Curse

Ristaron · Apr 24, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

I feel that everyone (myself included) could always use help in advancing their writing skills. Writing is a major part of life, and is mandatory in today's world.

I won't bore you with grammar lessons, but I will explain to you the rules of different genres of writing.

This post is dedicated to Romantic Fiction (things like the roleplays that we do in this section) and I used 'Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses', by Mark Twain as a source of the rules governing it.

There are 19 rules governing this genre (22 according to some). They are simple and logical, but people still manage to forget them once in a while.

1. The story accomplishes something, and arrives somewhere.
In other words, something has to happen beyond some guy just walking down a road. Something has to happen, or it's not a story.
2. What happens in the different parts of the story should help develop the story.
In other words, you shouldn't have useless parts running rampant. If your story is about an Inuit living up North, there shouldn't be a meaningless chapter set in Florida revolving around a newlywed couple.
3. The characters must be alive.
No, this rule is not talking about being literally alive, nor characters being dead. This rule states that people shall have reactions to what happens around them, and not simply take everything without flinching.
4. Every character present will have a reason for it.
Useless characters are a waste of ink (or pixels, in the case of this section), and should not exist if they remain useless.
5. Conversation should be relevant, and must not continue when there is nothing of relevance left to say.
If your characters are planning an expedition, they shouldn't get on a two-page dialogue about what they had for supper last night.
6. A character described one way should not behave in another way.
If you introduce someone as a goody-two-shoes, they should not insult the city guard to the face of the guard captain just because his moustache is uneven.
7. A character who speaks in one manner should keep that manner.
Someone who starts their dialogue as an educated neo-medieval scribe should not finish their speech like a 21st century 'gangsta' from the streets of some upper-middle class neighbourhood.
8. Things we know to be false should not be described as truth in the narrative.
Don't state that the Earth is square like it's a fact!
9. The achievements and capabilities of mortal characters should be restrained to mortal achievements and capabilities alone. Miracles that are sought for must be presented in a plausible manner.
We have a word for the offense of this literary rule, godmoding. If your 16-year-old squire who can barely lift a sword manages to slay an army of a thousand armed barbarians all by himself through determination alone, there is a problem.
10. The story must beg the reader's interest, as well as making him love the good guys and hate the bad guys.
This rule does not need further explanation.
11. The characters must be well-enough defined that the reader knows to an extent what they would do in an emergency.
Also has no need of further explanation.

Those are the major rules, minor ones are as follows: (note, Mark Twain's wording of the rules, I will provide explanations for what he means.)

12. Say what he is proposing to say, not merely come near it.
Needs no explanation.
13. Use the right word, not its second cousin.
Needs no explanation.
14. Eschew surplusage.
Avoid giving more than what is needed (ex. 'Off of' is improper, as they are both prepositions - you're not supposed to use more than one where only one will suffice). This point also disdains overdescription or anything else that could cause your writing to be redundant.
15. Not omit necessary details.
Don't leave out things that make the story ultimately comprehendible.
16. Avoid slovenliness of form.
Don't be lazy in your writing (a major one: don't abbreviate unless there is reason to). Note: 'u 2' (as in 'you too') is criminal against this rule, and the next.
17. Use good grammar.
A given. See 16 as well.
18. Employ a simple and straightforward style.
Don't merely describe what you're talking about, state what it is so there's no mystery about what you just spent the last three sentences explaining.

More to come, and thanks to the creators of this website for providing Mark Twain's version of the rules for everyone.

For those of you who are interested, here is their main Mark Twain page.

Goats17 · Apr 25, 2006, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Thanks alot for this Ristaron. It will help me in the new launguage unit that I'm getting into at school. As well as my posts in the Rps on this site.

Lasareth · Apr 26, 2006, 12:05 AM // 00:05

If anyone has anything constructive to add to this thread, please do, otherwise please don't flame someone for trying to point out errors that may help enlighten some users here. Whether or not they're helpful to one person may be different than whether they are or not for another.

Keep it clean, and let's be a happy family.

teh_noob_pwner · May 06, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Thanks now ill get an A in language arts!!! HAHA

Minus Sign · May 06, 2006, 11:18 PM // 23:18

I've been sitting on this for a while now; hope you don't mind if I add a little to your OP. I'm aiming more toward the fanzines with this post.

Despite the monstrous typos I still manage to get in my posts, people still ask me advice about how to write well. They’ve asked me several times so far, so I’m going to throw this down once so I don’t have to type it again.

A lesson in 3 parts.
Part1: Readers are Lazy.

Today’s readers are lazy. They don't want to paint their own pictures. They don’t want to scroll through a dictionary every other paragraph and they don’t like it when you try to get them to memorize your story. It falls to the writer to insert those pictures into their mind, make them easy to understand and simple to remember. English is the tool we use in this forum. These stories can be short, simple pieces that the reader picks up once, smiles at and forgets forever. Or they can be mammoth stretches of yarn, complex puzzles that drive the reader to solve them before the characters do.

But one puzzle no reader will try to solve is “What word did the writer mean to use here?” You may even think “meh. They’ll figure it out.” If you do, you haven’t submitted much. I can tell you exactly what happens in a reader’s mind when you use the wrong words or misspell them with regularity.

Snap! Click! “The lights are on but nobodies home.” If more than two serious typos exist in a single sentence, or more than two major grammatical issues, then the reader’s brain—at least any part of it that would have read your work—breaks down and goes to sleep. The rest focuses on moving the mouse pointer to that little red “X” at the top right corner of the screen, closing the window on your piece and nary a touch of feedback.

Actually, that’s all the feedback most of us need. Silence from your readers speaks volumes. If no one can be bothered to reply about it, that probably means most people here couldn’t be bothered to read it through.

"But English is not my first language," you may say. "It’s very hard for me to write it and a minor triumph when I do." I say again "readers are lazy". Not only lazy, but unsympathetic to your efforts many times. No matter how well you see the pictures in your mind, if you cannot use English to put it on paper, it’s like a painter using mud instead of paint for them. The picture does not hold for them and they lose interest.

Broken English makes a broken story. I suggest you collaborate with a friend. Bring your story to them so they can talk you through, help you find the word you want. Preferably someone who is bi-lingual and fluent in both your native language and English. Sit down with a hard copy of your story written in your native tongue and have them show you the words you're not sure about.

Or maybe English isn’t a foreign language so much as it is a total mystery. You speak it well, but when it comes time to put pen to paper, something inside just fizzles and you’re left with a 3rd grade rendition of a plagiarized JRR Tolkien piece.

The one book no writer’s collection should be without: Strunk and White: The Elements of Style. No writer leaves home without it (or should). If writing has a Bible, that book is it. Read it. Memorize it. And when you think you know it all, read it again!

MWord is often your closest friend. As a mild dyslexic, I can’t tell you how many times spell-check has saved me from making an A into a 4. While the grammar assist on it can be a little punchy, overall it catches a lot. And even if the sentence is “correct” that green line can make you pause for just a few seconds, asking “could I have written that a little better?”

One more way for you to quickly improve your writing is to make a hard copy (that’s paper and ink) and read it out loud. I know, it’s a long story and you don't want to spend an entire afternoon re-reading it at such a slow speed when you can just scan it in a few minutes.

This is a trick the pros use: USE IT! Your own--real life--ear can pick up things that your eyes miss. If something doesn't sound quite right, it’s likely a reader will find confusion with it.

Another trick is to find someone before you submit or post your story and read it to them. This is called an IR or Ideal Reader. This is someone who wants to hear your story (your mom, your dad, a close friend who shares your interest).

IRs have a personal stake in your work. They want you to succeed because they like you and in general are not as lazy as the stock and trade reader who doesn't know anything about you. This may sound like manipulating people to read your stuff. That’s because it is. Writers can be a greedy, selfish bunch sometimes. The reward for hanging out with them is that they tell you some really cool shtick every now and again.

Have them read it or read it to them and watch their reactions. If they seem to lose focus, stop and ask them questions. Are they getting confused? Are they losing interest in the characters, is there too much exposition and not enough action?

Never take these criticisms personally! If you do, your IR is going to sugar coat their responses (because they love you) and that definitely won't help your work. Ask them to be honest. Heck, ask them to be BRUTAL! And if it looks like they're holding back something, tell them they're not helping you. Drag it out; if something’s bad you need to know so you can fix it. Here's an example I've used before:

No matter how much I love my car, wouldn't you tell me if there was an oil leak? I mean, without oil, this car I love very much would stop running; it would break down and die. This great car becomes junk because you know something I don’t and you let me keep driving it around, broken.

Please, IR, help me maintain my story like you would my car.

Part 2: Accepting Criticism with Style

I know. When you write a story it’s a part of you (and my car isn't???) but you can't take criticism to heart. If it ever gets printed, someone is going to like it...and someone is going to use it for toilet paper. Two of the most deadly traps for a writer can be found here. The search for endless praise can become an addiction; you stop writing more great prose in your hunger for more assurance. And when that assurance stops (and it will, readers are lazy, remember?) you flounder, uncertain what you will do next to regain those 15 minutes of fame.

The other side of the coin is taking negative criticism too seriously. You either have a break down, the standard “I SUXZORZ!” meltdown that knocks you straight into a depressed writer’s block or (potentially worse) you start focusing on giving everyone what they want.

Lesson here: you can’t make everyone happy all the time. Trying to will only drive you crazy a little faster than usual. Write the story you want people to hear. That’s why you started writing in the first place, right? To tell people a story. So put that story down, and listen to those criticisms. Accept the good ones and keep walking. Listen to the bad and file them away. Remember what people like, and take note of what people don’t. But in the end: screw em! This is your story, remember? If they want to read it, goodo. If not, tell them another.

Part 3: My Idea, Your Idea.

The word you’re searching for is plagiarism. Anet is very nice not to sue our brains out for stealing their world and making fanzines with their characters. Most of us respond in kind. We don’t place their characters into unnatural roles (Mhenlo has yet to become a female elementalist) or paint them in a poor light (Denova doesn’t strip tease around here and sleep with everything in sight). If they did, Anet would probably blow more than a few fuses, insist the piece be taken down if they didn’t bash you with their lawyer’s briefcase several times first.

Same goes for other writers. While we dip from the same well, it’s not nice (or particularly smart) to grab someone else’s hard work and pawn it off as your own. Not only do you lose OODLES of respect when you’re found out, banned from the site, and watch your post get flamed into nooblivion, you can also find legal action placed against you.

There are many sites that require you to relinquish copyright of anything you post on them. Guild Wars Guru is one of those beautiful gems that doesn’t. Grabbing a character from someone else’s story, no matter how innocent it may seem to you, can be a huge no no. You can’t be sure that character isn’t registered under copyright law to that person. And you can’t be sure they don’t have lunch with lawyer friends at the local TGIF.

Copyright rules for Fanzine characters are more loose than most other forms of story telling, but they do exist. Don’t grab another poster’s character and start portraying them in your story without their permission. Not only is it just not cool, you can get into trouble.

Cjlr · May 06, 2006, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Seems to me like anyone who's relatively well-read would subliminally or even consciously be aware of all of them. That said, it can't possibly hurt to be sure people know the basics

.

Ristaron · May 08, 2006, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Part 3 is something that always annoys me when someone goes against it.
When a cannon character is used by someone as their main character, it's not only stealing ideas, it's unoriginal.
The world itself, while the intellectual property of ANet, is large enough and vastly undefined. This gives a great setting with undeniable guidelines (the White Mantle are not fishermen, they are fanatics; the Orrian peninsula sank in 1070 AE; etc) which we can use to our advantage (simply because the guidelines are already known, you don't have to explain everything).

There are countless roleplaying sites across the entire internet, very few of them boast a unique world to roleplay in. While you can take for granted most of the time that people will not mind if you borrow aspects of their creation for an innocent roleplay, it is important to remember that (just like Minus Sign warns) intellectual property is just as copyright as the game you're basing your story on.

EndoftheSyringe · May 08, 2006, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

10. The story must beg the reader's interest, as well as making him love the good guys and hate the bad guys.
This rule does not need further explanation.

I think rather than what this plainly says, it should be more along the lines of having the reader hate who you want them to hate and love who you want them to love. Having the reader hate the main character in such a way that it keeps them reading is a sign of good writing. Not like I am reccomending you actually do this, it's just an example.

Naqser · May 08, 2006, 02:34 PM // 14:34

about number 2, if the writer wants them to meet sometime and get some background on them both, read the 3 Halo books, Fall of reach, The Flood and First strike, mainly in The Flood the writer didn't just concentrate on masterchief, but several Elites, a grunt, what happened to Captain Keyes, some ODSTs (think it was Orbital Drop Shock Trooper) taking and defending a base, salvaging the Pillar of Autumn and a marine getting infected by the flood. Many of these didn't meet, many of them died even before the first 100 pages. Conclusion, as long as it drives the story forward, gives the reader several viewpoints and other information that is interesting, then it's ok by me.

Matix411 · May 08, 2006, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by EndoftheSyringe

I think rather than what this plainly says, it should be more along the lines of having the reader hate who you want them to hate and love who you want them to love. Having the reader hate the main character in such a way that it keeps them reading is a sign of good writing. Not like I am reccomending you actually do this, it's just an example.

I agree.
I think that every reader should be able to choose which characters they love, and which they hate.
I for one have become strangely attracted to the villains in the current novels I'm reading. I love the fact that they are so dark and cruel but at the same time charming and humerous, even light-hearted at times.
It's a contrast, because at the current time in the novel, the good guys have lost their humor, and are either struggling to keep their hopes up, or have lost all hope and have thus become drab and depressed.

Also, I disagree with point seven (to an extent):
"7. A character who speaks in one manner should keep that manner."

I find that in many novels, the main character may start out thinking they are the 'be all, end all', but later experience some sort of epiphany or dramatic event which otherwise renders their sense of mannerism different (if that makes sense).

For example, a rich and spoiled princess is captured by a band of 'rutheless' thieving pirates, who in actual fact happen to be the good guys. Throughout the story and the events that this princess experiences with these pirates, she begins to 'adapt' and grow attached to them. Thus, she may start out extremely proper at the beginning of the novel, and by the end may have completely loosened her tounge. In other words, she goes from Pretty in Pink to Ex-Landlubber Sea Hippy.
Over-exaggerated, but I think it proves my point (or so I hope).

Still, I agree in a sense, for in much literature this point is true.

There are however exceptions, but then again I think there always will be, so if you are only speaking in general than this reply can be rendered useless, or at least pointless ..

Great post though, very helpful.

Minus Sign · May 09, 2006, 01:48 AM // 01:48

In a recent work of my own my IR stated that her favorite character was, in fact, the "villian". She found him--a wife abusing, power hungry manipulator--to be the person that she most connected to.

My reply was simple: I don't believe in villians. Not really. Everyone believes that what they are doing is the right thing. It's these various points of view coming into conflict that make peoples clash and create conflict in life. The "I'm right and you're wrong" complex that polarizes countries to war, makes friends enemies and turns good men to do things that make them puke when its done. In such a world, villians are anyone who doesn't share your view or is so overzealous (the "If God be for us, then anyone against us must walk with the Devil") in their stance that they lose sight of humanity.

But at the end of the day, everyone believes, for the most part, that they are doing the right thing. They spend more than a little bit of their own lives convincing themselves and others of this fact. Even the zealouts who lean more toward ends justifying means so "the cost" be damned. And in taking that time to convince themselves, its quite possible that they can end up convincing others. like you Readers.

I love my characters. That may sound corny, but I do. And though its often my job as a writer to put these people I care about into situations that hurt them, I tell their story true.

I would also like to take a moment to thank Ristaron. Its not often that I find myself doing any soul searching before I post in a forum. And a note of caution. My own viewpoint about villians is not something you'd see strongly in, say, Robert Jordan's work. My point in this post was to show that love and hate are a matter of person to person; you can't be sure who will connect with who, so its best if you--the writer--try to connect with them all.

Matix411 · May 09, 2006, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Well put.

If you're gonna tell it, tell it like it is.
That's what I think.
So in regards to your characters and the 'love' you share for them, I can totally understand that.
There's no sense writing about a character that you're not connected to in any way, else there is no emotion put into the words about them; leaving the result a simple and flat image of something that could be a masterpiece.

Masterpiece may be an overexaggeration, I tend to do that a lot, but with characters I create (and I'm just bearing witness to my 'writer's side' of things), I try to create them as perfectly as I feel I can. If I'm not into the character, I scrap them unless I think I can turn around their personality and what not.

I've had big plans on writing my first novel for a while, and I'm so stumped it's not even funny. I have the general idea, I've spent hours upon hours researching Norse and Celt mythology to give depth in terms of the characters (I love mythology/fantasy etc.).
So, naturally, and like most art I do (typically drawing and animation), I try to create characters that I can A, relate to; B, have a strong mental connection with (in other words, they act as I think so as to produce a sense of 'flow' in the writing, I don't like to pause constantly trying to think of what the character will do next, I want to feel it, so it just goes on the paper or screen naturally).

I think my problem is I spend so much time devoting myself to character creation that I forget the rest of the atmosphere. I tend to forget settings, and more often then not, I create a character's background that ultimately causes me to change the plotline again, and again.

So at the moment, I've got this massive list of character's I'm so eager to put on paper and experience the story with, but I've no idea where to start, or how to describe everything as 'perfectly' as I want (knowing full well that nothing is perfect).

In regards to villains ... I've got a load of heroes for the story, but I'm still working on separating that list into good/bad. It appears to me that each character has their nasty side as well as their heroic side, and so I'm at a loss as to who should be lead hero, who should be lead villain, and who should be all the important little minions in-between.

Great fun trying to think up everything for characters though ... and I know a lot of writers say they never plan ANYTHING, they just write and it all comes as it should. I'm afraid of trying this, because, with art, I tend to hit a huge blockade when it comes to not planning something properly, and that blockade can last quite a while.
With this story however, I don't want that. I want to get so involved that I can't put it down, like I was reading someone else's work. But, again, I have to get started in order to do that, and I can see now why people may not plan so in-depth at first, because you get so sidetracked on mapping out everything, that you forget to leave behind that trail of cookies to find your way back.

EndoftheSyringe · May 09, 2006, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Haha, I mostly write horror, with a little bit of steampunk and some fantasy. Maybe I'll post some stuff if I get around to it. You guys are inspiring.

Matix411 · May 10, 2006, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Ah, I love horror.
Any kind as long as it's good, doesn't necessarily have to be 'scary', I love it either way.
FILM is a whole different story though ... it's a pity when good novels, horror or not, are transferred to film and thus destroyed in terms of value in every sensual way ...

Post some stuff, dooo itt.

ender6 · May 10, 2006, 08:37 PM // 20:37

@Ristaron, I was pleasently surprised to see a guide to writing posted on a Gaming forum, and for your efforts I offer my congrats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

10. The story must beg the reader's interest, as well as making him love the good guys and hate the bad guys.

The above point is completly incorrect. I don't think I need to offer you countless counter examples, perhaps you wrote this point in haste.

@Minus Sign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

Today’s readers are lazy. They don't want to paint their own pictures. They don’t want to scroll through a dictionary every other paragraph and they don’t like it when you try to get them to memorize your story. It falls to the writer to insert those pictures into their mind, make them easy to understand and simple to remember. English is the tool we use in this forum. These stories can be short, simple pieces that the reader picks up once, smiles at and forgets forever. Or they can be mammoth stretches of yarn, complex puzzles that drive the reader to solve them before the characters do.

I find this statement to be very dangerous for a couple of reasons. Firstly, don't dictate how one should write based on your considerations of the laymen. Most writers write for the personal satisfaction of writing. Do you think James Joyce wrote Ulysses with the masses in mind? You're boderline telling people how to stylize their writing after some lumpen cookie cutter recipe. BLEH! That goes against what it is to write! Secondly, writers possess different strengths, some would certainly benefit from following your advice, while others would find the task to be unsufferable, and would eventually give up writing all together. I think the best advice that can be offered when it comes to "painting pictures" is do a lot of reading, and find out what works for other writers. Eventaually, you will come to discover what works best for you as a writer.

Leaving this on a positive note, I thought what you both did to be quite a contribution to the boards and I comend you both for your efforts.

PS If imagery is your game try, The Painted Bird, by Jerzey Kosinski.

Minus Sign · May 11, 2006, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender6

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

10. The story must beg the reader's interest, as well as making him love the good guys and hate the bad guys.

The above point is completely incorrect. I don't think I need to offer you countless counter examples, perhaps you wrote this point in haste.

It is not completely incorrect. It is not a hard and fast rule, but it is not incorrect. There are many examples where the quoted statement is a boon (I submit the majority of Robert Jordan’s Shiatan, JRR Tolkien's Sauron, and others if you wish). Yes; examples can be listed where it is not the case (I am one in much of my work) but many people follow this “good versus evil” formula in their work, especially in fantasy. A story should “beg a reader’s interest” else, why tell it in the first place? If they aren’t interested, they aren’t listening to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender6

You're borderline telling people how to stylize their writing after some lumpen cookie cutter recipe. BLEH!

You’re reading what you want to here. If you scroll down past the first two paragraphs of my post, you will notice that I use this particular statement mostly as a means to combat poor grammar. You may choose to believe that I am making a stylization suggestion. I never mention writing style. Grammar is the “lumen cookie cutter rule” by which good writers live by. Misused words are a trap; misspellings a death of a thousand cuts. You can get away with speaking phonetically in dialogue, but not in narrative (with exceptions as well, of course. I submit Huckleberry Finn, a first person narrative). You can never be taken seriously when you don't even know how to spell "persue".

Every writer has their own style and I would never question a person’s methods of putting words to paper unless that style is obviously not working for them. My post was about editing and adding tools to a person’s toolbox. Yes, editing is tedious and rather mind-numbing at times; it’s the main reason why there are so few people in the world who can actually make a living in the craft. Any idiot can put words on a page. It takes talent and training (self-taught, mentor or schooling) to make those words into a coherent piece of prose that other people will want to read.

Tools (like my mentioned Ideal Reader) are a valuable thing for a writer to have. Your toolbox can never be too full. Even if you don’t use all of them, it’s a good idea to know how to use as many as you can. On that issue I submit you this: people do not exist in a vacuum. You can read your work and nod in self accomplishment all day long (and so can I) but if you do not release that story sometime--let someone else hear it--then it is naught but a funny dream you had one day, dying with you as sleep enfolds again.

As an aside ender6, it may surprise you to know that Orosn Scott Card's wife is his IR.The Hugo Award winner stated as much in How to Write Science Fiction & Fantasy back in 1990, and it is from this primer that I got the idea originally.

And yes, “Readers are lazy” is an extremely dangerous statement. The truest statements often are. Attention spans have been cut short by television and radio; internet 3-paragraph blogs and the like further cutting the art of story telling down as people seek out the fastest way to get their entertainment fix. I also use that statement as a warning of a potential pitfall to writers; that using writing as a means to seek the spotlight is a weak perch at best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasareth

If anyone has anything constructive to add to this thread, please do, otherwise please don't flame someone for trying to point out errors that may help enlighten some users here. Whether or not they're helpful to one person may be different than whether they are or not for another.

I re-submit this for your consideration ender6. In talking about writing and in the act of writing in general, this is perhaps one of the only “hard and fast” rules to live by. What works for you may not work for me, and vica cersa. But saying "its wrong" when talking about anything other than grammar in writing is a short road to a flame war.

Though you do so in a discourteous manner via your choice of quotations and the erroneous interpretations thereof, the rest of your post has merit however. When considering style, it is certainly important for you to seek out like minded artists and watch what they do and how they do it. For that matter, seek out writing styles you may not like; look at how they write and the parts you disapprove of so you may better know why you don’t like one of your own paragraphs.

PS: please excuse my edits of your post ender6; I assume you intended to write “lumen” as in vacuous. The only “Lumpen” I am familiar with is Lumpen Magazine. If I misquoted, please correct.

ender6 · May 11, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

@Minus Sign:

I never said that an author can't choose to have the reader love the good guys and hate the bad guys, but point 10 is very clear in telling the reader that is what he must do. I don't require a list of examples that champion this notion. That certainly wasn't my objection or anyone elses. If you seem confused by this fact I advise you to read point 10 several more times.

"Making him love the good guys and hate the bad guys."

Example to why this statement fails a simple logic 101 class (not to mention common sense):
After reading Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde, I had sympathized with Mr Hyde and felt if anything he was misunderstood. Oh wait, I guess Stevenson messed up because he didn't follow rule 10.

Once again, I don't feel the need to list the countless counters to this notion.

**And if you are playing obtuse here, I will state for the record, yes there are many books where the reader will love the good guys and hate the bad guys (that's a given). <<closed>>

"Today's readers are lazy. They don't want to paint their own pictures."

I realize that you eventually go into other facets regarding grammar and spelling, but that sentence is a stand alone to me. If you think I somehow misread it, I can only say, I am sorry. Sorta ironic though considering you seemed bent on the importance of clarity. But, let me guess, I am the lazy reader here? LOL. Which brings me to your very own Point II. I think you should simply accept my criticism for what it is. You think I am being hypercritical, or perhaps lazy as a reader, so be it, but I certainly took the time to read this thread to its entirety, perhaps you should take a moment and consider my obections. If your intent was to tie grammar and spelling in with the readers inability to paint a picture you might want to reword the entire paragraph. My first suggestion, get rid of lazy reader and start with: "The downfalls of being a lazy writer..." Since in this case you are claiming that inaccurate writing is the cause for one's inability to paint a picture. You can't have it both ways. I recommend you figure out what you are trying to express and then do an EDIT.

As for a "flame war" ROFLMAO.

My criticism was constructive and I believe necessary considering as I stated, what you were implying is a very dangerous thing. Once again as to not offend you, if I somehow misinterpted your thoughts and ideas I apologize.

FYI
lum·pen ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lmpn, lm-)
adj.
Vulgar or common

PS: Since you seem to have some knowledge of Orson Scott Card, Have you read "Speaker of the Dead"? Now talk about the bad guy doing a 180 for the reader.

Minus Sign · May 12, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

I disagree with your interpretation of Speaker of the Dead as well. The Pequeninos versus Humanity issue in Speaker of the dead had no evil save ignorance. It was interspecies/interplanetary miscommunication and "red tape" that killed in that story. These are the evils Card combats. His characters are, however, a prime example of people doing what they think is right and clashing with one another because of personal morality and alliances.
(***INCOMING SPOILER***)
A better example from the Ender series would be the Buggers in the first novel. Once we actually get the chance to communicate with them we learn that their war was little more than a handshake from their PoV. I think he states the case best (and I paraphrase):
How do they do it?
How do who do what?
Humans. They always start out the inocent, they the "attacked". But in the end, they are always the most attrocious in their actions.
But by the time he makes that statement, readers are already well aware who (or rather, "what") are the real enemies.

If you liked Ender's Game, might I suggest you also read Randevous with Ramma by Arthur C. Clark. On a whole, I found that series far the better in comparison to his Odessy series.

As for the rest, I will edit lumpen to its original in my quote. Thank you; I learned a new word today. But that is the only change I will make. You've made your points and I've made mine.