Rethinking monster skillbars

A common thought in many of the threads about the difficulty in PvE (or lack thereof) is that monsters often have pretty basic skillbars. They simply aren't effective in many situations. I figured the community at large could maybe come up with some ideas to make things more interesting...

The rules are simple: Rebuild the skillbars of a monster or group of monsters however you see fit. Try to keep them level-appropriate (no Elite skills for Charr) and decide early whether they're going to be gimmick builds or balanced. most mobs in Factions and Nightfall run balanced team builds, at least in the mid- to end-game areas. Do not add new monster skills, but if a monster has a monster skill, feel free to use it on the new bar. Don't bother with bosses, because the skillbar for bosses shouldn't be updated until they lose the insane double-damage bonus that they all get- doubling a bad skillbar can be bad, doubling a GOOD skillbar would just be frustrating.

The skillbars should be able to work as part of a group, but not be useless in a same-class group. The ultimate goal is to make groups that are challenging to go against, without making them ridiculously overpowered for the level they're found at.

My example: Charr (Balanced team build, levels 1-8)

Charr Axe Warrior
Cyclone Axe
Frenzy
Wild Blow
At level 5: Disrupting Chop
At level 8: Healing Signet

Charr Blade Warrior
Drunken Blow
Pure Strike
Frenzy
At level 5: Final Thrust
At level 8: "Watch Yourself"

Charr Ash Walker (Necromancer)
Plague Touch
Faintheartedness
Life Siphon
At level 5: Shadow Strike
At Level 8: Chilblains

Charr Mind Spark (Mesmer)
Fragility
Shatter Enchantment
Shatter Hex
At level 5: Energy Burn
At level 8: Chaos Storm

Charr Shaman (heal/smite monk)
Infuse Health
Heal Area
Bane Signet
At Level 5: Zealot's Fire
At level 8: Purge Conditions

Charr Scout (Ranger)
Ignite Arrows
Penetrating Attack
Troll Ungent
At level 5: Distracting Shot
At Level 8: healing Spring

Charr Flame Wielder (Fire elementalist)
Aura of Restoration
Flare
Conjure Flame
At Level 5: Fireball
At Level 8: Flame Burst

OK, this isn't the best team build ever, not even close (I've never MADE a team build before) but the essential idea is to give each monster more that they can do. The Charr went from having 2 skills each, to having 3 base, and getting a new skill added at levels 5 and 8, making them a new challenge at those levels. I used only core and prophecies skills for them, and they should be able to function in either same-class groups, or mixed groups.

Now, your turn. Feel free to give the Charr a REAL team build, or to make Trolls into super tanks. Let's see how the community would rebuild the monsters to make them into real threats (without environmental effects or uber-powerful monster skills that break every balance rule there is)

Give the AI too many skills and they dont use them all effectively. At least thats my experience with heros. Besides, people complain when they wipe from aggroing 2 mobs, how will they react when they aggro 2 mobs of super smart charr?

Just keep mob level at level 20.

The zaishen are a pretty good noob filter...more of that in PvE wouldn't hurt at all?

give hero monks 8 different healing skills. believe me, they will use "when ally is hexed" only when ally is hexed and "when ally is enchanted" only when ally is enchanted.

heroes are NOT bad at chosing skills. you simply should not add too much skills which are good in the same situation. I can give you many hero builds with 8 full used skills which pwn any of your few-skills-heroes.


/signed @ orinn, great idea

Do they do that with [wiki]Dismiss Condition[/wiki]?

nope, they use dismiss condition when someone has a condition on them, regardless of if they have an enchantment. well, at least my heroes do.

There's a post here that discusses and lists skills that heroes don't use at all or use improperly. It's a bigger list than I thought.

Yeah, the Zaishen challenge is an example of making a group that's challenging without resorting to special treatment like environmental effects and monster skills that boost damage output by up to 100%. The Zaishen teams are all (if I remember right) gimmick builds, though, with all the members running the same build to take advantage of great synergy. I don't want to make EVERY counter into a Zaishen challenge, but I'm hoping that the players could build some new skillbars to make the encounters a bit more exciting.

Look at the dredge and naga in factions: balanced builds with good synergy. The dredge gardeners are great protection monks, making fights with dredge a real challenge. Fights that draw 2 gardeners are still winnable with heroes/henchies, but they're not easy. Let's see what the community can come up with for adding challenge to monsters, and making good (btu not TOO good...) skillbars for monsters.