Curse

greyf0x_f0x · Jun 03, 2007, 01:02 PM // 13:02

The problem of people "camping" art threads for commissions has recently been raised, and I think it's about time somthing was done! :P

Firstly, I'd just like to say that running a commission thread is commendable thing to do, it means that artists are rewarded for their efforts, with recognition, exposure and of course, cash. However, it has got to the point recently where every single art thread posted, is "zerg rushed" by ravenous art lovers hungry for personal commissions. Most recently of all, this has reached new extremes, where people will be posting in art threads with little more than "baggsie my commission (if you are doing them). As an artist, there is a very simple way to stop this behavior, and one which will not only make your life easier, but also more productive

Just say no to commission queues!

That's right, completely disregard the time at which someone has posted a request for a commission. So what if they posted first, does that mean they want the commission more than the person who posted second, does it mean their picture will be more fun to work on? Of course not, they were simply lucky enough to get in their before anyone else.

I speak from experience, when I say that a far more interesting approach, is to get an idea of what kind of picture a person wants and then see if that meets with your requirements as an artist. It may be that you have drawn 5 female necros, and you want to draw somthing else for a change, so why not simply take a male ranger commission. Or perhaps you are short on cash, and someone is offering a hefty bonus if you take on their commission. We're in an artists market here, you can afford to be choosey!

Now this may all sound rather selfish, and in favor of the artists, as opposed to the commissioning customers, and it is. However, artists who are working on subjects that engage them will produce FAR better results, they will also enjoy themselves more, and be less likely to suffer from "commission burn out" as many, many artists here on guru do.

Also, this would make the people looking to get commissions spend a little more time and thought on what they want from their commissions, and that can only be a good thing. After all, a character is more than a head plus armour and weapon combo, though saddly, I think some people don't realise that.

So in summary: Say no to commission queues! It will lead to better work by artists, and in the long term, happier commissionees!

kenichiukiya · Jun 03, 2007, 01:09 PM // 13:09

I 100% agree to that. One thing I would say to all the commissioners (including myself): Just take your own sweet time doing whatever commission you feel like doing at that moment. I will try to adapt the method suggested by grey after i finish my current waiting list (provided there's anyone else interested in my ugly work =P)

Note to self: don't camp new commissioner threads anymore.

Shanaeri Rynale · Jun 03, 2007, 01:10 PM // 13:10

I kinda agree GF, it puts pressure on everyone. Pressure on the artist to do plough on regardless, and pressure on the comissioner to expect updates.

I don't think it's selfish at all. I would rather have a No Shan I don't think your comission is my style. than be on a queue for ages and then the artist loses interest.

So yup, no to comission queues. Starting after all mine are done - ROFL.

Sectus · Jun 03, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Yeah, it sounds like a good idea. I'd also encourage artists to explain what kind of commission requests they prefer working on (whether it's commissions with a specific theme, or amount of details/ideas the artist thinks should be supplied by the commissioneer), that should hopefully make it easier for both the artist and client to be satisfied with the work.

And yeah, I'm using Echo what what Shan said. They should finish their current commission queues before starting to use a new system

(well, unless their queue has become so gigantic it would take months to finish it)

Mistical miss · Jun 03, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

I've seen people placing flags a lot recently, though I think its a clear way of showing you like the art, it may indeed pressure the artist. However, some artists seem to be ok with that. I prefer doing it the way greyfox does, but I think all artists are different on that.

So in short: Have all artists do what they like best

Messy · Jun 03, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

@ GreyFox- I have the utmost respect for your talent and the manner in which you run your commission thread. You have explained very clearly how you want things done.

I also respectfully disagree with your opinion regarding what you think other artists should do. The reason is sort of an assumption that they are not capable of saying no, of deciding what is it they want and how they want to do it. Their needs might not be like yours. To generalize and request that others do like you do, or like you feel it should be done is... I can't think of the word.

I look at these threads on a daily basis, and what I see is artists that are capable enough of making their own decisions. Some of them clearly state that they are not taking commissions. That might not stop people from camping and hoping to get some art from them, but that's all that is, we HOPE, we recognize the fact that we like the artists talent enough to be willing to make some type of exchange, in most cases GW gold. The fact that we camp does not force anybody to do anything.

Some artists *skip* campees, they just felt like drawing something else, and that's perfectly ok with me. They state they will draw as they feel like it.

Some artists have a limit they will put on the virtual waiting line so that they don't feel like they have a huge commitment that they can't fulfill. That's perfectly ok.

Some artists take a break because real life kicks in. That's something I believe nobody has ever complained about. One thing most art seekers have is patience and understanding. The last thing I want is to burn out or rush anybody.

Some artists that are not taking commissions and have people camping, all of a sudden open their commissions and set the start cue on that last post where they say they now take 5 commissions, first 5 posters.

I just think to generalize how you feel it should be, because it works for you, is wrong. I post here under the impression that every single artist is perfectly capable of setting their own rules, their own limits, and how they want to do things.

I'll tell you what I have a HUGE problem with, is people undervaluing artists, not realizing it takes time to draw, and complaining about prices, or whining that they are too poor, or not keeping their side of the agreement. I have a huge problem with new artists that don't know what to charge, and offer to draw for free and people hover all over them because they want a freebie, instead of advising the new artist that they can make gold and buy in game things they might want. That their time and their talent is worth a lot more than FREE.

So unless an artist requests that people don't camp or place virtual flags on their threads, I will continue to do so. It is MY way of saying :"I think you are very talented, I LOVE your work enough that I am willing to PAY for it, and I hope that one day I can have a small token of your talent".

Jeff Highwind · Jun 03, 2007, 03:22 PM // 15:22

I agree wholeheartedly with grey, despite being guilty of this myslef. Flagging artists would be like going to the front of a line in mcdonalds to say "oh I'd like to order somthing later."

Messy · Jun 03, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Highwind

Flagging artists would be like going to the front of a line in mcdonalds to say "oh I'd like to order somthing later."

actually I think what it means is..." Oh I love your food, you are not open, but I'm just going to wait here until you do because your Big Mac is delicious, and when you open I will place an order with a diet coke and french fries"

Kayleen Ajzurion · Jun 03, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

I understand and agree somewhat with Greyfox on the matter, but might I ask what is flagging/camping? I have a vague idea but I'm not 100% sure

Thanks in advance ^^

Kay

StarrTheInsane · Jun 03, 2007, 03:58 PM // 15:58

I don't really mind it. I like knowing that I'll have something new to work on for a while. I'm still learning and tweaking my style, so I tend to like going in order and not just skipping over people because I don't have much info. It helps me out by offering a challenge that can improve my work. Sometimes there are screenshots that don't show much detail, so as an artist I make the decision to either make something up or do some research, and that's a learning experience. When I get a picture of a character, even if it is in great detail, and there is no description or hints to what objects might belong with that character, I make the decision based on only vague impressions what things to use to fill out the person. That's also a challenge. But it's a good challenge.
I truly to appreciate Mistical miss stopping by to comment on all my work. Sometimes a bit Simon Cowell, but never wrong. At least she gives me the criticism in manageable bits instead of tearing apart my entire technique. Each time I have a little bit more to watch out for on the next and each time I learn something new (rather than having to sit down and reevaluate my whole style).

I really keep a list as more of an assurance. To myself and to the buyers. It says, "Yes, I have heard your request and I intend to do something about it, so make preparations."

I'm probably the poorest($) player in my guild. I love the game, but I go for very long periods of time having at most 5k on me. I don't farm, I don't run, I don't do anything to make much more money than I get from doing missions and quests or making my usual rounds. I can't afford my own work

But that's another thing I want to be able to do as an artist. I want to encourage less wealthy players who truly love their characters and have taken the time to develop stories and personalities to get a portrait of their wonderful digital person that they can be equally proud of.

In the future I'll probably divide my work into a higher priced style like the work I do now and a more affordable sketch work, but I also keep a list for the people who were interested in the original deal so they know I'm not going to demand something else on short notice.

I do think my current first 5 is a strange number...but so far I haven't seen any requests that I don't eventually want to get to. As quick as I work, I won't cut my list down shorter than 3 just so people can be ready, but because of your request, I probably will shorten it. The people I already have listed are safe from any new deals.

Rainbird · Jun 03, 2007, 04:26 PM // 16:26

I just had to make it

I think that artists here are perfectly capable of making a decision of how they want to do it, but GF definetly has some valid points. I'll just echo myself from the thread where it all started.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainbird

I think that the best thing a person can do if they are interested to find out if an artist does commissions or not is as simple as this:
Ask if he/she does commissions, then the artist can say yes/no, and once it is completely clear that the artist is doing commissions, then people can get in line or whatever the artist decides should be done.
The whole camp/flag system is a pain in the ass, because even if the artist hasn't said yes to do commissions you might still end up number 7 in the line even though you are the first person to see the response.
But if you want an honest chance of getting in front of the line you need to a) be really lucky and see a thread that says "Doing commissions", and be the first to respond in it, or b) plant your flag before everyone else in a thread where you have no idea whether commissions are being taken or not.

Basically, what my suggestion to fix the problem is, is to somehow make the flag-system unused, or make it useless. Artists could say: "I'm not taking commissions from people who just flag. Once I say I'll take commissions, I'll do the requests as they come" just for an example.

greyf0x_f0x · Jun 03, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

@Dont Mess WithMe:
I too, work under the assumption that artists will work as the see fit, and in the manner they think will suit them best. I actually also agree with you, in that a flood of commission requests in a thread is more flattery than anything else.

Above all, the reason for this post, was just to was to get artists thinking about different ways they could run commissions.

Quote:

The reason is sort of an assumption that they are not capable of saying no, of deciding what is it they want and how they want to do it

That is exactly my assumption, I think a lot of newer artists see the flood of commissions, and just start at the start, and work onwards. It seems a logical thing to do after all, and if you are starting out and looking to draw anything, for anyone, it's not such a bad way of doing it. However, I do believe that a lot of the time, newer arts will not have the confidence to just say no, they will take the list as it stands, and work through it from start to finish.

I just hope people see there are other ways of doing things - my method may not be to everyone's tastes, and I don't propose everyone works as I do. I suppose really all I'm saying, is that artists shouldn't feel they have to run their commissions on a linear commission line basis, unless of course, they feel that will bring out the best in their work. Personally, I don't feel it does. Hence my oppinionated original post ^_^

So perhaps to make this thread less of a personal rant, and of more use to the art community, how about artists and commissioners put their heads together and come up with some interesting concepts for running a commission system.

Critera, waiting times, themes, numbers of people, community polls, art trades, seperate threads for posts, personal pages for commission display...

That's just a few things off the top of my head, but how could we all work together to make life better for the creators and consumers of art?

Foxeye · Jun 03, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

While many artists are comfortable saying no, I know many artists are also afraid to "please themselves". So while I don't think everyone should necessarily do as Greyfox suggests, I'm glad he did suggest it so that the ones most likely to burn out trying to please others will realize that they will have support if they adopt a different approach. It's very easy to think "if I say no, all the people who love my art will turn their back on me!".

Personally, I reeeally like the way you do it Greyfox. If I were to do commissions, that would be my approach as well.

Perynne · Jun 03, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

GreyFox, you really do have a good point. I've noticed a lot of this happening around here (and also know this from experience in other places too). It would be nice to change the system a little, to something that allows everyone who wants a commission an equal chance of getting it, but also giving the artists freedom to choose how they work. It's always kind of sad seeing a talented artist have a burnout because they take on too much. And I know what I'm talking about... just had burnout last autumn from overwork and school, which kept me from drawing anything except compulsory work for nearly six months. It was awful.

I quite like my own system here though.... I have a waiting line, and then pick three people at a time who I promise to do commissions for. The other people can wait, knowing that I will let them know when I'm available again. Still, I wish there was some way to arrange my waiting line a bit too... it feels bad to put people on the waiting line and not knowing if I ever have time to do all of them.

I'm all open for suggestions on how to organize commissions better.

I kind of liked the way you do it now, where you ask people to write about their characters and then you pick whoever inspires you the best. That kind of system would definitely be something that would also work for me, if I ever started taking more detailed commissions. It would really let us artists see who really loves their character and is willing to put a little effort into seeing them drawn.

Morag D · Jun 03, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

personally, I don't have a problem with people flagging my thread

I mean, every artist should do what he or she likes / can get along with best. plus, not everybody has a reputation as you have, meaning there are people who want to work their way up to the top by dealing with every customer who'd like a picture and not only those that appeal to the artist - and I don't think this is a bad thing. I've had 5 rangers out of 7 commissions, and I don't even very much like rangers. but that doesn't matter. for me, it's a chance to improve, and although I'd prefer female casters to male rangers/warriors, I do what people like me to - first, because it forces me to draw stuff I normally wouldn't do (and thus practice), second, because I like challenges. Third and most important: Doing whatever a customer wants you to is as much an approach to art as doing what you want to do. Commissions is work, meaning I get paid so I don't have to farm - plus I prefer drawing to farming

for my ultivmate individual artistic fulfillment I don't charge

everyone to his liking, I always say.

Mistical miss · Jun 03, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

I mainly draw whoever I like whenever I like :P (thats mostly because my thread isn't that much of a commission thread :P) Sometimes people kindly request, and sometimes I feel like doing that

... apart from that, Art trades ftw!, I like doing art trades :P so they have priority.

Messy · Jun 03, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by greyf0x_f0x

@Dont Mess WithMe:
I too, work under the assumption that artists will work as the see fit, and in the manner they think will suit them best. I actually also agree with you, in that a flood of commission requests in a thread is more flattery than anything else.

Above all, the reason for this post, was just to was to get artists thinking about different ways they could run commissions.

That is exactly my assumption, I think a lot of newer artists see the flood of commissions, and just start at the start, and work onwards. It seems a logical thing to do after all, and if you are starting out and looking to draw anything, for anyone, it's not such a bad way of doing it. However, I do believe that a lot of the time, newer arts will not have the confidence to just say no, they will take the list as it stands, and work through it from start to finish.

I just hope people see there are other ways of doing things - my method may not be to everyone's tastes, and I don't propose everyone works as I do. I suppose really all I'm saying, is that artists shouldn't feel they have to run their commissions on a linear commission line basis, unless of course, they feel that will bring out the best in their work. Personally, I don't feel it does. Hence my oppinionated original post ^_^

So perhaps to make this thread less of a personal rant, and of more use to the art community, how about artists and commissioners put their heads together and come up with some interesting concepts for running a commission system.

Critera, waiting times, themes, numbers of people, community polls, art trades, seperate threads for posts, personal pages for commission display...

That's just a few things off the top of my head, but how could we all work together to make life better for the creators and consumers of art?

/SIGNED 100%

Nothing wrong with being opinionated, at least I hope, 'cause I know I am. *coughs*.

Believe me, I too worry that new artists will not have the confidence to ask for a fair price, and I more than often have expressed that concern in their threads... DON'T LOWBALL YOURSELF!!. You are talented, people are complimenting your art. Some artists, that are extremely talented, *coughs-ravensong-coughs* charge a measly 10k for a piece, and although I want to shake him, all *I* can do is make sure that when I pay him, I go well beyond what he requested. Food for thought maybe? If you know that an artist might be asking a low price out of lack of confidence, fear they might be asking for too much... instead of jumping on the *bargain* pay them a fair price.

Maybe after we get some good ideas down, new artists will see the different choices they have as to how to run their threads. I will still though, assume, they are capable to say NO, NO thanks, NO sorry, can't do.

After reading this thread, and another one with a new artist, for a very short while I sort of felt the flames below me, BUT I know how I have treated artists, I know how much I have payed, and I am quite comfortable with it.

Some say I get to plant my flag first all the time, lol, I wish. I think I managed first once or twice, I may be sitting on a lot of threads, where I am patiently waiting and hoping to make it on the list sometime. If it happens, excellent, if it doesn't that's fine too, I will simply enjoy looking at their work. I will continue to farm, sell, and save so I can pay a fair price for a little token from all the very talented people out there.

tommarrow · Jun 03, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

I can see a valid point to not wanting the artist to burn out or for them not to enjoy doing their drawings. What I would not like to see is from a list of (example) 100 people the artist just goes through the list and picks out either the commissions he/she likes best or the ones that are offering to pay twice the price just to move to the front.

What if you went to your local hardware store just to buy a hammer and the 99 people behind you were buying cabinets to remodel their kitchen. Would it be right for the store to have you stand to the side and wait because the people behind you were buying more stuff worth more money?

I feel the best way to work commissions is for the artist to say in his/her first posting whether they are just posting for critique or if they are opening for commissions.
They could limit the commissions to guarantee only the first person or first 3 people will get their drawing done.

As far as pricing goes I have seen great drawings priced at 10k and very simple sketches priced at 40k. It is up to the artist to price their work but you have to find that middle ground. Charge too much you lose customers, charge too little you get overwhelmed. This is why I like the ones that offer levels of service. 10k for a sketch, 30k for a B&W, 50k for color and so on. The way I believe is the worst to run your prices is to just ask for tips, this will just lead to you being under paid.

Though the way you run your thread is your choice I do not feel I should have to put on a song and dance number just to get the artist to notice me above the rest.

StarrTheInsane · Jun 03, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

I've had a follow-up idea from my post; I was thinking of ways to charge realistic prices, and still make it so that poorer folks still have a shot at something cool for a character they really like. It's not to simplify the work, but instead to occasionally hold a sort of reverse contest. Instead of having a buyer post a contest for ZOMGold (but in return ensuring LOTS of instant artwork), the artist would hold a contest asking people to prove how much their character means to them and the winner gets his/her picture done.

That way artists who get scolded for not asking enough can feel better about offering affordable options to those who really need/deserve it.

greyf0x_f0x · Jun 03, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommarrow

...What I would not like to see is from a list of (example) 100 people the artist just goes through the list and picks out either the commissions he/she likes best or the ones that are offering to pay twice the price just to move to the front

You see, that's where we differ :P That's exactly what I'd like to see. Going by the linear queue system, you are basically asking artists to work on images that they won't enjoy as much, simply because 10 art thread campers have rampaged out of their tents and mobbed them. Imagine if you will, that a new artist starts a commission thread, I can guarentee that within the day, at least 5-10 people will have replied to it requesting a commission. Is it fair to make people who browse the forums less frequently wait for probably weeks/months? As it stands, the current climate means that unless you reply within the first day of a commission post starting up - a few days tops, you probably wont get a commission at all, because by the time the artist has worked through the zerg rushers, they will have burnt themselves out.

Quote:

What if you went to your local hardware store just to buy a hammer and the 99 people behind you were buying cabinets to remodel their kitchen. Would it be right for the store to have you stand to the side and wait because the people behind you were buying more stuff worth more money?

What if you went to an auction and tryed to buy a car, and someone else outbid you. Would it be fair that the second person not get their vehicle, simply because you raised your hand first?

I think it is perfectly acceptable for an artist to work for the highest bidder. I think it's the artists decision whether or not they want to work purely for the money, or for some other artistic goal. It's for that reason, that I like it when commissioners offer a detailed background and "pitch" on their characters, because it gives the artist somthing to work with, some basic criteria they can use to select commisions, rather than just a set of armour. Afterall, if all someone is offering is a generic character, and someone else is offering the same generic character +2x the amount of gold, why should the artist choose the first person? Simply because they had a faster internet connection and posted first?

Quote:

Though the way you run your thread is your choice I do not feel I should have to put on a song and dance number just to get the artist to notice me above the rest.

That is, of course, your choice, but with so many people jostling for commissions, I think it is reasonable to ask the commissionee to spend a little time convincing the artist that their image is worth taking on.

I think what it boils down to, is that I believe people who really want commissions, should have to do a little work themselves, if they want an artist to spend many hours of their time and love on an image.

The fact of the matter is, there are far more people wanting commissions, than there are people producing them, thus artists currently have the oppertunity to select commissions they feel will suit them best - be that in terms of earning quick cash, or offering particular artist challanges. It's a sellers market, as they say. I just hope artists realise it