The current state of Heroes Ascent and propsed solutions

Just in case anybody from Arenanet is watching, I'll reiterate my stand - I just want to play simple annihilation matches with heroes and I don't really care whether that comes from HA or somewhere else. I'm not going to bother arguing any further than that though, since most arguers on both sides are simply responding to points by repeating their own instead of actually refuting them and there's no point in participating in that.

Yeah I do think that HvH should be modified to include simple annihilation matches. I'm pretty sure it would attract more players, and give us some more "real" games in HA.

Although Heros are allowed in HA and I'm pleased with this, if this is changed and only gamers and henches are allowed, I'll accept this even if it's not my preference. Whatever it's meant to be is up to Arenanet.

Just because you "covered" these reasons doesn't mean they are invalid reasons. I see flaws in most of your defenses.

There are 2 options here.
1) Fighting AI is harder than fighting humans. Answer - great! more challenge! Isn't that what PvP is about?
2) Fighting AI is easier than fighting humans. Answer - great! get to HoH faster.

Either way, heroes bring either more challenge or die fast and get out of your way, depending on their owner... who just happens to be a real person. Heroway is a way for those of us who enjoy Minion Mastery and Pet control in general to finally get into PvP. Instead of working with a bunch of pets that only understand one thing (Go fight now!!!!) and are useless until people start dieing, you get 3 "pets" that can be controlled right down to the place they stand and the skills they use, and 2 more that you can at least control where they stand.

The problem with this logic is you stand in HA and listen to people calling for one FotM build or another. If you want to try anything different or original, an HA group is just not going to be the place to do it. Even if you have already tried it out and find it to be the next big thing, nobody cares if you're not playing a build that they think is the best one for your class. So if you want to prove a new build in HA, the Heroway is the only way to do it. Also, if you're unranked, it's even harder to get a group... but under your system the only way to gain rank is... get a group! Now there's a great little catch-22 that works out great for you, but not for those of us that finally find PvP, the obvious "end-game" to our PvE game, fun under Heroway.

So somehow, adding 2 more "real people" is going to make an incredible difference in your entire opinion? You're still going to run into 3 heroes, just now the last two henchy spots will be filled by people. I fail to see where this will actually change anything. Your post might have actually been more valid had you called for a complete removal of NPC's from HA. Here's the deal: Heroes >>>> Henchies. Right now people don't know how to play heroes as well as they could, so they are being run by the AI mostly. As the good players learn this new mechanic, Heroes will begin to look a lot more like the humans that are in complete control of them, turning Heroway battles into an even better test of a real player's ability to micromanage.

If Guild Wars is only a team game, then why has Anet, on 2 of the 3 chapter releases (prophecies - henchmen, nightfall - heroes), included more options for solo play? I get the stronger feeling that GW is a build game, and that's the way I play it and love it. But now, I get to not only design my own build, but really work the numbers and create an entire team build with my heroes, and control it myself if they can't figure it out. There is no other game out there to my knowledge which lets you customize your entire team to such detail, and gives you as much control over their abilities. There is certainly no game which then allows you to test those team builds against other humans in a ladder competition. Heroway rocks for those of us who enjoy this type of game.

Deer-getters grind (having fun the whole time... that's their thing), while their opponents have fun slaying their team, or learning from their mistakes just like playing a full group of humans. If you're not having fun, why are you playing?

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One thing that surfaces from your arguments is that somehow playing 5 AI's and 1 human is less fun for you than playing 3 AI's and 3 humans. However, playing with 5 AI's as the only human is more fun for me than trying to find 2 more people who will try the builds I tell them to in order to synergize perfectly with the team I've worked hard to design and build... or at least have the reflexes of the healer and ranger henchy.

Some people (like you) enjoy playing the Marine. You fight in the trenches with a few of your buddies trying to win the day against the evil of the world. Some of us (like me) enjoy playing the Commander. We train our troops and lead them into battle, barking orders the whole way.

The fact is: neither of these playstyles is more or less consistent with Anet's goals for the game... and you can have both. If you are so good at destroying AI teams, then mow over them and move on. They're no different from the inevitable group of noobs.

The real problem is that, due to the huge influx of noobish players from the launch of nightfall, the ranking system is out of wack (because they're farming rank off of each other). As the better players destroy the noobs more in the coming weeks, the noobs ranks will decrease and the veteran's ranks will increase, so after a while you'll only be playing the good Heroways that really are a challenge (because all the heroes are being controlled by a good human).

So, let the dust settle for a while. If you're still running into a bunch of noobish heroways after a month or so, then what Anet really needs to work on is the ranking system, not providing more barriers for entry to the awesome contest that is HA.

Im not going to quote you because.. there is simply to much to quote but basically you fail to grasp that its PvP which means Player vs Player not Player vs Heroes.

That was truly an awesome post.

The simple truth is that people have different views or ideas on what's fun and what isn't. Now the reason I am bothered by this drastic change is that HA, which was initially a PvP gametype for the marine, was changed to accomodate the commanders. Now us mariners have been playing HA for a while, and I personally hate the fact the gametype i liked most was completely changed in order to please the commander, a newcomer to HA.
Also, the actual number of players is decreasing (check ID districts if you dont believe me, this really is an undeniable fact), so it is safe to say that more people preferred the marine type game HA has been for the past year and a half.
All seems pretty dodgy to me. HAers have nagged a lot in the past over pointless things, but this update caused too much of a change.
Now the "commander" has two arenas, and there is no arena the "marine" can enjoy (GvG is not being considered an arena).

You know, the GvG matching system was not as accurate as it is now a few months ago.
It was not uncommon to fight a rank 50+ guild being a rank 500- guild. You got completely destroyed when it happened (without even a chance to learn something). It was not fun for either side - high ranked guild could not gain much points (as you were low-ranked) and did not have a good PvP experience and the low ranked guild was pawned and did not have too a good PvP experience.
People complained. It was fixed. And now the GvG matching system is rather good.

HA suffers exactly I think the same kind of problem. The newbies are mixed with the hardcore HA'ers, making unpleasant PvP experience for both sides.
The rank elitist discrimination was not either a good thing, as it simply kept the newbie out of HA, making "Sport Division As Football" based on rank. You were seeing rank group forming, like football divisions, the R3+ division, The R6+ division etc...
I thing this is the great drama of HA; to hold halls you must be skilled and learn a bunch of things, and thus the newbie can't really compete with the veteran. Matching team with the same skill could be a solution, even if I really don't know how to do this the better way so the newbie and the pro have both the chance to hold halls.
I still stand on my point: removing heroes is not the correct answer to the problem.

AI has always been in HA. Ghostly Hero. Pets. Minions. Henchmen. Deal with it.

Progor

I too agree with The Silver Star, too much to quote on and the purpose of this post is to remove Heroes from HA.
I do not agree with Yunas Ele's part on the 50% requirement for a team, for what you have stated that it will impact the current situation very little. Thats why its either to keep them in or to remove them completely.

Yet, I am for the removal of Heroes, so I oppose you.
For your 1st counter-argument, "Fighting AI is harder than fighting humans. Answer - great! more challenge! Isn't that what PvP is about?"
Yes, it is great to have such a challenge, but that is not what PvP is all about when NPCs are added, other then the objective NPCs like the Ghostly Hero (So no one states some sarcastic remarks).
That would turn the Current PvP System to a P/E vs P/E type of game play.

For your 4th counter-argument on this game being a build game.
I agree, but the true way of testing out your build is for you to actually test the build yourself and not with your heroes.
You may work on a team build with yourself try it on a couple of heroes, but if you were to switch those builds to a team full of players, it may not work out the same way.
Computers, NPCs, Heroes are well aware of their team's condition as well as their opponent. As where regular human players tend to not be as active and lively.
AI is always better (Author of the scripts chooses for it to make mistakes or not). Currently we do not know how it is.

Lastly, You Last argument of Deer-Grinding.
Yes, it may be fun to some people, but the main point of MMO RPGs is to spend time and work your way up to certain ranks and statues.
You may have a lot of fun early on, and once you reach that certain rank, what are you going to do now?, the majority might quit (I'm assuming).
Causing less of those extra people to group and game play might just change to PVP with Heroes.
And if this is to happen, GW would be flooded with people who would be showing off their Deer rank rendering GW's rank system completely useless.

Ghostly Hero is there for capping purposes and morale boost for rez sig recharges.

Pets are used as cannon fodder and to fuel IWAY. And anyway, pets themselves have serious, serious issues when it comes to battlefield control. Not to mention, you don't have one player controlling four to five pets at a time if someone is playing a Thumper. Plus, pets are, at best, a two-skill extension of the player...and barely functions as it is.

Minions? I can't remember the last time I saw an honest-to-god MF in HA, let alone a Necro doing anything more than Putrid or Consume Corpse from Death magic. Even a Me/N for a fast casting WotP is stretching it.

Henchmen are meaningless. Serious players avoid henchmen, because they're useless. You only use henchmen to fill out a team. Not to build one with only one person.

Don't kid yourself. AI has not always been in HA. Deal with it.

/signed

Heros Ascent used to be about player skill and the ability to work with a team to complete the objectives.

What is being learned now? How to call a target ad nauseum? Hope to get lucky?

Isn't there already a place for bot teams to fight, aka Hero Battles?


This is by far the dumbest thing anet has done. I'm convinced that they make these changes so that people that constantly play will quit, then their bandwidth costs go down. It's hard enough to get groups going for Heros Ascent, but when r10+ buddies dont want to ha because of all the heroway, then something is clearly wrong and anet just doesn't care.

I'd love to go over your entire post, but I realise the hour I could spend going over your post with a fine tooth comb and explaining what Guild Wars PvP is to you in terms you could understand is time I could spend doing somthing far more productive, like banging my head against a wall.

/signed

Great post Yuna's

Players vs Players please, not Players vs Player/w heros.

To go over a couple of things for new players which are not being read in the FIRST post of this topic.

So what?! You have 3 heros to fit with skills and 8/9 classes of hero to choose from. Who is going to tell you which skills are good and which are bad?
You are not going to be able to come in with heros and make loads of fame.
The only ones getting loads of fame from heroway are the people who already have loads of fame, i.e Yuna's. Because they have spent time learning tactics and builds.
Heros wont tell you why you died or why they couldnt heal you or what conditions they have on them so you can deal with the attackers. Dunkoro wont say he couldnt heal you because he didnt have any energy because you gave him Mending or because he is being surged.
You will not learn squat from heros and you will not learn the most basic part of HA, i.e- the friends list.

Most rank R3/6/9 pugs in ID1 SUCK. There I said it. You do not want to be in these teams.
Trying to get a Bambi just so you can join them is pointless and not worth your time. Most of these teams will try countless runs and not make it past Broken Tower. Then you have to deal with rage quitters, people going afk mid-battle and all kinds of crap.
For most players pugging in ID1 is the very last resort of desparation, if they want to play HA they will ask guildies or friends first, and for most teams made with friends or guild, getting a PuG in ID1 to fill out a space is the very very very last resort.
The good teams that are winning HoH are the ones made from peoples friends lists.
You are better off making your own teams and making unranked friends and playing with them on a regular basis. Sure you will have to spam for people for a while too and you will get some good people and some crap people.

After a while you will make enough friends and they in turn will call you when they need people. If some one in a ranked team says "Hey I know someone who is good but they arent XX rank, what do you guys think?" The answer will mostly be "Yes take them and try them out " This way your list expands.

Everything needed to know about getting on in HA is in the quotes in the first post of this topic. Read and digest. Remember- everyone in this game started out with 0 fame, people with high ranks put in the effort and they got the rewards.

/signed

I do like Heroes in HA, simply because Heroes > Zaishen Henchmen when you need them, but there shouldn't be more AI players than people.

Out of curiousity, how could you post this;
And then quote this;
I don't play HA... Pretty much ever. Not with heroes, and not with humans. But I can tell you, if those kinds of comments in your first post are supposed to cultivate civil discussion, you've got a strange idea of what civil discussion is. Unless of course it's "Patronizing and insulting whoever disagrees with me", in which case, that's not at all an uncommon attitude.
Whether you say them yourself, or by proxy, quoting someone else (and calling them 'excellent' to boot), they're still flamebait. I don't moderate Sardelac, as quality control is a bit different here, but if this is closed for breaking out into flames, you've got nobody but yourself to blame.

</off-topic>

That being said... Though I don't have any experience to back it, I think more time should be given. If it really sucks, people who are trying to do it to win won't stick around all that long. If they're rank farming, fame requirements increase exponentially; After a point, they're going to give up on it and move on.
Or, they'll get better, and provide some more interesting competition.

However, if things don't change for the better, yes, I could definitely see either cap on hero usage being reasonable. It's always felt like to me that heroes were put into the game to fill in gaps rather than replace entire teams, though I'd never personally want to mandate people's playstyles.

Life sucks, grab a helmet!

Keep heroes everywhere. They are more fun to play with than most of the people out there anyway.

I would love it if I could take 7 heroes with me.

Theres nothing wrong with that. I suggested that at least 50% of the team be real players, not 100%. Theres really nothing wrong with having a team of 5 (or even 3 or 4) and grabbing the last as a hero if you're getting impatient or can't find the last or whatever reason. The problem is when 95%+ of the teams you fight consist of 1 or 2 players and 4-5 AI bots.

Ya, I wouldn't mind that either. Would be nice if their were different 'modes' to HvH or something, instead of only having the one style of map as it is. I see where you're coming on and personally wouldn't mind an arena like that either, but the thing is, it just doesn't belong in HA. I'm guessing you didn't HA much before this update so you don't really see our point of view. For most of us, this new form of HA is horrible in comparison to what it use to be.


Hmm, it probably wasn't the best post to quote but it had a solid point in it, just with a few flames in it. Maybe I should of editted out the flames but whatever the damage has been done.

Before I get started I'd like to refer you to my original post on the subject. It goes through some of my arguments more rigorously than I'll probably do so here.

You are correct that there are two broad options (in reality bots are better than some poor players and nowhere near the level of the decent ones, making up a sort of indeterminate middle) but the conclusions you draw from them are simply inaccurate. Let's examine each option in particular before drawing larger conclusions. Your first given option is that fighting the AI is more difficult or challenging and that is what PvP is about. You are incorrect here. PvP is not about challenge, it is about challenge with respect to competition among players. That is a subtle but very important distinction. PvP is about pitting yourself against other people in a struggle for dominance. Placing machines into this sort of challenge makes no sense. Machines do not compete, they merely operate. Your second option maks the false assumption that all anyone wants is to get to HoH faster. On the contrary, most people desire precisely the opposite. Skips are something that are disliked, not prized. Players who enter PvP want to play the full range of PvP options within the arena which entails fighting all maps if at all possible.

Please refer to my original post (linked above) and my acessibility v value argument for the response to this line of reasoning.

I don't see any reason to accept this assertion. In fact, all possible evidence seems to point against it. How else would new FoTMs occur if not for people proving new builds in HA? And since FoTMs occured before the inception of heroes, the logical conclusion is that heroway is not the only way to test new builds. Further, I would assert that heroway is incapable of testing new builds accurately because heros are incapable of using certain types of skills effectively. Interrupts for example, or maintained enchantments. Heros cannot chain an Aegis even, and yet the claim is made that they provide valid testing evidence? I find that somewhat absurd.

Please explain this to me: if there are so many players who, like yourself, claim they cannot enter groups because of rank, why don't they get together and make groups? It seems to me that the lack of initiative is what is causing these players difficulty, not the ranking system. In any case, this is merely a different form of the accessibility argument that I covered fully in my linked post.

I'm with you on this one. Adding another person to the mix offers a solution to precisely none of the issues. Scrapping heroes entirely is the only solution.

You're equivocating. You absolutely need a team for every portion of GW. Your equivocation comes in taking heroes as teammates but then excluding them from counting since they aren't real people. Heroes most certainly do count as teammates, they are simply controlled by a machine rather than a person.

Even assuming the above, I see no issue. There's a specific arena entirely designed for what you're proposing, the Hero v Hero arena. Removing heroes from HA would in no way defeat your ability to play with an entirely customized team of heroes. The above is simply not a relevant objection to removal.

On the contrary, as I covered in my original post they are fundamentaly distinct. I won't go into the argument again, but I ask that you please refer to my link.

/signed
However the changes in HA has served a good purpose for me, previously my guild was split on our focus (some really preferred HA over gvg), but now that its a complete joke we can fully focus on climbing the ladder.

It is really sad though, if Anet wanted to kill the arean they should have just ended it swiftly instead of drawing out a slow and painful death.

Maybe you should spend some time actually reading or replying something of use to this progor's thread because it was one of the few that actually brought up some valid points. I do disagree with him on his post but it was very well made so I will give him some of my time to reply.

These two options have already been discussed multiple times in others posts. Certainly #1 is not the issue, It's #2 Fighting AI is easier. However you seem to think of this as a good thing? This is not the case at all. Many of us used to play HA for the challenge and the competition. Once you realize fame is irrelivent than that was truely the only thing many of us had left in HA. Another thing That #2 easier winning means, is that getting fame faster for players using heroway vs heroway is diluding the fame system. As i said before fame is irrelvent but some people still seem to use it for random pug's because well... thats all we really have to determine experiance. So if this heroway trend is allowed to continue many of these new players will get thier rank 3 and be able to join a pug. This seems like a good thing right? Well the problem is by diluding the fame system Random pug req's will jump to 6+ and the only rank 3+ pugs will be players earning it by heroway. Now because you get very little knowlage and experiance from heroway, imagine putting 6 of these players together.... you get a failed group, then it is back to heroway for them.

If you are suggesting that keeping hero's will actually contribute to originality you are sadly mistaken. Very few people if any will use heros in this way, I'm sure you would because you seem like a good guy, but the majority will use it to exploit overpowered FotM builds and farm other heroways for easy fame. By implementing heros in HA I think it has killed more creative teams of real players losing to heroway than it will ever create.

Now this I actually agree with you on. I am however for the complete removal of heros in HA. But if a large enough portion of the community wants heros I think there should be a limit. Anyway there is no way 1 person can Micro 4 hero's while under heavy pressure well enough to be a challenge. It just isnt going to happen. But maybe 3 people, 1 hero per person may have a better chance of giving us that challenge we desperatly seek.

Well your thinking on this is a bit silly in my opinion, feels like your grasping at something that just isnt there. Sure anet has allowed henchmen in HA groups, but only as much as 50% of the team (unless someone err 7's) so why not continue this trend.

Quite possibly your best argument, love the analogy. I understand this commander point of view. I myself love to play RTS and i understand you get that feeling from playing with hero's. The problem with you controling all the henchmen as I stated before is that 1 person can not provide an adequate challenge with microing hero's. There is just too much going on in the game at some points that you cannot command all your hero's and have good enough battlefield awareness to see what the other team is doing. You cannot watch all 6 of the other team and be prepared for what is next while desperatly trying to manage AI. However You sir would make an excellent team leader. You see, there are these things called players and when one person (the commander) directs them calling strategy and telling them what needs to be done over VOIP great things can be accomlished. However these so called players can also make up for your lack of battlefield awareness (because no one can do everything at once) and think for themselves at some points when it's truely needed.

Again great post Progor, you really made some of the best arguements for the other side. Also have to apologize for some of our side (you know who you are) for not fully appreciating your post.

Again remove Heros from HA before it's dead.