"Emergent Complexity" skill system..how will this change the gameplay

this phrase is refering to the article on Wired:

"""Speaking of running around the world, that's something you'll actually be able to do; run, jump, basically just dork around however you like. When you land in a new world, O'Brien explained, you don't want to have to read a bunch of skill descriptions, you want to run around and jump and swing, so that's what you'll be able to do in Guild Wars 2. It's meant to be a learn-by-doing sort of situation--rather than have overly complex skills that take an excessive amount of brain matter to understand, players will learn less complicated skills that they will be encouraged to test out in any situation they can think of. What happens if you use this skill while jumping, or that one while surrounded by monsters? Who knows? Give it a whirl and find out! Strain referred to it as "emergent complexity," and if it works the way they say it will, I shall personally send them each a fruit basket. Having a wide variety of skills in a game is great, but the amount of reading and memorizing you usually have to do to have even the most functional ability in an MMO is enough to drop me into a deep state of catatonia."""

so far everything about GW2 I approve of...but when I saw this... I shuddered at the thought of a "city of heroes type" skill system where damage is not definite and effects are unclear...

I'm not sure about anyone else.. but I like to have the complex skill descriptions... It makes the time away from the game fun..thinking up builds and how they synergise with eachother

I can see the problems however with overcomplexity... I look at some MMOs and just blow them off because they look like you need a college degree in "how this game works"... and even my friends/family who are just starting GW seem to have the same feelings of this game

However...I for one do not want to just run around and hit things without a definite system of skills in place. I love the 8 skill system we currently use and will be sad to see this dissapear...if it does...


edit: the 8 skill system is apparently staying...whew ....here is the link with the news
http://www.gamona.de/pc/article/deta...08/start-2.htm

The more I hear about GW2, the more I try to like it but find it harder and harder to.

/agree

The 8-skill bar, the amount of synergy and thought that goes into making a workable build...
The overall breadth of skills and their effects, well, the skill system in general, is the best thing about GW.

I would like A.Net to finaly release all of their damage formulas etc.

I am not passing judgement quite yet... what they release may be better than anything we have seen as of yet...


they ARE the ones that brought to use the first GW so... we shall see. I just hope it's not a dumbing down like we have seen/heard on other games...

caugh{ SW GALAXIES }caugh

Hi,

I'm not sure if I understood exactly what Anet meant there, but this could definitely be a HUGE improvement on MMOS, and possibly videogames. My guess is that the skill system is not changed in the game engine, only the interface between the skills and the player changes: you no longer get a skill as an "object" (buy it, get it from a quest) but as an "action" (do this and that).

Depending on how usable this system of getting skill is, it could be a lot of fun. It is a bit like in real-life: to become good a playing GW, you have to play it, try and fail, then improve by groping around. Basically I guess it's all about typing the right sequence of keys (I hope it won't become a street-fighter like process, e.g. hit F1, then X, then Ctrl+0, then A and P at the same time ...) but what I find interesting is that the process could be attached to the visual actions, e.g. to get Penetrating Blow you'd have to be good at aiming at parts of the ennemy body that does not have armors, or to get a Fireball you'd have to use Fire a lot and make some kind of movement to evocate the light of fire soon-to-be (see GW cinematic). In other words try to attach a visual meaning to skills, so instead of simply typing the 1 key to activate these beautiful movements for your skills we would do the reverse and do the movements to get the skills.

It's a bit like any sport, you have to try the moves to get the special attacks

See, they didn't actually state that GW2 would eliminate the skill system. They're just adding what I see as a very very cool system of skill effects.

actually thats a bit like console games...(not that a controller would be a bad thing...love my xbox)

but on a keyboard?? I kinda liked the click to move action... I can play while rocking my newborn to sleep.

Who knows, may be you'll get exclusive skills by only using your mouse?

(doubt that they'll give you extra-rare skills if it's your newborn typing randomly on the keyboard...but who knows? )

The more I hear about GW2, the more I like it. The whole idea of "emergent complexity" makes me excited.

To each their own.

AS much as I hate to say it, if using skils in the game comes down to button mashing, a la Street Fighter, I won't be playing it.

Hopefully it won't be like that, cuz I am really looking forward to GW2.

Hes talking about a new learning system for skills.

Reminds me a bit of Saga Frontier 2.

You have basic fighting skills (Swing, Feint, Block, Ready, Focus, Beat, Charge). Certain combos create new skills. like.....Swing two times, and it gives you access to the skill Roll Beat (unblockable), that sort of thing.

It lets you learn new skills to the technique you like to play (if you use swing and beat a lot, you learn more powerful multiple blows, if you use focus and charge before you attack, you get stronger single blows).

I will be kkeping an eye on this as well.

I like the GW skill system. Much like the movement system mentioned above; I like GW's movement system. If they make this like WoW where a melee character has to manually control being close enough to a target, and facing a target, they can count me out. Oftentimes I have to play with a baby in one arem, and while difficult, it's possible in GW1. It would be impossible in a system like WoW's

In any event, I will get in on the beta as much as possible, and see whether I like it. Hopefully the community will steer them in the right direction if they get a taste of the beta, and they don't like it.

He is refering to not having to read skill descriptions....not just learning of skills...

button mashing..... exactly what I dont want to see...

what will happen to skills? if they are less complex.... if you dont have to read the descriptions... if you learn them by using them in different situations first??


say good bye to
[card]sever artery[/card] [card]gash[/card] for instance...

now you just have to push a combination of buttons???

What would be amazing would be spellcasting via mouse gestures. I think Black and White did that, where you press control, for instance, swirl the mouse around, and you cast a spell. Spells with longer cast times could have more complicated gestures. Of course, that seems to fly in the face of them wanting to simplify skill descriptions.

I think people are over reading this statement. I think he means should be able to figure out the basics of play the game w/o reading a manual.

Those games - easy to learn hard to master, like checkers

I'll give you an example. FFXI has some many things in the game / changes (new stuff to the game) - there is so much stuff you have to ask other players or read detailed online guides just to play the game. There is no more official stragety guides and the manual is an utter joke. In fact.. the official stargety guide (way outdated) was more of a how to actually play then actually a "stragety" guide.

What the dev would do is add a new feature, say a "storage" npc but unless they bothered to put in the manual (and you bought the game AFTER the feature), read patch notes, or just got the game .... you would be in the dark or have to oh wait here's a npc, what does he do... hmm how does this work. To try master FFXI you have to beg / ask / have a friend to show you the ropes or you will have a doof trial and error to get the basics down.

In fact the patch notes can be more "manual" then anything they ever printed or put in to the game.

I'm excited about this goal. However, it is WAY too vague at the moment to get concerned over.

Some Possible Meanings:
1. Fewer total skills with more general uses (what the author is worried about I think)
2. Same skill system with a better nature of aquisition so that you naturally learn "easier" skills before harder ones.
3. Skills less dependent on so many variables by nature. (Example: See how complex Dervish and Assassin skills are in their skill descriptions)
4. Easy-to-learn but hard to master skills with varying levels of usefulness. (For example, imagine that instead of some dervish skills doing nothing right now unless under an enchantment, they always do SOMETHING regardless and if you're under an enchantment you get a bonus)
5. Manual aiming with less complex skills? A long shot, but hey, I think it would be cool.

If I can come up with 5 explanations in a minute, I shudder to think of ANet will come up with

maybe... but can you name a good RPG game that doesnt take at least a little time to learn? I dont want another button masher... it would not be original or interesting.


@Tozen
you are right . it is vague at the moment...it just sounds fishy...

I just hope we dont have #1. or #5 from your list

No warm and fuzzy without more details. For example, how would something like this affect mesmers? When I'm assassin hunting in AB (for fun, you know...) it's nice to know Ineptitude will leave them blind while a snare slows them down as they degen into nothingness while I remove feigned neutrality and pop clumsiness on them if they still try swinging... etc...

The details in the skills make the skills.

Granted, the new system may wind up blowing us all away in it's amazingness... but right now... no warm and fuzzy...

So..if your method is true,We'll have to grind for skills...

..Yeah.If thats true,RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO that.RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO that hard.