Some Info about Community Relations

@ Gaile, Thank you for that as it was one of the first honest straight forward answers given in a long time. I can understand where your job can be very stressful and limited by the information that you are given and I dont fault you for doing the best that you can with the information given to you. I just tried to put into perspective the best way I could from the information i had from the community

I think that we can both agree that communication is key among the community and the developers and hopefully this thread will help to better serve both sides.

Have different skill rules for PVP and PVE that will solve all the skill imbalances

I cant help but feel somewhat disturbed by this statement. Surely then you would have realised that the removal of 6v6 and re establishment of 8v8 should have been made straight after you saw the slumping number of players in HA. Why is it then you then went on to make kill count. I simply dont get it especialy when all people asked for was 8v8. How does that improve the game may i ask.

Yes things are not as simple as they are on paper. But i dont understand how reverting HA back to its former state cannont be simple especially when people liked it and it was popular. Also it seems like the logical alternative if look at all angles of it. It would do more good than harm. Even then why not do a week event of HA with alter capping. That would give you a rough indication on how it will fair out. Can someone please tell me what is so hard about this.

I just want to point something out here. I wasnt aware of a vote on 6v6, my friends where not aware on a vote for 6v6. I asked loads of hard core HAers and non of them where aware there was a vote for 6v6. So who in the world actually took place in this vote. If your going to make such a big descion i simply dont understand why it wouldnt say be posted on the main website or log on screen, oh there is a vote for pvpers so make sure you vote and so on. To be honest it doesnt seem so difficult and this is where you start the problem for yourself.

The majority of Hardcore HAers enjoyed the 6v6 weekend but by the end of it they were board. It was nice for a tempory change just a bit of fun. Now the pvers how (the casual players in most circumstances). Say ohhhh its much easyer to get into a group and so on, *when your forgetting it was double fame weekend also, and as they rarely play HA they vote based on that (it wont really effect them much).* Therefore this means HA shouldnt have been changed in the first place so realising your mistake why wasnt it changed back pronto if you say it was made at the request of the loudest members of the comunity. Obviously this says somethings wrong.

So whos fault is it then that we got this fiasco with tombs now? Certainly wasnt the majority of the pvp communitys fault. The people who asked for 6v6 where the casual players and i believe some pvers being from observation alot of the HA community didnt use the forums at the time. Like me they just enjoyed playing (also to the pvers, HA just becomes another random arenas to them. Somewhere to relax for a bit sometimes). The majority of hard core players prefered 8v8. Thats why HA slumped so much, because thats what these people who wanted it were. Casual. This is why the amount of HA guilds has dwindled embarassingly. Many top HA guilds even went to gvg, this clearly says these changes are wrong, also with the fact it just doesnt work. I also want to point something out, you saw HA was suffering under 6v6. So what happened to pleasing the majority? If the minority who liked 6v6 where complaining but it could be seen the majority prefered 8v8 as more where playing. Why did it take 9 months to come to the conclusion HA should be taken back to its original state which everyone was fine with as thats the way its always been.

Yes of course people will always have conflicting ideas. But when the majority, by far the majority want something shouldnt they then get it (this is in terms of HA). Kill count is a prime example, that statement of yours will probly explain why its still there. Go into HA and ask around, what do you think of kill count. Everyone agrees its no good. Check a poll done on the HA section of the forums. 75 percent almost want Kill count compleatly removed and remember theres 4 options. Remember sample, now clearly i would look at this and say. One common denominator is comming up when asking people why they dont like HA. And that is because of kill count, if you dont believe the proof given to you on GWguru then ask around in HA. Do a poll on your website or something.

But the 75 percent clearly shows this can be a potential problem. Therefore it clearly is an easy answer if you were to just take HA back to the original state of Alter holding being you knew this system worked. Its not like your testing it am i wrong? If you even clearly look at the arguments concerning kill count you would see there all logical, go have a look for your self and you will find there true such as it eliminating the chance of heavy hex builds for going far hence why no one runs it. How it promotes spike ect.

Well i can probly give some insight as to why people have behaving as they are from the HA perspective. Ok anet make a change, thats HA to 6v6. Loads of people are like bah whats this. They hear anet say if you have comments put them on the forums. They come on the forums initialy and write long long long pieces of information to help anet understand what the problem is. If you look at the posts you find although they may be on say different threads they all come up with the same problems. Now people realise this isnt a personal oppinion but basically universal and represents the views of many of the HA community (the majority). So they expect anet to take some action on this. 9 months later anet answer there request. So yes people have to wait for 9 months before Anet do a simple change which the whole community wanted.

Ok, now we find however anet have kept kill count which is a 6v6 mechanic and obviously does not work with 8v8. This therefore leaves the waiting time for the majority of the HA community almost over a year now. People lose pacitents. People get angry, people feel like they have been mistreated. Its like when trade unions ask for increased pay, the company refuses so they strike. With this people lose faith and trust in anet espeicaly when you got Galie who claims she reads the forums saying *i think kill count is succesful* and then saying HAs now further down our list because we have done lots of work on it.

Now this is what drives players over the edge, there seems to be a conception it wouldnt take you very long to reverse the changes and you basically walked along the footpath to get to your destination rather than using it. People get wound up, lose pacitents, start hating anet and wam, thats where the disrespect comes in. Its because people have lost respect for anet. If you want the majority of players can just do what many have done. Bottle there anger and quit.

But how long would it take to get rid of kill count and say reverse halls back to a state which has been tested and works *aka alter capping*.

So what do you think of a waiting almost a year? Is that impatienct, exactly when are we meant to start losing patience then. 2 years, 3, 4 or maybe 70?

You say less than 1/4 of the players post online for games gernerally. This seems like a contradiction to what you did regarding changing HA to 6v6. If this statement is true, why was HA delt with via 100 percent influence from the forums. Before me and other HAers started to voice our concerns *which might i add only the change to 8v8 has been done over a 12 month period.* We considered the possibility it was only us feeling this way.

However when talking to friends and people in teams we joined and other HAers on the forums we found it was a widespread belief hence why we posted them in the first place. Its not because its an indiviual belief but a universal one.

Stated this above

Its almost hilarious how "statistics" is being employed in this OP's address to the community.

Simple math for you guys to figure out. If only 1/4 of the players post of which were discontent w/ the over-inflation in the economy why did you decide to lootscale without even consulting us? Then w/ the HUGE uproar in the community that were "happy" w/ the original scaling which was wait....3/4 posting back on the forums asking, demanding, and even begging you guys to reconsider, you completely ignored us and drove more bullshit statistics down our throats. So how does 1/4 of a community decide whats "best" for the 3/4 then? The logic seems flawed, and even if you were to employ 1/4 statistics of posters that were angry at the update, then whats 1/4 of 3/4 of upset players? 3/16. So only 3/16 discontented players complained, but you still allowed the 1/4 of "statistically speaking" deciding "majority" to make the rules for the rest? Thats a pretty slim margin to just TURN the INSIDE-OUT for. Good numbers you used there buddy. Next time why not use statistics to prove why statistics is Bullshit.

I enjoyed playing prior to and during 6v6 HA, and many players who weren't comfortable with the set in it's ways rhip (that's Rank Hath It's Priveledges) existence were glad for the shakeup if only to get a few good plays in. New players were are and always will be good for everyone in HA, and 6v6 was the Dev teams honest attempt to bring in new blood. Yeah the old guard didn't like it because they had to actually try to win. Think about builds...
Change is good, because it brings in fresh ideas and new ways of looking at things. While I hardly ever even go to HA anymore I still enjoy me some occaisional fond memories of the chaos that whole thing was
I didn't stop playing Ha over kill counts, just moved on to other things, perhaps if you all just found something you enjoyed doing instead of being angry

There'll always be malcontents, my message to the Dev Team, and you guys in CR, keep up doing what you're doing. They wouldn't be so angry if they didn't love the game at some point.

personally i opt for an in-game poll system or dev team kinda update shpeel in the log in screen or in the new help menu. no more of this...only a fraction of players post on the forums (which is true) and this and that. let everyone have their own opinion in certain updates and future ideas and whatnot. thats just me though.

all in all i can feel for a-net, the dev team, and the messengers as gaile so eliquently put it. i work at las vegas motor speedway and receive numorous calls daily about how our company sucks and what we're doing wrong.....when all i do is ticket sales and representation. its not up to me to change the way we do our buisness...in fact its not my direct supervisors or their supervisors responsibility either. attacking gaile or anyone else for that matter who really is the ones on the front line between the community and the dev teams is rather un-called for and just flat out rediculous. but i digress. it is true that.....making an update can make one side of GW absolutely giddy and piss the others off to no end. you cant always make 100% of a game of this magnitude happy it just doesnt happen that way. it must be kept in mind that updates and skill balances and new content is all done with the best intentions and with the players in mind whether it seems that way or not.....GW is a-nets child in a market which itself is in its infancy. every update and change they make is basically setting the curve in the MMO market, with which the forums and community feedback tells them what works and what doesnt....and i dont mean in specifics like nerfing such and such blah blah, just in general. i dont have any experience in coding or game design or anything of that sort (as if its not obvious enough already) so feel free to flame away about my ideas im used to it anyways. anyrate patience must be considered before utterly bashing people who really have no control over what gets implemented and when.

as for constructive ideas i still stick with my original idea of an in game poll. also a cross campaign outpost like the battle isles for trade instead of an AH or anything of that nature. and (something that may even be fun for dev team) weekends of going to bot hot spots (ha that rhymed) and doing hands on bot bans. i had a few more ideas but i forgot them halfway through typing this. =D overall i think yall are doing a great job for maintaining a game with free gameplay (sans the initial free to actually buy the game) and ive already got GW:EN pre-ordered.

I think a good majority of these posts are only proving Andrew's points

Personally I don't always like the changes, in fact I hate quite a few of the more recent ones. But the game is still playable, and I understand that there is often a bigger picture that I might not see.

The thing I really don't get, is if people really hate it so much why do they continue to play it? I'm not saying anyone should leave, I just don't get it. I get bored with GW sometimes and take a month or two off from playing it, not come on the forums and ream the CR team for not making my ideas come to life.

With that said though it does seem that communication is bad. It even seems to be one way communication at times (us to you). You say you send the devs a 4-8 page report weekly. So why not post a copy of that report somewhere? Or at least parts of it so we can see that our suggestions and complaints, and whatever other merda we manage to pull is actually being listened to.

I don't think anyone expects all of our suggests to be made real, they just expect to be listened to and considered. The real issue seems to be they don't feel like they are receiving that from you. Thats not to say you aren't listening, its that you aren't always listening visibly. There is no reason for you to do more work, just a simple summary (probably easily copy and pasted right out of your weekly report) of which suggestions/complaints they received.

Quite honestly I don't care either way, maybe I see things the way they are or maybe I'm way off. I've never been one to complain about the state of the game on these forums (at least not much and usually having to do with artwork changes i.e. attribute panel) and when things get to the point I think the game is "ruined" or "broke" I just won't play anymore simple as that.

There is no stronger message that we can send to the devs than simply not playing. Sure they may not miss me, but if they make enough people quit they might re-look at the state of the game. But for me the game is still fine and I'll continue to play nerf or no nerf

Anything I say can and will be used against me in a forum thread such as this one So I won't say anything bad



I think the team is busy. Leave them be for a month please. Before they snap and ruin the good times.

No Wait... scratch all that.....

I love GW. I love Andrew and Gaile for even being here. I hate posters who talk shit to them.

I never take the opportunity to say nice things to them. So now I am.

Thank you.

Actually, let me address some of the positive things I've seen them do for us all in past 14 months I've been playing.

When I first started playing GW, there was this community feel to it, something that I really longed for in games before. Everyone was nice, people went out and did quests, missions and it was easy to make friends. The first time I saw an update on the website, I was floored by the amount of things that actually made sense in a update in the first place. It was like Anet strived to keep the game fair and fun for everyone, no matter what time of year. Wether it be events or any game improvements, fixes that were related to making sure everyone that plays had an enjoyable experience.

As time went on, the release of Nightfall was just amazing addition for my style of play. I was like WOW.. this is amazing that they would allow me to play by myself and not have to group up with any one of "THE REST OF YOU" for anything other than a few missions or Elite Areas. So I avoided all those things and I got very far into the game on my own. Having the most fun I've ever had in a game before. And thanks to all the nice Updates that ensued.

But lately, it's become clear that most of that fun was exploitable by greedy cheaters. And now Anet has decided that if they want the rest of the player base to stay, they need to do something about that. So this year their focus is on making sure that everyone is happy, NOT including the greedy exploiters and other cheaters out there.

I am 100% sure that at LEAST 20% of people posting lately are the ones I would dare not associate with in game, EVER. Because they lost the ability to exploit minor oversights. Now Anet is stuck in the middle of this, and they are starting to lose their cool because it's hard to determine who to listen to anymore.

They made everyone happy once I'm sure they can do it again. So please do continue on with your fine work, Andrew and Gaile, because without you, there would be no community. I am still buying GW:EN and GW2 no matter what. And multiple copies at that. Because I believe in Anet.

Well, time is money and I got some GW to play. Take care guys

Yeah, next minute someone on the dev team explodes at the negativity this forum produces and deletes the entire database. You think that Anet ignore you guys? They ought to... but that's just not how they operate, not at all.

I'm just going to say in finality, that I like the recent changes that Anet have done, and I greatly respect them and their efforts in their superior relations to the fans who have continued to play and enjoy this game for so long, kudos!

As for the rest of the community... disappointed.

I've spent more time in this game that I really should have. With every change, we adapted. People left, people started playing, and the band played on. I wish some things would happen with the game and I wish some things that have happened wouldn't have, but so long as I am able to log in, I think I'll be content. Gaile, Andrew, anybody that has anything to do with delivering such a great game (most of the time), thanks. That is all.

Terra, that quote was meant to be things that other people say.. not what I say.

But I noted that you, along with many others would right away be the first to point out that i was being serious and that i meant that to be detrimental toward the devs.

I hope you get to read that I fixed it and what I added came from my heart. I'm sorry if the examples I gave were not specified as "examples" of general poster morale.

I tried to fix it by deleting that part, but when I finally posted my message, it was too late.

Unfortunatlely I think you're preaching to the choir on this one.

It's a customer service and community issue. If there isn't a problem then no one's going to complain about it, so naturally you're going to get unhappy people whining to you. Most of the immature/agressive posts seem to come from younger players and since a good number of players *are* younger, I'd think this would have been expected.

Nice write up, hope it helps with your efforts, but I wonder if you're taking some of the complaints too personally (yeah, I know its your game and company but you know what I mean) and not filtering out the feedback that's just there because someone had a bad day and wanted to take it out on someone else.

You have to remember that all these updates and new feature is FREE because we don't pay a monthy fee.

You have to remember that anything that do for FREE is considered "charitable giving" from a business prespective. However it's "used" to make your company look good (usually after a big screw-up against the enviroment). However Anet's features only reach people that have paided ALREADY. Which doesn't make sense business-wise.

So really Anet is the only company where I can safely say that they do all these things for FREE because they care about us. Anyone who accuses Anet of being greedy probably doesn't relieze what Anet does.

Anet may you know that the community appreciates what you do even in this Sea of Complaits!

*salute*

Skip the middle-man then?
If
shouldn't they - the one's that really know what is best for the game - be looking at the data instead of looking at the selection that was made - by your definition - by somebody that DOESN'T know what is best for the game?

The biggest problem here is quite simple - at least for me.
You are slacking off. Not compared to other companies - BUT compared to the high standard you guys set yourself. Seriously - Guild Wars IS one of the most godly games i have ever player - it really is up there with stuff like Mario and Tetris for me. But it seems to me that lately you are in it over your head and some changes MUST happen.
BUT then again - it IS your game and you had to make calculation on how many users you can piss off for the game to still stay successful!


The only question that arises from your post - is posting an "we deserve a little respect so you should just shut up"-themed post in THESE TIMES good PR?

Andrew, quite frankly, your post is meaningless. It may be what you perceive, but the realities of the situation are significantly different. There has been a significant failure of community relations and while it is an internal issue to deal with, I would be amazed if someone is not held accountable.

Your PVP community has fallen apart. I have no hard numbers, but all anecdotal evidence indicates that the PVP community has significantly declined in numbers over the last year, due to a clear misunderstanding on ANets part of needs and priorities of that community. Your little monologue about HA is pathetic and demonstrates further these misunderstandings. It is particularly telling, that every PVP player that I know chooses, instead of working through community relations to completely bypass them and go straight to the devs. You are irrelevant to the PVP community and until someone is brought into community rleations who understands and who has a clear job description of dealing with the PVP community, this will continue.

However, I understand this is something you cant admit. You can't go to your management and say we don't understand PVP, we haven't understood if for two years while all the time saying that we did. That would get you, get Gaile fired. So you're in a bind. You can't fix the problem with the PVP community without an adverse impact for you and you can't understand it.

It doesn't matter though. The PVP community is effectively dead - I don't know why you'd bother anymore. Other games are actively (and successfully) stealing your market. They're offering easy entries for your PVP community and we're lapping it up. They're offering jobs for your PVP community and we're lapping it up. That's because, the relationship between the PVP community and ANet is effectively dead. That to me, is an epic failure of community relations.

The day people stop crying, they haven given up GW at all.

Then it is all fine and dandy, pure harmony for those who did not get scared away.


Neither PvP people nor PvE people feel things are going the right way! Because they just want to bitch and cry? No, because they are desperate.

The design team can do whatever it wants, it does not even have to listen to the community. It has to make them happy with the game.

Some more updates with major extremely unpopular changes and unadressed issues and GW is going SWG. Maybe the whining will then stop, when people are simply gone. Bad rationale.

Nice post, though isn't SWG the one that pretty much died because they went with the motto of:

As for the rest of OP, I'll have to wait to respond directly when time permits. Should be fun.

It is lamentable the way we treat A-Net's Community Relations staff. I admit I have been rude my share of times, I admit I have only considered my side of the "game" while discussing some issues. Just like everyone does every now and then. I recognize it, but I also know that it is nothing personal. Andrew, you are right. Your job is a thankless job. You should have known that from the moment you were assigned to it.

It is like every customer support in every service. The poor guys who get assigned to the job are the ones who get the rants that those "high up there" should be getting. It has been done for ages, that's why it shouldn't be different here. It's common logic. If a customer is upset about something he spent money on, he automatically feels he has the right to complain to the one closest to the company he's paying too, although, if confronted personally, he would maybe realize he's complaining to the wrong person, even if it's the one he should be saying what is wrong with his purchase/service/whatever.


But what is even more lamentable, and what almost EVERY TIME sparks the rants, tension and irritation, is the way some players treat others, when they have different opinions.
EVERY SINGLE TIME someone is criticizing some aspect of the game, even if he's trying to be polite, not demanding, or just reporting something that should be looked at, there's always that 'player' who assumes he knows more of the game than him and starts the 'flames', just because he felt so.

Believe me, we have MANY of these in this forum.
Speaking for myself, if someone counters my views in that way, I simply can't ignore it.

And then, it all begins: everyone shooting from their side, everyone being hit, including Anet.


If everyone stopped being so smug about themselves, this problem was cut by half at least. It's that annoying kind of people that should be playing single player games. A good example of this was the discussion about 'spammers' .

Oh ban him!!!! BAN HIM TO DEATH!!!! AAARGH!! KILL HIM!!! SPAMMER!!

Please... if you live in a community, you have to expect these annoyances, so deal with it rationally.


(and now they all say)

U JUST SAYING THAT CAUSE U A SPAMMER!!!11ONEONE


¬_¬

If you give something and than take it away, people get angry and upset. No matter if its right or wrong, for free or not, once you give something and than take it away it will cause frustration. Always! Players don't get angry because they hate the game. They had something they liked and it was taken away. Thats it.

Along with the obvious communication problems mentioned by Andrew, where players get the impression that by discussing the issues they can get back what was taken away, while the Dev team only picks up some details, following their own plan, it is clear that a solution cannot be expected by asking the playerbase to show more respect and to have confidence.

I would suggest:
Andrew and Gaile, make clear to the dev-team what impact game changes have on the community! Make clear to them what your own postion is in communicating between community suggestions and dev solutions. Make clear what your own feelings are and try to get them out of that ivory tower! Communicate with them just like you did with us in this thread.

I completely agree, that no one should be insulting you, Gaile or anyone else of Arenanet.
However, my biggest frustration with this game is that updates take so long and often seem to come out of nowhere, or not at all .

Lets have a look at anti-warrior hexes, I quote from the official wiki:
Why exactly are you leaving those alone, if you can clearly see with one look at the Gladiator's forums, that no one really seems to enjoy them, since they are so easy to apply and so difficult to remove when there are so many other hexes as well. Monitoring anti-warrior hexes isn't enough for me, I want to know why they aren't changed after such a long time of complaining, of a majority of the PvP-crowd on these forums.
Do you think they make games more exciting to play? Can't you think of a solution to them? You think they are very well balanced, and this is not going to change? Are there actually other places where people support hexes (for example on forums which use a different language), and you don't want to upset those people?

The last balance update we have seen was on the 13th of April to balance the conjure spells (water, lightning and earth). Why wasn't there a balance in between that gave defensive anthem a two second cast and blurred vision a two second cast? I don't really care about the buffs, I actually think you should consider them carefully, like you do now, just as you should consider nerfs carefully. But why is it that we need to wait untill you have changed 10 skills and done some other changes that we get the update? Why couldn't X-skill get a seperate update in the beginning of May for example? I have heard (I think on the QQ-forums) that Izzy had the soul reaping update ready for a few weeks already, but wasn't allowed to implement it yet (this wasn't told by an official Anet employee, so I could be wrong of course). Why, if he had it ready, wasn't he allowed to implement it? I also heard Jade Isle had been adjusted a long time ago (not sure if it has changed in the meanwhile), same question; why not implement it?

Then there are updates that seem to come out of nowhere. Why exactly was the ability added to clear a target? Why is it that we need to talk to the storage box now instead of talking to the Xunlai Agent? (I can't be bothered about who/what I need to talk to, but it just seems a waste of development time).

I understand the fact that not everything I ask for can be implemented. But is it so hard to give an explanation (if a large part of the forum-community requests it). Can't you simply tell us why you won't allow more letters in the party-search panel?
I love this game. I have played it for over 3000 hours. I don't complain just to complain, I complain because I actually care, because I think Arenanet can do things differently, in a better way.