Curse

Verene · Sep 25, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Widowmaker

I suspect part of the appeal of the Chibi is that they tend to be cheap, you can get a chibi done for a little bit of farming. Forking out XXecto is beyond a lot of players despite the belief that every player has had to buy a new storage panel for their ecto stacks.

Yeah, pretty much. Despite the common belief that wealth is easy to come by in GW, unless you seriously dedicate time to farming, most people are not going to have tons of money.

I would certainly be one of the more poor people hanging around Nolani and while I'd like to have tons and tons of artwork, I can't afford it and generally have to shoot for cheaper art (hence, lots of chibis). Nor am I good enough to do commissions myself or have any decent shot at winning in contests

I have noticed that in the time I've been hanging around GWG and Nolani, the average commission price has increased by a lot. Yes, people get better as they draw more, but some of the increases I can't exactly say have been proportionate with the increase in quality.

I also kinda tend to feel a bit like I don't quite fit here even though it's easily the section of GWG that I spend the most time in...but since I'm not someone requesting (or able to request) tons of art, or a brilliant artist myself, it kind of feels like I'm generally just...here.

YunSooJin · Sep 25, 2009, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

Yeah, pretty much. Despite the common belief that wealth is easy to come by in GW, unless you seriously dedicate time to farming, most people are not going to have tons of money.

I would certainly be one of the more poor people hanging around Nolani and while I'd like to have tons and tons of artwork, I can't afford it and generally have to shoot for cheaper art (hence, lots of chibis). Nor am I good enough to do commissions myself or have any decent shot at winning in contests

I have noticed that in the time I've been hanging around GWG and Nolani, the average commission price has increased by a lot. Yes, people get better as they draw more, but some of the increases I can't exactly say have been proportionate with the increase in quality.

I also kinda tend to feel a bit like I don't quite fit here even though it's easily the section of GWG that I spend the most time in...but since I'm not someone requesting (or able to request) tons of art, or a brilliant artist myself, it kind of feels like I'm generally just...here.

Well, even 2 years ago Vinegar was asking for 250e+ for a commission plus a 3-4 month waiting period. :s I think prices were always high, but it was more behind the scenes and less upfront.

Verene · Sep 25, 2009, 11:06 PM // 23:06

A stack of ecto for one commission...wow.

I have certainly noticed though, that 10-15k will not go nearly as far now as it did when I first wandered my way in here.

It also is annoying when commissioners vanish while they still have a huge waitlist. I think the first request I made that actually got done was from Tzu or Araiia, even though I had made several requests before that where the artist fell off the planet. I mean, I definitely understand stuff getting in the way, but a simple "sorry, need to shut this down" would probably be much appreciated by everyone involved.

Espadon · Sep 25, 2009, 11:09 PM // 23:09

I think there's a mentality that commissioners believe that if they've posted, that they should expect their commission somewhere in the pipelines. IMO the artist doesn't have an obligation at any time unless the commissioner has paid any amount, be it a deposit or prepay [never smart].

Verene · Sep 25, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Espadon

I think there's a mentality that commissioners believe that if they've posted, that they should expect their commission somewhere in the pipelines. IMO the artist doesn't have an obligation at any time unless the commissioner has paid any amount, be it a deposit or prepay [never smart].

For that reason I like when artists keep somewhat up to date with what they're working on. They don't have to, of course, but it does help cut out a lot of the "but where's my draaawing?" that'll pop up. And then personally I feel that it makes them seem more friendly and approachable, because I don't know about anyone else, but I tend to find the people who are really good slightly intimidating ^^;

Espadon · Sep 25, 2009, 11:21 PM // 23:21

I'm sure if you get in contact with any artist on Nolani that you'll be pleasantly surprised.

You shouldn't ever consider yourself ineligible to take commissions since the demand is just so damn high.

Hailfall · Sep 25, 2009, 11:28 PM // 23:28

All this bullcrap started only because 1 person decided to be whiney and complain first about nolani and then that she was leaving the forum. Okay fine your leaving, then leave and post it in your own thread but do not make a new thread just to moan about what the forum has gone if you cannot handle the load anymore and rather play a new game or whatever.

Now we are having a discussion about what has come to Nolani, just because of this?

Eragon Zarroc · Sep 25, 2009, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hailfall

All this bullcrap started only because 1 person decided to be whiney and complain first about nolani and then that she was leaving the forum. Okay fine your leaving, then leave and post it in your own thread but do not make a new thread just to moan about what the forum has gone if you cannot handle the load anymore and rather play a new game or whatever.

Now we are having a discussion about what has come to Nolani, just because of this?

it is kind of uneccessary to make an entire thread stating that you are leaving the extremely small nolani community soley because you think it is becoming too busy. lol, like it is offensive that more threads exist and that there is higher demand.

YunSooJin · Sep 25, 2009, 11:41 PM // 23:41

I think Nolani is just fine though :x

Morag D · Sep 25, 2009, 11:43 PM // 23:43

I think Nolani has pretty childish issues, atm...
quite apart from the fact that everybody either seems to be taking the piss or is complaining about something.

Hailfall · Sep 25, 2009, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Im going to agree with you there Morag..

Espadon · Sep 25, 2009, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Well I intended the discussion to better understand the current situation of commissions in Nolani, not to baw over the absence of someone [who will be missed].

For example, there are some people like Valeria who've never been able to get their commission done. There are also people like Hailfall that have had many commissions done. Sometimes I get the urge to play robin hood but that can piss off people like Hailfall who are valuable patrons D:

Hailfall · Sep 25, 2009, 11:55 PM // 23:55

I cant help it that i have a lot of money but ntohign to spend it on since i dont care about any weapons, besides the ones i already have and already have almost all armors in the game.

Espadon if you want to play Robin Hood then go ahead, it wont piss me off.. besides i do not have a commission running with you even though i had been wanting that but oh well.

Espadon · Sep 25, 2009, 11:57 PM // 23:57

I wasn't stating my case as an example, but rather looking at Araiia's refusal earlier to do work for chronic art collectors as the scenario.

Sorry for the bad wording.

No personal attacks anywhere.

Qing Guang · Sep 26, 2009, 12:01 AM // 00:01

As both an artist and a buyer (something that is, apparently, fairly rare here, with the notable exception of Morag D), I feel sort of stuck in the middle. As a buyer, I want cheap art. But as an artist, I understand how much effort goes into the artwork. So I price my art at what I think it's worth, which is not much. I'm not one of the best artists here, and I know that; I try to reflect it in my prices. But at those prices, I can't afford anyone else's stuff. I just can't earn enough to buy anything. To date I've gotten my hands on ONE commission, plus a very lovely spontanous freebie sketch. Whenever someone shows up in a price range I can afford I put up something, but they seem to have a nasty trend of burning out about 5 pieces in.

There are a couple of trends I'm not too happy with, namely chibis and auctions. Chibis... I don't know. I just feel like they're not so difficult to draw, and if I really wanted one I could make it myself, in a style I actually liked. Auctions... once again, the price range is so high it caters to only the great Patrons like YSJ and Hailfall (not that I've got anything against you guys; I just wish I had pockets that deep). I'd really love to get a picture off one of those, but I haven't got hundreds of ectos to bid - all I've got is the 50k in my account, and that's reserved to pay Espadon when my commish gets done someday.

What ends up happening is that trying to find a commish is nigh impossible if you don't have an overflowing Xunlai. Either the artists have affordable prices and wait lists so long you KNOW they'll go on hiatus (I would too) and you won't see it completed for several months, or they're charging large amounts of money, or they're doing it auction-style. If you're like me, and you haven't been playing the game since forever, and you can't farm worth a darn - in short, if your only cash is what you get from playing the game, doing minimal farms, and doing a commish here and there, and you're still trying to fund your characters at the same time - you're screwed. I'd do art trades, but fewer people seem to be into those, and I'd feel like trading my art for theirs is ripping them off.

I do have to say, after all that negativity, that I'm glad that contests are back in style. I wish a few had been in summer, as many people are in school now and have not time, but I'm happy to compete. Contests, I find, are beneficial, because they give someone who may not be fabulously wealthy (okay, 200+k is still tons more than I've ever had at once, but its still not like what you see in the auctions) a chance to get multiple pictures of their characters done by resident artists, and it gives some artists a shot at making a lot more than usual for a single piece if they win. If I manage to nab a couple wins, I'll probably turn the money back out into another contest, now that I've gotten most of the armor I want. So contests are good.

But overall I'm a bit unhappy with the way this is going; it feels like art is becoming a privilege of the uppercrust and those of us who aren't the famous Patrons can barely get anything. Out of the past 2 pages of forum, there are 11 commission threads. Several are under 50k for a minimal sketch and even in a few cases a full work, but most of those are very slow-moving due to waitlists or the artist's time constraints. Of the ones I see most commonly updating, the MINIMUM non-chibi price is 30k for a half-body partial nude. Consider: even Makani (yeah okay she's my hero, shushup) charged only 45k per piece for one of her works; nowadays, artists of a similar caliber seem to be charging over 75k or expecting large tips. The trend seems to be to do one of three things: 1) Hold an auction 2) Do art for tips, which appear to range toward the hundreds of k end of the scale (so to ask for a commish when one knows one hasn't that kind of money feels like insulting the artist) or 3) Keep comparatively low prices, but note that large bribes (once again, in the hundreds of k range usually) will... scooch one's commish to the top of the queue. I know the artists here are really fabulous, and they deserve to be paid what their art is worth, but it also leaves middle-class players stuck with the choice of waiting months for art, blowing all their cash on one fantastic piece, or not getting art at all.

Morag D · Sep 26, 2009, 12:10 AM // 00:10

ok ok crucify me for starting the auction thingy - I already declared that that got out of hand. for everything else.. it's called development. people move on. I don't do regular commissions because I don't feel like putting myself under a lot of pressure for a few loppy plat. call it elitist. but in days when people have lots of money and nothing left to spend it on, I call it capitalist market self-regulation. commissions in nolani come in waves - for months there is NOTHING and then suddenly a few threads pop up and the whole thing becomes huge; until people lose interest again. prices rise and fall in accordance with what people are prepared to pay for art. but don't blame the artists for taking advantage of that

Sierraa · Sep 26, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hailfall

All this bullcrap started only because 1 person decided to be whiney and complain first about nolani and then that she was leaving the forum. Okay fine your leaving, then leave and post it in your own thread but do not make a new thread just to moan about what the forum has gone if you cannot handle the load anymore and rather play a new game or whatever.

Now we are having a discussion about what has come to Nolani, just because of this?

By the way you describe Lumi, you sound just like her.

It's not necessarily that she can't handle the load, it's that Nolani has gone down-hill since there was an outburst of active artists. Yes there will always be people who are better at something, and yes everyone has a different style but people do swing around e-peens a bit in nolani. People also bribe spots from artists and it both the artist and the bribers fault for contributing to this behavior.

Quote:

But overall I'm a bit unhappy with the way this is going; it feels like art is becoming a privilege of the uppercrust and those of us who aren't the famous Patrons can barely get anything.

I agree with this a lot. Actually I agree with about 90% of your post. Though I want to emphasis that I truly believe that people who don't have stacks of ecto to waste on some magnificent piece appreciate the artwork they receive a lot more. ;x

YunSooJin · Sep 26, 2009, 12:14 AM // 00:14

@Qing Guang, I have nothing to say except

. Bleh.
@Morag D, So there we have it folks, we have our whipping boy right here. Let's get em :P
@Sierra, I truly believe those willing to spend all of their money for art appreciate it more? See what I did there?

hoodiestarfish · Sep 26, 2009, 12:22 AM // 00:22

With all due respect to everyone, art can take a long time to produce. Artist are free to charge what they want, it is their time and clients are free to go to whom they please. Like everything else, it is a demand and supply market. Sometimes artists need a motivation to do a commission for you that may take up to weeks at a time other than their inherent love of art and the creation process because they could afterall spend that time doing something else. Not everyone is the same, everyone walks to a different drummer especially in the art world.

The average farming rate in game is around 10-20k an hour (depending on what you do), unless u do dungeon runs or other henching. If you multiply that by the time an artist needs to work on a piece, rate per hourish, you will find that in most instances they are grossly undercharging.

Another thing is the rate of exchange of ingame items and out of game items. A piece of art is something out of game and tangible, that you hold onto forever even if Anet decides to discontinue the game tomorrow. The exchange rate is constantly falling against real world items as the game ages and there is mass inflation for everything ingame (cept the price of ectos cus anet rigged that). An artist who started drawing something for 10k per 10 hrs of work at the beginning of the game 4 years ago may have found that the 10k back then bought alot more.

Having said that, all artists are free to charge what they want and whether to do it or not. Clients are free to go where they pleased. And everyone is at liberty to comment, complain whatever. If it doesnt make u happy dont do it anymore.

As for the current state of nolani per Espadon's true topic,

whats wrong with it? What is the ideal model of Nolani supposed to be?

Widowmaker · Sep 26, 2009, 12:22 AM // 00:22

"If you're good at something, never do it for free."

I want several sets of Obby armour simply because I like how it looks, no one is going to swoop in and solve that little dilemma for me. So I have to wonder why people feel an artist should give up their time for little reward to solve their wants.

If people stopped paying, prices would drop but many wouldn't bother doing it either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Espadon

Sometimes I get the urge to play robin hood but that can piss off people like Hailfall who are valuable patrons D:

We won't judge your urges to wear tights you know.