personally i see Cry of Pain as basically converting the Mesmer into an Elementalist. The posiblity of maybe putting some effort into the PvE enemies of GWEN is just a little too much to ask. Instead we'll be ending up with the usual wave upon wave of enemies that will succumb easily to Searing Flames spam w/ optional Winter. So instead they just gave the Mesmer an even more overpowered version of Spiritual Pain. How exactly does Cry of Pain fit into the 'counter' aspect of the Mesmer? Stick some random hex on the target, echo/MoR Cry of Pain until death, rinse and repeat.

[card]Mantra of Recovery[/card] says hello.

Once you figure in the .75 after-cast, fast-casting only gives a marginal advantage to "skill spamming". I'd couple this with noting that many of the mesmers best skills are interrupts, which are already at .25s cast. So, for a huge section of the skill line, there isn't much you can do.

Further, even if you were a skill spammer, you're going to run of of energy. The best built-in energy management is ranger/necros. The Elementalist has it easy with the uber-efficient Glyph of Lesser Energy. If you were going to do some sort of "buff" for mesmers, it'd be to have lots of the energy management options that Elementalists have. Why do elementalists have all those energy options? Since they have a big energy pool, of course. Is it fair? No.

In particular, energy management department (after the stuff in inspiration line took nerf after nerf 2 years ago, or was trash to start with).

Ether Energy
For 1...12 seconds, you get 1..4 energy back for each spell cast

Most domination skills are extremely powerful and balanced by a high cost/cast/recharge. The mesmer abilities are meant to offset this and make the skills more feasible (fc/mor or mods/mesmer energy skills). They're not meant to be spammed for the most part as much as used as precision tools.

......The whole point was that with energy management, self-heal, etc., there are only four skill slots open max for damage dealing or interrupting. Mantra of Recovery would qualify as the "recharge rebuff" mentioned - but it eliminates a damage dealing or interrupting elite slot. Hmmmm.

My mesmer doesn't carry any energy management. She does carry a self-heal of sorts (a necro skill) and a resurrection signet. Everything else is dedicated to damage dealing. Cry of Pain is actually not too bad if used judiciously, but as the only one-shot "AoE" for a mesmer, it's a little sad. Yes, she spends some time wanding, but not too bad, usually. If she were to use some of the (enticing) higher energy req skills, forget it! I mean, whoever thought of having a mesmer skill take 25 energy to activate?!?!? (Conjure Nightmare, anyone?)

Interrupting (with mesmer skills) in PvE has become so imprecise that most of the time, I don't even bother trying to set a build. I'm tired of activating an interrupt at the very outset of a foe's casting - clearly in ample time to interrupt that skill/spell - and the interrupt fail. NO apparent reason (i.e. no Spellbreaker, etc.)

At any rate, to bring us back to the original idea and get the spotlight away from the mesmer, I still think it would be interesting to hear how the developers envisioned the professions' 'roles' in PvE.

~Falcon

I used to love my PvE mesmer, and he used to love [skill]Spiritual Pain[/skill]
now he just makes an apearance as a event host for the guild, at mesmer can look the part ^^

Despite all the mesmer talk, id liek to talk about another class that anet have decided should play a strict role - Ritualists

Now i love my rit, he has easily become my main and my 1st char to complete every campaign. And he did all this without touching a spirit, never not once - when i first got dragged into urgoz with my guild it cost me a good 6k just for the skills

So why, if ritualists are given resoration magic, weapon spells, item spells and channeling magic - Do BOTH the PvE skills focus on spirits, Despite the problem of Rit in PvP anet still seems to be push for spirit rits!

The whole 2% on weapons was a nice buff, but its still nothing compared to the why the rit is going - im sorry to say a single rit PvE skill has yet to touch my bar

Just because of all of the comments my friends gave me of how 'weak' a mesmer is in PvE, i tried it. And i must admit it was even more fun than i imagined. Im not a very experienced player yet, and i dont survive as easily as a ranger, which i started out with. But just the thrill of quickly locking down key targets in a mission does it all for me. It feels kind of like though you dont have an easily defined role in your party, you can be a really good help in giving the final blow on a hard to beat enemy.

I felt good when I timed my interrupts perfectly to shut down particularly nasty bosses too. Then playing my ranger I just shot a Broadhead Arrow... and did the job much better. Playing a Mesmer is fun because you actually have to do stuff other than spam one spell. You have to look for spells to interrupt, etc. But in terms of the Mesmer's actual contribution to the mission, it is minimal and some other class could have done much more.

Cry of Pain is nice, it lets the Mesmer get a real kick in (against end game monsters, it's particularly strong with LB title stacking in and its armor ignoring effect). Although nuking just doesn't seem like the Mesmer style.

Hello.
I have hated ritualist for that reason , i do not wish to spam a million spirits and then have the enemy explode.Its the same reason i like air magic more then fire magic, fire magic/spirit spamming , press 1,2,3,4,5 watch the enemies explode.

I came up with a build for ritualist a few weeks ago that i simply loved it used 1 single spirit and that was it,i could even drop that spirit if i wanted , i only needed that spirit for the reason you said, that the skill required one to be effective.

Build consisted of 2 weapon spells and 1 spirit and the rest just spells, it was some kind of healing Rt did in my words did very nice

Now my feelings toward rits are I HATE the spiritspamming style , i simply LOVE the weapon spells and the rest of the skills they have.

@paragons : they are a very well thought idea , that simply and sadly went wrong.
@mesmers : as have been said a few times, pve = aggro, tank it ,nuke it and heal.

Yes... playing a mesmer is fun when you shut things down. But Anet have turned it into an Armour ignoring nuker because they can't be bothered to make there counter aspect acutally required. Why not just play an SF Ele... you can't claim that the Mesmer is more fun, both professions are doing the same damn thing now.

My mesmer has vanquished Elona and is well on his way to finishing Cantha. He read this thread and called everyone a bunch of ignorant noobs. I was about to tell him how rude that was but then I saw these pretty lights oh look a bunny!..........

If you are going to quote something, maybe you should read it first.

"So to be effective, a mesmer needs to bring a recharge buff (there goes the elite slot), and an e-management skill. This leaves 6 slots. Don't forget to bring your res signet (everyone hates PvEers who forget ther res sig). And a self-heal just in case god forbid the monk falls down." - From my original post