PvP without the PvP Only Characters

Creating PvP only characters, I feel, makes the game a tad less immersive. While I think that being able to create a character for some instant action is cool and all, it seems like the characters we put time into (PvE) have a severe disadvantage, which isn't good at all.

The first reason I believe that creating PvP only characters is a negative feature is because I often find myself in situations where my PvE character is inferior. In a PvP only character, once you unlock certain extremely rare or valuable PvE items, such as the pieces required to make a perfect weapon or a Rune of Superior Vigor, you can attach this to all your PvP characters.

Right now, a Rune of Superior Vigor is being traded for 34 platinum. I do not have the gold to spend 34 platinum on each character of mine. However, if I made a bunch of PvP only characters, all I would have to do is click a button while making them and BAM! My PvP characters now have higher health than my PvE ones at no cost to me! Let's say the character is a warrior. Good swords can cost around 30 platinum when traded. However, at no cost to me, I can make a perfect PvP only sword. I spend maybe 4000 balthazar faction and I have everything I need (as many times as I need it I might add), as opposed to working hard and earning my sword. Not only is this unfair in the fact that I spent hours and hours on my PvE characters only to make a superior one in a matter of minutes, but PvP and PvE characters fight in the same arenas, making it always advantageous to have a PvP only one!

Another thing... the premade characters are... well... really good. I was making a monk, working very hard on him, so I could boon-prot for my guild. Then, a premade Boon Prot is released. All I have to do is equip a few runes and BAM, I have a perfect level 20 boon prot and I wasted dozens of hours leveling my current monk. It should not be this way, the player should be REWARDED with putting time into a character, as opposed to simply choosing it from a list!

The fact is, when you can make a perfect level 20 character easy, it takes away a HUGE incentive to play PvE. If we could not make PvP only characters, it would give a reason to work hard with your character, teach him all sorts of skills, get the best weapons, and etc. However, instead of playing for hours and hours to do this, I can simply make a PvP only and spend none of the time working for it. Sure does take away a sense of accomplishment, but if I don't make a perfect PvP only character, I will still have to fight people who do and therefore be statistically inferior. So we are all given choices: Spend dozens and dozens of hours grinding away to get your perfect character for PvP, or to make a PvP only and be done in minutes.

I believe, and I am sure that you all agree, that people who spend dozens and dozens of hours on a character should have some sort of advantage over people who click a few buttons. Unfortunately, this isn't the case. I could level up a guy from 1 to 20, but seeing how a perfect premade is sitting there, waiting to be selected, it takes away a lot of the incentive to play the PvE portion of the game for people who intend to play both the PvP and PvE parts of the game.

There are many ways to fix this (here comes the actual suggestion part). PvE characters and PvP characters could have different sets of islands for PvP gameplay, so that, while you can easily make a perfect PvP character to fight against other perfect PvP only characters on the PvP-only-islands, the PvE characters you worked so hard on could fight other PvE characters that other people worked hard on, with none of the perfect PvP only characters running around. This would be a great idea IMO, because then if you spend the time to EARN a perfect weapon, perfect runes, and an awesome build for each of your characters (as opposed to making PvP only ones and getting all the stuff for free), you would be rewarded by playing with people who don't have those things. Also, maybe even instead of balthazar faction, the PvE arena can award you gold- after all, why should you only get PvP only rewards when you have no intentions of making a PvP only character? Because basically, while PvP only characters use Balthazar Faction to earn new stuff, PvE ones need gold, so it's an even swap more or less (note how 1000 gold buys a skill from a skill trainer and that 1000 balthazar faction unlocks a skill).

In conclusion, my idea is a full fledged PvP area (Guild Battles, Hall of Heroes, Random Arenas, Team Arenas, Alliance Battles) which only PvE characters can compete in, so that you only play with characters that people put time into. If not that, I think there should be some sort of advantage for putting your time into a PvE only characters when fighting other players, because as it stands, there really is none, if anything it is a disadvantage. My idea allows PvP only characters to still have a blast, while giving PvE characters their own arenas so that they can compete with the characters they put time into against characters other people put time into.

I would like to hear the thoughts that you guys have on this.

Guild Wars has long talked about skill over grind. Just because someone doesn't want to spend hundreds of hours grinding doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to play. On another note, with the amount of possible builds, it's extremely restrictive to have weapons, armor and runes for every situation. There's just not that amount of space on a character

PvE characters are actually heavily rewarded for making themselves PvP ready. You have the option of changing armor on the fly, and having 4 or more weapons. That, plus you look darn sexy. Top guilds almost exclusively use PvE characters in GvG for this.

I really, really strongly dislike the idea of an arena where you can smack the crap out of people with inferior weapons. Why not just hang out outside Ascalon and kill devourers all day? Anyways, there are a few PvP areas where only PvE characters are allowed (Aspenwood and Jade Quarry). The current system doesn't need changing, skill > grind.

EDIT: Curse you double post! Curse youuuuuuuu!

I completely disagree - PvE characters have serious advantages over PvP characters in many aspects of the game.

1. Weapon slots: PvP characters can only have two weapon slots, while PvE's can have four. Big advantage.

2. Armor switching: PvE characters can switch armors to varying degrees to gain advantages in combat. Example: using the Boon Prot, I could make my initial cast of DB at 16 Divine, and then switch to a Sup Protection headpiece, a minor Divine headpiece, whatever would work best for the situation.

This can scale all the way to a complete armor switch if needed because of DP, the type of build (switch to health armor or physical armor or whatever based on who you're fighting, after the initial encounter).

3. PvP characters already can't get some special PvE items that are a big help (Former Nolani wand for building adrenaline comes to mind).

I've read more than one place that most top PvP guilds (I wouldn't know, I don't have much experience with it) use PvE chars anyway because there are serious and notable advantages to doing so.

There are many, many other reasons why not to nerf PvP characters, but the most notable is that it would stray away from the Guild Wars "No/Little Grind" mentality. I know they have before, but this would be a major step backwards, and would basically tell PvP-focused players to find a new game.

I make PvE characters to play PvE, not PvP. I may use them once in a while for specific PvP builds, but I normally just pay up faction to make ready-made PvP characters that can play a multitude of builds. I don't think that the PvP base would appreciate having to take a new character thru the game just to experience a new class. I have only finished the game with a Necromancer and Ranger, yet I can play Mesmer, Monk, Warrior, and Elementalist pretty well in PvP because of PvP characters.

So if PvP characters were gotten rid of, I'd would in turn loose a huge incentive to play PvP.

And if you want to play PvP with PvE characters, by all means! You most certainly will have a distict advantage over characters made in a minute or two, granted you have a moderate amount of cash.

PvP characters are in fact at a disadvantage to PvE characters. This is a fact. Heres a short list why:

PvP chars can only have 1 armor set.
PvP chars can only make 2 weapon sets.
PvP chars cannot get a Dire or Hearty Pet.
PvP chars can only have a lvl 20 pet (when a weaker pet would be more useful, like in IWAY)
PvP chars cannot hide the stats of their armor using a unified armor skin (FoW or Canthan armors)

All your points are now mooted.

There is only 1 basic advantage to a PvP char: its faster and cheaper. However a non-UAXed account would still need to grind for Balth points, so its not really faster or cheaper, just a different kind of cost. so that point is moot too.


Runes are a moot point. Anet has increased rune drop tremendously and rune farming is easy for just about all classes in Prophecies. I remember when superior absorption was at 100k. If you dont feel like farming for runes, farm for gold and buy a rune.

A PvE sword will always be superior. PvP swords are only available in Req 9. PvE swords can be req 7 with max damage. Again, another moot point.

Also. How many swords can a PvP char have when its made? Only 2.

How many swords can a PvE char have? A LOT MORE THAN 2

The new premades are a recent development. They are finally good because they have been SOOOO crappy previously. I cant understand how you can complain because Anet decided to give the PvP only premades something good finally.


Nope. PvP only players still make PvE chars because they are superior in to a PvP-only char.

Moot point, again.

Nope again a moot point. PvP-only chars are best only used as a temporary testing ground for builds until you finish you PvE char.

Theres no loss of incentive because the PvP-char is sooooooo limited and disadvantaged.

No, i disagree. Dont fragment the community, Unite it.

If you read my one post for equalizing PvE and PvP chars you will see how i had the idea for PvE chars to be able to use their unlocked skills but only in PvP areas, this would give a use for Balthazar points for PvE only characters.

My conclusion is this:

Before making any suggestions to improve gameplay or change gameplay based on your personal experience, please try and find out if the negative impact you feel is not gameplay or mechanic based, but rather based on your poor player skills, underdeveloped characters, or lack of fundamental knowledge on how the game works.

I definitely see your points, and I agree for the most part. PVE characters do for the most part have an advantage. But I do think that the OP has a valid point or 2 as well. My biggest complaint in the divide between PVP and PVE is the skills. To unlock a skill in PVP is usually free. It becomes available for all future PVP characters when you unlock it with a PVE character. However It is not available for future PVE characters. I have to relearn it/rebuy it/recapture it.

For example, I have a Warrior/necromancer from tyria. She has been through a lot. Has gotten many skills, both warrior skills and Necromancer skills. When I bought factions and merged it with my account. I made a Necro primary for PVE. None of the skills I had learned with my previous character were learned. However if I had made a Necro for PVP, I would have had access to all of those spells. So my new PVP characters have access to more skills to choose from to make a build. A new necro will have access to all the skills from my w/n, and my N/mo. without having to learn/buy/capture them. I think that is an advantage.

I hope I didnt offend anyone, that was not my intent.

While I like your idea, I must agree that it would create a greater rift between the PvP and PvE players. I think its fine that people can hop into PvP for a quick hack and slash, my only real problem comes from this:By being able to create a PvP only character(despite disadvantages) you can quickly surpass someone who has played their way through PvE by sheer fact that the time they have spent grinding through the missions, you've spent fighting against actual players.

But seeing as there are apparently already Pve only arenas,it would probably be best not to change that. We need to attempt to reconcile the differences between the two types of players, come to a middle ground instead of simply reworking the game to benefit one side or another.

It looks like the OP doesn't like the skill over time spent concept of Guild Wars.

I disagree strongly. The point of the PVE game shouldn't be to build up a character for PVP, it should be to enjoy playing the game. Let PVP'ers who want to skip it jump right in to what THEY enjoy.

If you need a way to show off how much time you have put in, there are always titles and vanity armor.

I heartily agree with Speedy.
Though I've often heard that PvE should be thought of as buildup to PvP, you can't get around the fact that some people enjoy playing one more than the other.
So let them do it, there are still random arenas and such to sate the casual hunger for killing other players.

Lyra wins the thread.

Sli, are you suggesting that it isn't fair that someone who PvP's constantly is better at PvP than someone who doesn't? I should hope the PvP player had learned something by then...

That PvP player you mentioned can't do anything in the PvE realm, either, so, the PvP player is ineffective (actually, unable to play it at all) and the PvE is bad at PvP. Seems like a balance to me.

If you had to relearn all your skills to make a PvP character, no one would make one, ever.

On the flip side, if you had access to all of your skills on your new PvE necro that you had on your Warrior/Necro... hopefully that doesn't need to be explained.

I stopped reading after this sentence because it was all I needed to read to know what the rest was going to be about. You shouldn't have an advantage because you spend time on a character.

I like the idea of having more PvP arenas that only PvE characters have access to.

Keep the current Battle Isles as they are - accessible to both PvP and PvE, but have areas within Tyria (like Cantha has with Jade and Aspenwood) for PvE characters. Only allow the creation of teams in some and random in others.

If you couldnt create PvP characters I would probably never HA/GvG again. People who want to go in and join a HA match without spending months getting max armor with 4-5 headsets with sup runes and every skills deserve a way to get in.

Basically you are asking for time spent>skill. PvE chars already have advantages as stated earlier.

If you want to work your PvE chars up to play PvP without knowing that there are PvP only chars then either go do Ft. Aspenwood/Jade Quarry or go play WoW.

/endrant

Wasn't meaning to say its unfair(Whoever says anything is fair is a liar), but it does create an incredibly large skill level gap which is difficult to close, and discouraging to players who wish to play in the main arenas casually. But the Pve only arenas mentioned takes care of that problem(I didn't know of them previous to this thread.)
My only real gripe is with PvPexclusive players who downplay the difficulty of Pve in a game which has equal challenges on both sides.
And yes Lyra wins the thread. I've been more of a Pro pve person cause i don't play pvp, don't know much about it, etc. She has thoroughly persuaded me of the balance of advantages/disadvantages between the two types.

If they seperated the pve from the pvp in arenas, I bet my pvp char wouldn't have anymore nub wammos on my team.

The whole point of PvP characters was to make it possible to jump in and immediately have a character battle ready in seconds.... sorta.

PvE characters unlock skills much faster and easier, and make your PvP characters more powerful.

A single PvE character can do alot of good for all your PvP characters.

I don't think that PvP characters need to be nerfed. I think that PvE characters need to be buffed; runes of superior vigor are expensive, and there's not a good way to farm up that much money. That is alot of money.

I'm annoyed that I can't take a PvP character into Jade Quarrey or Fort Aspenwood. They're PvP arenas, like the random arenas, right? It's how I understood them to be. I don't know why my character can enter Alliance Battles, but can't get to the Jade Quarrey or Fort Aspenwood (maybe there's some way to not let them wander in/out, like.... exactly the way that we're kept from going anywhere in all of Cantha? Just shut the door on the PvP areas -- locking people in, not out).

Guild Wars is a PvP game that is open to people who don't have 500 hours to invest to make awesome characters. PvP characters let you skip making the second or third character, and jump into PvP with something you want today.

The reason you feel inferior as a pve character is because you don't have any clue why pve exists. Pve characters make the best pvp characters because they have more weapon and armor switching capabilities. This is especially true on caster weapon switching and ranger mask swapping.

Um, you left one big reason out which is why PvP characters are superior: you completely forgot to mention that by creating a perfect PvP only character, you are saving approximately 50k on runes and weapons and such. So ok, they have TINY limitations compared to PvE characters, but most of these limitations only have rare uses when the PvP only character's advantage is constant: you can have a perfect PvP only character with no effort whatsoever. The limits of a PvP only character are very few... for example, your comment on pets at level 20... so ONE BUILD in the entire game relies on that concept... however... EVERY BUILD requires a rune of superior vigor nowadays. Point "mooted".

Now you say that you have to grind for something else... not at all. Once you unlock some stuff, you are good to go. If you start a PvE character, you have to relearn all the skills, reaquire all the runes, etc. Point "mooted".

So a PvE character can have more than 2 swords at a time. How many swords do you need? Also, you call me out for allegedly having "poor player skills". I would simply like to point out that it IS possible for a PvP only character to have up to 4 swords. Xunlai Agents ftw? Point "mooted".

Premades simply shouldn't be so good because of the fact that it allows ANYBODY to get a build people WORK to achieve.

PVP-only characters are FINE, if not SUPERIOR than PvE characters in PvP arena. Temporary? I think not. You say sooo limited. Yes, I agree, getting 50k of runes and weapons for free and an awesome build you put no effort in to earning really puts you at a disadvantage :-/

Why not fragment the community? Anet has obviously decided they want TWO game experiences available: PvE and PvP only characters. So if they are seperate experiences, they should not mingle with one another.

My conclusion about your post:

Before trying to "moot" people's points, make sure that your own points are significant in a broader scale, as opposed to applying to only rare and specific cases. Also try to be a little open minded instead of automatically denying an idea because, probably, you are simply too lazy to earn your PvE character's powers and therefore losing PvP only strength would dampen your game experience.

You say skill over grind, yet you make a reference to 15k armor I assume (darn sexy?). If you need to grind for hundreds of hours to get some runes and some swords, you really aren't very good at this game tbh. My complaint is that, with the time I spend EARNING my stuff, I could have just as easily clicked 5 buttons and got the same end product. Clicking 5 buttons to create a perfect character equals skill? hmm.

No/Little Grind mentality? Just because it's fun to label something as that doesn't make it true. There is plenty of grinding in guild wars. I simply want people who go the extra mile to be rewarded.

I love the skill over time spent. PvP'ers can jump in... like I said, keep a PvP only fighting area. It's not a point of showing off, it's the fact that when you beat the campaigns as a character, you have 2 choices:

A) Stop playing that character and create a superior PvP only one
B) Continue playing the character with no real goal, seeing how you could easily get a largely superior PvP only one.

That is probably the worst point I have ever heard about any RPG. With your logic, there should be no level system. Wait, when you spend time on a character, they level up? z0mg advantage! The whole CONCEPT of an RPG is to spend time to build up your character. I simply want a significant reward for players who "go the extra mile" and build up their character PASSED the bare mininum.

That is exactly what I want- more PvE areas for fighting. Jade and Aspenwood are good, but some more generic ones would be even better, and ones with teams would be splendid.

For the first paragraph quoted, that is exactly what I am talking about. PvE characters need SOMETHING to make them better in PvP combat, even if it simply is a lower price on stuff. It's funny, the people defending PvP characters are claiming that you shouldn't be rewarded for time spent, yet the only way to get a rune of superior vigor in PvE is to... you got it... grind away!

For your second point, I want you to notice that my suggestion still allows this. I simply want full fledged PvP combat for PvE characters. PvP and PvE characters can still fight eachother in the battle islands and such, but I think PvE characters should get MUCH more options for fighting against other PvE characters.


I believe that a main reason there is opposition to making PvE characters more rewarding is because people are simply lazy. The whole "skill>>>time spent" argument is, not only hypocritical (see bolded text above), but just an excuse to say "I don't feel like earning stuff, I have the typical give-me-satisfaction-now attitude".

However, getting all of these weapons and sets of armor requires a bit of grinding... what happened to the "skill>time spent" argument?