Some advice

I'm somewhat new to Guild Wars. I'm not looking to be completely hardcore or follow any sort of cookie cutter build. I'm just looking to be moderately successful in pve while questing with my friends.

I chose Ranger/Monk. I am also intending to use a pet, because I like the novelty. So far I've been concentrating my points in Expertise, Beastmastery, Marksmanship, and Healing Prayers. I don't intend to use any other trees.

Does anybody have any advice for a pet-utilizing healing ranger?

I was once like you, I have a R/Mo and I wanted a pet too. Sadly, the further I went into the game, the less time I used my pet.

In order to get the most damage out of your pet, put beast master to 12. To get the most damage out of your bow, put marksmanship to 12. Expertise will lower the cost of energy for all non-spell skills that you have, so comfort animal will heal your pet well with little energy used. I would not use any healing prayers, just use mend ailment and rebirth.

Get runes for Marksmanship, beastmastery and expertise. If you want all four attributes, you will not be able to maximize any one stat.

What I did, was have Expertise: 2, Marksmanship 12, Beastmastery 12, Wildernes Surivial 4. Using minior runes and a mask.

I don't have a build for you, but if you look for a pure Ranger build (including beastmaster build) you can come up with something to your liking.

Good luck, and have fun.

Quote: Originally Posted by Pick Me

Quote: Originally Posted by Pick Me

Quote: Originally Posted by Amy Awien

In general, 12 is a fine goal (though some skills have 'breakpoints' at 13 or 14), with a few runes and a mask you can easily get 3 stats on 12/13

Quote: Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Quote: Originally Posted by SnipiousMax I don't agree with that. If you are playing a damage build, Mark's should be 16, without question. Nobody said much about pure damage builds, not a ranger's territory anyway.

But even if you go damage, I do question that dogma.
Pet and Bow combined, for instance, does more damage then a marksmanship-only bow.
Wilderness Survival has effective preparations, Kindle Arrows for instance adds 20 damage (@12 WS) to your arrows and Apply Poison ... 13 seconds ([email protected]) of 8 HP/sec is >100 HP, and it can be applied against multiple targets.

Quote: To say that you should not max a stat because of declining returns is not true. But it is true, no matter how often you say it is not, that the returns decline. From 0-12 every rank incremement yields approx +9% (base)damage, after 12 it's only +3.5%. It's less - and there is nothing to compensate.

Although there may be builds where it is ok, blindlyopting for 16 in a weapon stat is not a good idea. It is not my opinion that one should not (as in never) maximize a stat, just that maximizing should not be automatic.


Quote: Criticals, added damage, and other benefits cannot be overlooked when considering how many points to put into an attribute. You'll have to weigh different options and their benefits, and not just blindly maximize one stat.

Quote: Originally Posted by Amy But it is true, no matter how often you say it is not, that the returns decline. From 0-12 every rank incremement yields approx +9% (base)damage, after 12 it's only +3.5%. It's less - and there is nothing to compensate. Quote: Marksmanship is a ranger attribute that increases the damage and critical hit rate of bow attacks. There are a large number of Marksmanship skills and these predominantly increase bow attack damage and interrupt enemies.
Retrieved from "http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Marksmanship" I'm not denying the declining returns... I'm just saying that shouldn't be your only reason not to max an attribute.

You'll notice that there are three things it mentions in the description of the Marksmanship attribute. You've only acknowledged one of them. So I'd start reading here. In addition to the increase in base damage, you also enjoy an increased percentage to Critical hits, and increased damage from Marksman skills. Base damage is increased in diminishing returns... but it IS increased.

Quote: Originally Posted by Amy Awien Nobody said much about pure damage builds, not a ranger's territory anyway. You'll notice that I did not include the word 'pure' when I made my statement. Not a Ranger's territory? Yet they do it very well. You do not need many points dedicated to the 'utility' aspect of a ranger. They fufill the roles they were designed to play fairly easily without sacrificing damage output. In PvE where gameplay is essentially about steamrolling mobs, while not getting steamrolled, any character that is not dealing damage, whether directly or indirectly, or mitigating damage (monks) is dead weight. Yes, the ranger has alot of utility. Yes there are many things we can do. But as damage dealers, whether you chose to focus on it or not, Rangers easily hold their own.

Quote: But even if you go damage, I do question that dogma.
Pet and Bow combined, for instance, does more damage then a marksmanship-only bow. Yes, but a dedicated beastmaster or a dedicated bowman can maintain the damage output much longer than a hybrid. My earlier edit got lost in a system error, but I had intended to go back and acknowledge the hybrid exceptions. They deal more damage initially, but as their energy drops, the damage output drops as well. It depends on the scope of the comparision which will deal more damage.

Quote: Originally Posted by Amy Wilderness Survival has effective preparations, Kindle Arrows for instance adds 20 damage (@12 WS) to your arrows and Apply Poison ... 13 seconds ([email protected]) of 8 HP/sec is >100 HP, and it can be applied against multiple targets. Apply poison does not need many points at all in Wilderness survival to be an effecitve means of damage dealing. Apply poison is usually something you use when you're doing something else (ie... cripshot). If you are playing an apply ranger, you usually tab through targets, spreading the poison, and so the duration does not have to be very long to be effective. But really you have to have a very good primary function for apply to be super effective. Just tabbing through poisoning things isn't neccesarily a function in of itself.

Kindle, I'm not fond of. Especilaly if that is your only reason for bring wilderness survival. One it deals damage in packets rather than +damage, and as such is reduced by armor (so the actual damage gained is misleading). Second, If you are specing for damage, again you have to look at the scope. Putting 12 points into wilderness means that you have to drop Marks or expertise or both. If you drop marks, the base damage drops, your bow attacks + damage drops, and your critical attack rate drops. If you drop expertise then you cannot maintain your damage as long. If you do both, then the negatives aren't as bad, but there's twice as many of them. Since most Rangers keep Expertise at the break points... that means your dropping it from Marks. Rather than split your points evenly into two attributes to deal damage. Why not pile them into one, use RtW and avoid the problems mentioned? In nearly every comparision I've done, the damage gained or lost from either option is negligible, so why even bother spliting yoru attributes like that for little to no gain, or even a loss? Practice is very different than theory.



Quote: Originally Posted by Amy Although there may be builds where it is ok, blindlyopting for 16 in a weapon stat is not a good idea. It is not my opinion that one should not (as in never) maximize a stat, just that maximizing should not be automatic. Of course it shouldn't be done Automaticly. Neither should blindly opting not to put 16 in an attribute for an imagined gain. You should have a reason for spreading your attributes, and it should be a good one. Something that gives you noticable improvement in areas that would be hindered otherwise. There are several notable Ranger builds where a max stat isn't needed (ie... Cripshot Ranger, Choking Gas Ranger, etc.) But those are builds set to fill a certain role. In a normal everyday situation, you need to look at what you'll be doing most of the time. If it's auto-attacking or using bow attacks... then it should only lead that most of your points should be backing that function. If it's dancing around droping traps... then again, it should be reflected in your attributes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy You'll have to weigh different options and their benefits, and not just blindly maximize one stat. I couldn't agree more. But I've found that making my stats equal across the boards really doesn't get me much in the way of utility, while seriously crippling my offensive contribution. Quote: Originally Posted by Amy Maximizing one stat is certainly not a good idea if the basis of your build is in multiple stats. Many builds have important skills that are linked to more then one or two attrbiutes. And in most cases those important skills are every bit as effective with a smaller amount in the attribute. Quote: Originally Posted by Amy This is so extremely generalized that it has become nonsense. Same could be said of the blanket statement saying that maxing an attribute is mostly a bad idea. Whether you believe it's nonsense or not. MM's run 16 in death. Monks generally focus on either Healing or Protecting, and never do smiting at the same time. Hybrids have their uses, and there are very powerful builds that run without max stats... But how can a 12 Sword warrior compare to a 16 sword warrior, regardless of what gains the 12 sword thinks he's getting?

how long have you been playing the game? you will have to choose between bow or pet, but that does not mean you will have to give either up. you have to concentrate your damage on either pet or bow.

if on pet: 16 BM, +minimun required by your bow

if on Bow: 16 marksmanship +9 or 8 in BM

after many testing i fing that this is the most convnient way. rest dump in expertise (the *godly* attribute that i try to never have less then 9) and whatever left in wildernrss. i dont have GW on this PC, so i cant tell you the EXACT attributes, ill edit my post later on today

about your pet, the less points that you put in him the less damage he will do. so you will have to concentrate your damage in 1 area, and second have more like a support line.

Quote: Originally Posted by SnipiousMax I'm not denying the declining returns... I'm just saying that shouldn't be your only reason not to max an attribute.

You'll notice that there are three things it mentions in the description of the Marksmanship attribute. You've only acknowledged one of them. So I'd start reading here. Don't patronize me, I've refrained from giving you any links as I felt that would be disrespectfull. I've done the numbers, do some number crunching yourself. The diminishing returns are part of the reason to start looking at skills other then what is in marksmanship, as soon as you hit 12.

The chance of getting a critical hit is 22.9% at marks 16 and @12 it's 17.4
With 16 marks, the DL is 68, at 12 it's 60, the damageratio between them is 2^(8/40) = 1.15

Using a max damage 15-28 +15% customized +20% bow (not a horn bow), at 12 marks this does 21.5*1.15*1.2 = 30 damage on average, at 16 marks this is 21.5*1.15*1.2*1.15 = 34 damage on average.

A critical hit scores max damage at -20EAL, or 1.41 times the damage. At 12 marks I find: 28*1.15*1.2*1.41 = 54, at 16 marks: 28*1.15*1.2*1.41*1.15=63.

At 16 marks you score a critical 22.9% of the time, the total base arrowdamage then is (22.9*63 + 77.1*34) / 100 = 40.6
At 12 marks this is (17.4*54 + 82.6*30) / 100 = 34.2

The gain for all your efforts in maximizing is only 6.4.

Kindle Arrows adds 20 damage at WS=12, Read the Wind 10. Kindle more then makes up for the damage added by the higher marksmanship.

Quote: You'll notice that I did not include the word 'pure' when I made my statement. As I never stated that maximizing a single stat is always out of the question. I do question the dogma of maximizing marksmanship.


Quote: Yes, but a dedicated beastmaster or a dedicated bowman can maintain the damage output much longer than a hybrid. A hybrid can maintain a high damage output indefinately and I don't see how one can maintain longer then that? I've played a hybrid and never got into energy problems.

Quote: ... acknowledge the hybrid exceptions. They deal more damage initially, but as their energy drops, the damage output drops as well. I doubt you have examined and tested every hybrid possible so I do not see how you can make such a generalized claim. I've played with hybrids, I know they can do a load of damage and they do not (have to) run out of energy.

Quote: Apply poison does not need many points at all in Wilderness survival to be an effecitve means of damage dealing. Apply poison is usually something you use when you're doing something else (ie... cripshot). If you are playing an apply ranger, you usually tab through targets, spreading the poison, and so the duration does not have to be very long to be effective. It is when you stay with one target that you don't need a long duration, since the poison will be apllied again and again. It is when you cycle through targets that I think you'd want a longer duration on your posion.

Quote: Kindle, I'm not fond of. ... One it deals damage in packets rather than +damage, and as such is reduced by armor (so the actual damage gained is misleading). Packets? What do you mean by that? It really doesn't matter that you get more, smaller numbers 34+20 still equals 54 and that is more then 51
The only thing I can think where seperate damage-packets are less usefull then one big one, is with damage reduction. And warrior damage-reduction applies only on physical damage and not on elemental.

RtW's bonus is armor ignoring damage, while Kindle's is not, that is true. But, basedamage is also affected by armor and the gain you had from a higher marksmanship is reduced. And conditions totally ignore armor. What is best depends on what you expect to encounter.

Quote: Second, If you are specing for damage, again you have to look at the scope. Putting 12 points into wilderness means that you have to drop Marks or expertise or both. If you drop marks, the base damage drops, your bow attacks + damage drops, and your critical attack rate drops. If you drop expertise then you cannot maintain your damage as long. See above for some numbers. A high WS Kindle gains 10 dmg compared to RtW, which is more then enough to compensate for the loss in basedamage.
There is no need to drop expertise, as the gain from decreasing marks by 2 or 3 points (from 16) is enough to increase WS from (near) nothing to medium-high.

Quote: If you do both, then the negatives aren't as bad, but there's twice as many of them. That is bullshit-reasoning.

Quote: In nearly every comparision I've done, the damage gained or lost from either option is negligible, so why even bother spliting yoru attributes like that for little to no gain, or even a loss? I haven't seen your comparisions yet.

My most commonly used BM build is:

12 beast (8+3+1)
13 exp (12+1)
9 ws (7+2)
9 marks (8+1)

The skills i use is:

apply poison, kindle (depends on foes)
call of haste
tiger´s fury
enraged lunge {e}
troll unguent
comfort animal
charm animal
FREE SLOT (usually bring rebirth or possibly call of protection)


With that i can do dmg with bow and with pet. Enraged after tiger´s gives me max bonus and my pet does 100+ dmg on most enemies regardless of lvl

Wow, Amy and Snipious have MASSIVE posts :P

at basics Cedar's build will get you all the way through pve, one point I'd change though is the expertise, there are breakpoints at 12 and 14 expertise. at 12 all 5 cost skills cost 2 and at 14 all 10 costs drop to 4. 13 exp gives nothing over 12 so I'd go 12 since you are spreading points accross 4 attributes. the extra 20 points I'd drop into bm or marks. I also really think read the wind is highly underrated in pve, the numbers don't look as high at first glance true, but its additive as well as making more arrows hit due to decreased flight times. I personally can't imagine life without an interrupt, but this IS from a guy whos favorite build runs savage shot, punishing shot AND distracting shot

Quote: Originally Posted by Dodo The Extinct Wow, Amy and Snipious have MASSIVE posts :P Yeah, I know.
And I've only replied to half of the material that was available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lennymon ... the expertise, there are breakpoints at 12 and 14 expertise. at 12 all 5 cost skills cost 2 and at 14 all 10 costs drop to 4. 13 exp gives nothing over 12 so I'd go 12 12 and 14 are breakpoints for 10E, 13 is the breakpoint for 5E skills: 12 -> 100 - 48% = 52% ... x 5 = 2.6 -> 3 ... x 10 = 5.2 -> 5 13 -> 100 - 52% = 48% ... x 5 = 2.4 -> 2 ... x 10 = 4.8 -> 5 14 -> 100 - 56% = 44% ... x 5 = 2.2 -> 2 ... x 10 = 4.4 -> 4

Quote: Originally Posted by Amy Don't patronize me, I've refrained from giving you any links as I felt that would be disrespectfull. I apologize. I didn't neccesarily intend for it to show any disrespect, although I wasn't too careful about it not being taken that way either. As guildwiki was quoted ealier, I did want this link to contribute, as I felt it has something to add. I apologize for my short sightedness.


Quote: <snip> ...calculations and numbers...<snip> Your numbers don't (and can't effectively) show the added damage from +damage skill on the marks line. This is also the case with your calculations for Kindle vs. RtW.


Quote: Originally Posted by amy Kindle Arrows adds 20 damage at WS=12, Read the Wind 10. Kindle more then makes up for the damage added by the higher marksmanship. This also does not take into account a higher expertise. Focusing on two attributes allows you to run them both higher than you would normally. Higher expertise means less energy required per attack skill, which means more damage over time. Even if you were absolutely in love with Kindle, it's very easy to have a 16/9/11 spread which gives you a +18 on kindle AND the increased damage form 16 marks. But personally I'd rather have more in expertise, and forget WS altogether.


Quote: Originally Posted by Amy As I never stated that maximizing a single stat is always out of the question. I do question the dogma of maximizing marksmanship. Quote: Originally Posted by Amy Maximizing any one stat is frequently not a good idea Maybe I'm misunderstanding your initial post... but I'm sorry that one line is what sparked my intrest in the discussion to begin with. If that is not the case, then I apologize. Had the line said something along the lines of "is not always" or "sometimes", I proballly wouldn't have posted at all. Granted, my reply contained an equally polar comment... one I should have phrased better. But I still maintain, that there is more to be gained from maxing than your subsequent posts have stated.


Quote: Originally Posted by Amy A hybrid can maintain a high damage output indefinately and I don't see how one can maintain longer then that? I've played a hybrid and never got into energy problems. This part of the Arguement would be helped if you could post an example. If you are bringing mostly pet skills or mostly bow skills, then I'd still have to say that maxing an attribute is a benefit. If you are running something like Tiger's Fury and Enraged Lunge, you can easily see how quickly your energy is depleted.

Quote: I doubt you have examined and tested every hybrid possible so I do not see how you can make such a generalized claim. I've played with hybrids, I know they can do a load of damage and they do not (have to) run out of energy. I haven't. But I've run alot of them, and I run them often. It requires alot of micromanaging to make sure you don't run out of energy too quickly, but you are nearly always running on an deficiet, where with many of the focused builds I've played, I can easily finish an entire mission without having to stop at all or having to conserve my energy use.

Quote: Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Quote: Originally Posted by SnipiousMax Your numbers don't (and can't effectively) show the added damage from +damage skill on the marks line. This is also the case with your calculations for Kindle vs. RtW. Where are your numbers? You know, with the +damage, their difference at 12 and 16 marks, and their damage and energyload per minute and all that.

I've given enough numbers, now it is your turn to come up with something. Start digging

Quote: This also does not take into account a higher expertise. Focusing on two attributes allows you to run them both higher than you would normally. 13, 14 tops in expertise would really be all you need. Starting with 12 ranks (without runes) in expertise may be a bit over the top to reach 13 when 10-ish would do. Some uses may do fine with only 9 expertise, other 13. Finding the right expertise level is a case of trial and error aiming for the dreaded 'Not enough energy' to become very rare.

Quote: Maybe I'm misunderstanding your initial post... I admit that it was an odd choice of words ... "frequently not a good idea" :S


Quote: If you are bringing mostly pet skills or mostly bow skills, then I'd still have to say that maxing an attribute is a benefit. If you are running something like Tiger's Fury and Enraged Lunge, you can easily see how quickly your energy is depleted. No, not really. Tiger's Fury itself is expensive at 10E, reduced to 5E, every 10 seconds, but still only half your regen. Enraged Lunge is only 5E, 2E with 13 expertise, every 5 seconds.

And even if energy gets thin, it's skill selection and usage that is the problem, I don't see how incrementing expertise beyond 13 (14 tops) would help a build with mostly 5E and 10E

Quote: The cycles occur quicly enough that it really doesn't need a long duration. Maybe, longer durations means more targets can be kept poisoned, but between 10 and 12 WS there's only one target.

Quote: Originally Posted by Amy Where are your numbers? You know, with the +damage, their difference at 12 and 16 marks, and their damage and energyload per minute and all that. Seems to me that this comment isn't much different than the "meaningless statement that can be used to 'prove' or 'disprove' anything you want" you accused me of ealier. It's enough that YOU didn't consider it. Even with the numbers, you'd say the difference didn't justify the cost, and I'd disagree. I really fail to see the point at this moment in time. No disrespect intended for the effort you've already put into your numbers. You have demonstrated very well why you consider it a poor choice in many situations. I'm not disagreeing with the number's you've posted in any way, but I get something different from seeing the raw numbers you've provided. What I disagree with then, is that you are turning something positive into a negative. The fact remains that there is an increase in damage. Lowering your potential damage in the name of originality does not gurantee an effective build, just as blindly running 16 in marks doesn't gurantee you'll have the highest damage output. As I said, the reasoning should be solid, and the benefits real and considerable behind your point distribution. I always ask the question: "Do I really need this skill?" And "Is there another skill that will do this just as well in another attribute?"

Quote: Originally Posted by Snipe The difference between running 12 and 16 in a weaponskill, is roughly 15-20%. That's enough for me. If you don't think that is enough reason to spec 16 in marks, than that's your discretion. You can't use Kindle as a substitute, because you can just as easily use it whether or not you have a max attribute. So the 'making up for the damage lost' is irrelevent, because you can spec to bring kindle, and still get the damage out of it.

I will however concede that my expertise comments were not accurate, as it's just as easy to run 13/14 in the situations you've offered.

Quote: Originally Posted by Amy

Quote: Originally Posted by SnipiousMax Seems to me that this comment isn't much different than the "meaningless statement that can be used to 'prove' or 'disprove' anything you want" you accused me of ealier. It's enough that YOU didn't consider it. That is incorrect. I'd have to know which attacks are on the skillbar before I can add them in. But to be honest, it is too much work at this point.

Quote: What I disagree with then, is that you are turning something positive into a negative. The fact remains that there is an increase in damage. Lowering your potential damage in the name of originality does not gurantee an effective build, just as blindly running 16 in marks doesn't gurantee you'll have the highest damage output. The intention of moving around points is not be original but, when damage output is the goal, to increase damage, or when damage is not the goal, to increase the effectiveness and useability of whatever build it is. Lowering one stat a few to increase another by many may (or may not) increase that effectiveness (damage or otherwise) but you can not really say much about that in general without examining the skills and their use.

But that doesn't really differ much from:

Quote: As I said, the reasoning should be solid, and the benefits real and considerable behind your point distribution. I always ask the question: "Do I really need this skill?" And "Is there another skill that will do this just as well in another attribute?" which seems more usefull as general advice.