Curse

BE|Carcad · Aug 06, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Here are 5 shots from a multititude of screenshots.

These are not pretty pics but highlight some awesome things

One thing to note is why I posted it in general is because this is not a showoff of screenshots, but rather open discussion.

Here is a screenshot of flawlessing two teams, killing one almost entirely. Flawless as in taking no damage.

The build is a Warrior centric build that took place in First month or so of Retail. Has you can see the enemy teams have some very unsmart tactics, not even damaging the team holding the center

http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?i...lessing0pr.jpg

Here is a fertile season (spirit spam) build from BWE UAS, it only has 6 BE in it and two unfortunate pickups, we managed to get to the HoH but unable to take it.

Monk Ranger ( pets) (fertile season) and 6 heal spells, with one quick zephyr.

Here is a picture from retail of the ability to greif in the Hoh, 15 v 8 Koreans

[img=http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/7310/bloodeagle7dj.th.jpg]

Here is a picture of the average pickup group versus Blood Eagle, this one is slightly faster then our average.

Here is another pic of some problems with the HoH

http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?i...teaming8jn.jpg

Hopefully this can spark some discussion with interested pictures too

Anyway cool huh

btw this was before a lot of the unbalanced stuff hit tombs, eg spirits, smiting, etc.

Kakumei · Aug 06, 2005, 06:34 PM // 18:34

why is your interface so incredibly huge

Mormegil · Aug 06, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Nice.

But it was so long ago. Where are you guys, did you stop playing or just changed name?

BE|Carcad · Aug 06, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

why is your interface so incredibly huge

Because I am a competitive player.

Awareness basically.

Stop playing except for a few of us..

was a guild of 50+

Aniewiel · Aug 06, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by BE|Carcad

btw this was before a lot of the unbalanced stuff hit tombs, eg spirits, smiting, etc.

Just out of curiosity and really not trying to sound stupid but....here goes anyhow:

If it wasn't imbalanced -then-, what's created the imbalance -now-? Is it due to changes made since release or...?

PS And this is for everyone: You can get ad-free image hosting at http://www.imagecave.com

BE|Carcad · Aug 06, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

Just out of curiosity and really not trying to sound stupid but....here goes anyhow:

If it wasn't unbalanced -then-, what's created the imbalance -now-? Is it due to changes made since release or...?

Well its mainly Fertile season, Fertile season is a pure defensive skill.

when combined with an extra monk, or even 3 good monks... It makes a build completely defensive and like a "turtle" whereby it is impossible or near to crack the shell.

This is griefing on say KOTH, CTF, etc where tehy can simply win by not dying and blocking everyoen else off.

For instance take center, camp with massive spirit spam, blocking warriors, and then just heal away.

or

Block all entrances to flag, and cap once. etc

The other skills are not so imbalanced to be griefing, but there simplicity and slight overpoweredness allows lots of pugs to run them all the time. For instance AIR is pretty simple to be effective (just call a target and everyone spikes it).

It is not overpowered in say top level where prot spirit etc is used a lot, but in pugs it is fairly simple to run at an effective level.

Warriors would be the same except they require a very good build and a little bit of tactics.

Also warrior teams usually require coordination or you have everyone running after different people, while most of the best PUG builds are simple, and they emphasize sticking together, AIR for instance.

The skills that are overpowered.

Chain lightning, Ether Renewal, Fertile Season, Natures renewal (when combined with oath shot and other fast recycle skills).

Mormegil · Aug 06, 2005, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

If it wasn't imbalanced -then-, what's created the imbalance -now-? Is it due to changes made since release or...?

He's talking about Nature's Renewal being able to single handedly get rid of enchants and hexes, along with Spirit spamming. It's not unbalanced now, but many people discovered a couple of cheap tactics and are abusing them to hold the HoH easily.

Aniewiel · Aug 06, 2005, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Thanks, that makes sense. I just wasn't completely aware of what had changed and/or been discovered since the OP's screenshots were taken. I appreciate the information.

If NR is 'nerfed', I would imagine some sort of new work around will be discovered by some intrepid teams. Then that is nerfed. Then a new work around is discovered. That is nerfed...pretty soon it would seem that EVERYTHING would be nerfed eventually....or is that horribly flawed logic?

I am trying so hard to understand the PvP concerns and such. I appreciate rational, non-condescending replies.

BE|Carcad · Aug 06, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

btw for the actual warrior build we used

2 different styles

Axe DPS-

Cleave, Executioner's strike, Frenzy, Sprint, Fear Me! For Great Justice! Sprint, Disrupting Chop.

Sword Support

Charge!, Galrath, Final Thrust!, Frenzy, For Great Justice, Fear Me! Hamstring, Savage Slash

Axe is always using Frenzy, For Great justice (2x addren again),

same with sword

Now you use charge to stop kiters (aka chasing them down), Fear Me if they are all in a bunch (Ward radius Energy Loss), and target different monks.

4 Warriors on 1 target is stupid because 1 protection skill or anti warrior hex and you are screwed. Always just hit diff targets and only focus when needed. (diff monks of course)

Mormegil · Aug 06, 2005, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by BE|Carcad

4 Warriors on 1 target is stupid because 1 protection skill or anti warrior hex and you are screwed.

2 Warriors on a Monk/Mesmer/Ele. Cast (way too many to choose) Shatter Enchantment, Rend, Strip, NR.

Beat hard and time your "warrior spike" well.

Serve the monk fresh.

Then again, you could obtain the same results beating on diff targets, depending on the build you're facing.

ZD_kusanagi · Aug 06, 2005, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

2 Warriors on a Monk/Mesmer/Ele. Cast (way too many to choose) Shatter Enchantment, Rend, Strip, NR.

Beat hard and time your "warrior spike" well.

Serve the monk fresh.

Then again, you could obtain the same results beating on diff targets, depending on the build you're facing.

This would work against inexperienced monks obviously(which also means inexperienced teams most of the time) but against a very experienced team, having your major damage on just one target? he won't drop so fast. infact, he can probably just sit and tank it. or just run away. it's not hard to run. pin down, or ward against foes, or some kind of hex, on the warriors, mend ailment on the monk, and those warriors are useless. It's really rather simple. warrior cant attack, warrior can't do damage.

Rieselle · Aug 06, 2005, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

Thanks, that makes sense. I just wasn't completely aware of what had changed and/or been discovered since the OP's screenshots were taken. I appreciate the information.

If NR is 'nerfed', I would imagine some sort of new work around will be discovered by some intrepid teams. Then that is nerfed. Then a new work around is discovered. That is nerfed...pretty soon it would seem that EVERYTHING would be nerfed eventually....or is that horribly flawed logic?

I am trying so hard to understand the PvP concerns and such. I appreciate rational, non-condescending replies.

Well, if we think about it, if every special combination of skills that leads to an advantage is nerfed to be "balanced", then they'd all be equal, thus making build planning pointless.

Then we have the paper-rock-scissors game design, however, that's pretty pointless too, since it basically means if you've got a paper build, then when you come up against a scissors build you're pretty screwed. (since, unlike an RTS, you cant buy yourself some time and then manufacture the correct units... you're stuck with the skills you chose.)

Probably a reasonable compromise, is to have a variety of combinations of "powerful" builds, much better than if, for example, you just picked skills at random, but to ensure that these powerful builds are roughly equal in power to each other. So people who discover these builds and can play them well, will have an advantage over people who dont.

However, to make the discovery of a powerful build fun, it needs to be non-obvious, possibly difficult to use effectively, and preferably it needs to be "creative" and/or subtle. Also, there needs to be a wide variety of powerful builds, and they all need to be about the same level of effectiveness. (possibly some countering others, but generally, if A meets B, then the main determinant of victory should be their playing skill, not their builds).

Usually, variety is considered a good thing, we dont want games that have extremely limited options. (then again, many people seem to enjoy Quake 1 and its must-use-rocket-launcher weapon set)

There's also the elusive element of "fun", in that a powerful build should feel creative, cool, and interesting. And preferably look impressive.

NR & spirit spam fails these criteria, because it's more powerful than most other "powerful" builds (in certain situations...), it doesnt require much more skill and coordination than any other build, it doesnt have vulnerabilities in proportion to its power, and most of all, it just plain feels cheap and spammy :P (actually, in most games & sports, heavily defensive tactics are usually poorly thought of, seemingly.)

They dont necessarily need to nerf NR if they give us many more maps that allow for a range of playing environments - including some that heavily penalises defensive play in favour of aggressive play. However, compared to other similar skills, NR is heads and shoulders more effective. So, to satisfy the requirement of variety, it should be nerfed and other enchant removals buffed so that they are all equal at some reasonable level of power.

That's my wannabe-games-designer take on it, anyway.

Edit: As a counterexample, take the repeat suicide->mass zombie minion build. It's certainly fairly powerful, but not too much more than other specialised builds, and it has many weaknesses. However, it's pretty damn cool looking and fun to use and fun to play against. I haven't heard many complaints about it - most people seem to enjoy seeing it.

Edit 2: My personal preference is for the skills to be designed so that balanced teams are the most powerful of all, that having a variety of different skills and different classes is generally stronger than any build that focuses heavily on a few classes and a few skills. There's a number of ways to do this, but it doesnt look like the game is heading that direction. Spike teams, Spam teams ftw. :/

Niahmas · Aug 06, 2005, 08:07 PM // 20:07

wow... Koreans have some pretty dull capes

Deranged Imp · Aug 06, 2005, 08:39 PM // 20:39

I imagine that stems from the fact that they aren't guild teams.

Niahmas · Aug 06, 2005, 10:37 PM // 22:37

haha, oh man I deffinetly had a mind fart when I posted that.

yeeeeeah.