Curse

Espadon · Sep 25, 2009, 07:10 PM // 19:10

It is quite apparent from the negative tone that started to develop on the 2nd page of what should have been kept an upbeat well-wishing thread that some sort of communication needs to be opened between artists and clients. What do you think of Nolani's current state and the direction it's headed?

Scholarly discussion only, please.

YunSooJin · Sep 25, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Before I came to Nolani, I thought artists were actually little gnomes that worked day and night to please their clients. Now as a semi-experienced client, I realize that I am the peon, buffeted around by the whims of the artists themselves. It has been a humbling experience.

Unlucky Slayer · Sep 25, 2009, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Honesty. I feel that there is way too much epeen being thrown around anymore. By the artists or the clients it does not matter. All the auctions and bribes say is "if you have money you're better than everyone". And I dont like it.

As Inde told me one day, the game is old and people have jack shit to do with their money, so with the boredom and all that they throw piles of money at art. heh

I've always felt that art should be free for all that enjoy it. And with the constant upping of the ante so to say, it saddens me.

As for the different art styles out there right now, I do feel that there has been too much chibi and not enough "traditional" styles. That also scares me to think about what will become of this area. Not that Chibi is bad, it just comes to that whole "Too much of one thing..." deal.

What I hope will happen with Nolani is that less epeen will be thrown around by way of bribes, overpriced art/auctions, and request threads disguised as contests. I'd also like to see more different art styles. (Hopefully some of the chibi people will try some new styles out.) =3 That and more art for me and Koing the guys that keep this place running. =P (The last statement was a halfway joke.)

Sure contests are good and it gets more art out there, I'd love to have Guru hosted contests, but I'd need a lot of help from everyone to get good ideas and all that bs.

Anyway I've ranted and rumbled enough for now even though it didnt come out the way I had thought about it in my head. lol

If you were offended by some of the truth in this post, suck it up. =P

StarrTheInsane · Sep 25, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

Before I came to Nolani, I thought artists were actually little gnomes that worked day and night to please their clients. Now as a semi-experienced client, I realize that I am the peon, buffeted around by the whims of the artists themselves. It has been a humbling experience.

Yun, I did too before I came here. I started doing commissions at 10k a pop and didn't turn anyone down. Looking back, I could have made 5x that just playing the game in the amount of time I spent drawing. Dont Mess Withme first convinced me that my prices were too low. An experienced buyer and art fanatic, she gave me 50k when I was only asking for 10k, and told me she expected me to place a higher value on my work.

And she was right...and greyf0x was right, to pick an choose the work you want to do. I found myself sticking to the business plan I had laid out and looking down my list of queues to see what exciting things I could get around to at some point... It's really exhausting and I lost alot of time I could have been playing the game.

The next year I stuck with freebies and contests. Things that I knew would absolutely be appreciated rather than expected. It was worth more to me to do something fun and see the response it got from the unsuspecting recipient than any amount of plat in the game (though any token of appreciation is accepted).

On a 1:1, artist do take advantage of their clients and push them around a bit BUT it's not a 1:1 at all. Artists have to call the shots or they'll get swallowed alive, so it can be intimidating for people who want to just buy a picture. Some have huge collections, some have yet to make it onto a list in time to get one done before the artist just got too busy IRL to finish.

It's not easy from either side, but one outnumbers the other a great deal.

Espadon · Sep 25, 2009, 07:31 PM // 19:31

I only count 2 chibi artists now that Araiia is out. Is that really considered too much?

Unlucky Slayer · Sep 25, 2009, 07:33 PM // 19:33

For a while everyone was doing chibi style. Haven't fully looked lately, maybe that has changed.

YunSooJin · Sep 25, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by StarrTheInsane

Yun, I did too before I came here. I started doing commissions at 10k a pop and didn't turn anyone down. Looking back, I could have made 5x that just playing the game in the amount of time I spent drawing. Dont Mess Withme first convinced me that my prices were too low. An experienced buyer and art fanatic, she gave me 50k when I was only asking for 10k, and told me she expected me to place a higher value on my work.

And she was right...and greyf0x was right, to pick an choose the work you want to do. I found myself sticking to the business plan I had laid out and looking down my list of queues to see what exciting things I could get around to at some point... It's really exhausting and I lost alot of time I could have been playing the game.

The next year I stuck with freebies and contests. Things that I knew would absolutely be appreciated rather than expected. It was worth more to me to do something fun and see the response it got from the unsuspecting recipient than any amount of plat in the game (though any token of appreciation is accepted).

On a 1:1, artist do take advantage of their clients and push them around a bit BUT it's not a 1:1 at all. Artists have to call the shots or they'll get swallowed alive, so it can be intimidating for people who want to just buy a picture. Some have huge collections, some have yet to make it onto a list in time to get one done before the artist just got too busy IRL to finish.

It's not easy from either side, but one outnumbers the other a great deal.

You're right, I agree with you completely, Starr. My post was sort of tongue-in-cheek, and was not meant to be passive aggressive or anything. I understand entirely how much time artists take, and how much pride they do have in their work. This means that they get burned out and can't possibly fill everyone's requests, unless they limit and delay people in line. That's why I'm willing to be patient (and I have been patient, believe it or not), and pay fair value for their troubles.

YSJ

StarrTheInsane · Sep 25, 2009, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I just sent you a pm about the other thread because it belonged over here, but hadn't been addressed in this thread yet. But I agree, your request was reasonable. You can't privately request art from artists whose work you haven't seen, and it's a good way to get new art into the scene. I'm sorry if it came off like I was point the finger at you for a faux-contest. I was never under the illusion that it was a contest at all and had been seriously considering drawing something for it.

As far as people posting faux-contests to lure their wish list of artists, I'm indirectly guilty of that. I had my contest planned a long time before the new wave of artists came, but was already committed to hosting it. It was all the money I had, so I didn't have any on the side to get on commission lists from them, but I thought "My prizes are pretty decent compared to their requested prices, so I'll just wait and see if they enter." A few of them did, but not all, and by the tone of their later posts on the commission threads, I'm lucky they took the time at all! However, I didn't let that interfere with judgment. If someone new had an awesome entry and it meant someone on my list was going to get less than they would have if I had gone to them for a commission...sorry...it's a contest. I just felt bad I didn't have more money for the cash prizes, because I thought alot of great pieces didn't what they deserved.

Invertation · Sep 25, 2009, 08:25 PM // 20:25

To deviate from the banter, I've taken light of a few comments. With all the personal benefit art we so avidly support, perhaps we should take a different spin and open a thread with intent to appeal to a variety of ideas that have no relation to player characters or player-associated wants. Things along the lines of nature, landscapes, completely absurd sci-fi style images that would appeal to the lovers of art in general. We could collectively gather everyone's ideas, compile a list of them and have a varied theme we could use per two weeks or so.
What I feel is important here, more than the art we so love from the well renown artists, is to open up those who have the talents but don't participate as often.
I feel as though I may have gotten lost in thought somewhere in here, so perhaps someone could work out some fitting logic to go with this.

Espadon · Sep 25, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Nice idea, but if it gets too far away from GW we might as well go back to CA.org.

GW is an old game and the enthusiasm to want to paint your brand new character and the spanking armor you just bought is gone. The only thing the art community really has left seems to be commissions.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 25, 2009, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unlucky Slayer

Honesty. I feel that there is way too much epeen being thrown around anymore. By the artists or the clients it does not matter. All the auctions and bribes say is "if you have money you're better than everyone". And I dont like it.

---

I've always felt that art should be free for all that enjoy it. And with the constant upping of the ante so to say, it saddens me.

As for the different art styles out there right now, I do feel that there has been too much chibi and not enough "traditional" styles. That also scares me to think about what will become of this area. Not that Chibi is bad, it just comes to that whole "Too much of one thing..." deal.

What I hope will happen with Nolani is that less epeen will be thrown around by way of bribes, overpriced art/auctions, and request threads disguised as contests. I'd also like to see more different art styles. (Hopefully some of the chibi people will try some new styles out.) =3 That and more art for me and Koing the guys that keep this place running. =P (The last statement was a halfway joke.)

Sure contests are good and it gets more art out there, I'd love to have Guru hosted contests, but I'd need a lot of help from everyone to get good ideas and all that bs.

---

If you were offended by some of the truth in this post, suck it up. =P

For the first time, I almost fully agree with Slayer here. Take out the parts I did, and you got what I would of said more or less (and the underlined would be the points I agree with the most).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Espadon

I only count 2 chibi artists now that Araiia is out. Is that really considered too much?

While the chibi artists is now low, it was, not to long ago, more like 4 or 5 chibi artists (Tzu *half chibi at least*, Araiia *kinda*, Marshmallo, Azalee, and there was another one I think), and now, it seems that the traditional artists are taking a break, and the requests for Chibi has sky-rocketed compared to when it was just one chibi artist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Invertation

perhaps we should take a different spin and open a thread with intent to appeal to a variety of ideas that have no relation to player characters or player-associated wants

As long as it stays to one thread. Maybe a "Random Art" thread where anyone who has any one-time non-commission art to put up.

(I was actually thinking of putting that up, but since Nolani and Lyssa's got merged, I was trying to rethink things :x)

BlueXIV · Sep 25, 2009, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Gosh... Now I want to open a chibi thread... :\

Espadon · Sep 25, 2009, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Chibis sell well, of course, and as long as Guru condones trading art for profit, I would think that profit takes precedence over anything else.

For example, I hate doing GW themed art. But I do it to fund my goals in game. If there wasn't profit to be made I wouldn't really think of doing GW art simply for the community.

YunSooJin · Sep 25, 2009, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Espadon

Chibis sell well, of course, and as long as Guru condones trading art for profit, I would think that profit takes precedence over anything else.

For example, I hate doing GW themed art. But I do it to fund my goals in game. If there wasn't profit to be made I wouldn't really think of doing GW art simply for the community.

Just curious, why do you hate GW themed art? Cause its not futuristic/scifi?

Unlucky Slayer · Sep 25, 2009, 10:02 PM // 22:02

I have plenty of ideas for non GW art, I just cant find anyone willing to do them without paying out the ass for it. =/ That's what bugs me the most. =/ (Yeah... ignore me kinda lol)

BlueXIV · Sep 25, 2009, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

Just curious, why do you hate GW themed art? Cause its not futuristic/scifi?

Dunno about Esp, but I personally get reaaaaaallly tired of fantasy after a while. It's much more the sheer quantity than anything else.

Anyways, I think the problem here is that we have a seller's market. Just need more supply :\

Honestly I don't care too much about ectos anymore, and I'm pretty much doing commissions for tips. I'm not saying I dont get paid a loooooot (probably more than it's worth), but I'm not forcing $$$ out of people yet. The main problem is that I can't really work very fast if I want a good result. Working through them chronologically is kinda dull because most of the first posters aren't even very active any more. Working through the ones I like best just gets favoritism comments. And now apparently taking bribes is not good either? :\ I guess I should use a RNG for my thread.

All I am saying is, I do commissions for fun more than anything else now, and I like to believe some of the people who are doing commissions feel some what the same. Ectos are just sorta a nice side effect.

Widowmaker · Sep 25, 2009, 10:17 PM // 22:17

I suspect part of the appeal of the Chibi is that they tend to be cheap, you can get a chibi done for a little bit of farming. Forking out XXecto is beyond a lot of players despite the belief that every player has had to buy a new storage panel for their ecto stacks.

BlueXIV · Sep 25, 2009, 10:21 PM // 22:21

I dunno, I've seen chibis go for xxEctos. I will try to refrain from commenting on that tho :P

I think the real appeal of chibis is you don't have to wait xxmonths for one. <guilty of that>

YunSooJin · Sep 25, 2009, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unlucky Slayer

Honesty. I feel that there is way too much epeen being thrown around anymore. By the artists or the clients it does not matter. All the auctions and bribes say is "if you have money you're better than everyone". And I dont like it.

As Inde told me one day, the game is old and people have jack shit to do with their money, so with the boredom and all that they throw piles of money at art. heh

I've always felt that art should be free for all that enjoy it. And with the constant upping of the ante so to say, it saddens me.

What I hope will happen with Nolani is that less epeen will be thrown around by way of bribes, overpriced art/auctions, and request threads disguised as contests. I'd also like to see more different art styles. (Hopefully some of the chibi people will try some new styles out.) =3 That and more art for me and Koing the guys that keep this place running. =P (The last statement was a halfway joke.)

If you were offended by some of the truth in this post, suck it up. =P

Despite my recent burst of activity in Nolani, I have actually been a longtime Gurus/Nolani poster. I have seen what Nolani was like 'back then' and now, and frankly I don't see much of a difference.

Firstly, what has always happened in Nolani is that artists that were deemed 'good' by the community (which by the way, is not a very high bar, artistically speaking), have always been deluged by commissions. Those artists have either 1) burned out, or 2) done private commissions by request. I remember being unable to get commissions from artists like Noanoa, Vinegar and greyfox because they were either done or other people were paying way more than others could afford. Than even I could afford back then.

I think the fact that you're taking offense to people advertising large amounts of cash is a reflection of your frustration in not being able to get commissions, not the fact that people are actually throwing around e-peen. I, for example, just genuinely want art and will pay the money I slaved for endlessly in order to get it. I don't care if I'm perceived as better or worse than others, I just want art I can save and remember for my character.

Finally, with respect to your comment that art should belong to everyone to enjoy it... I think that is dangerously naive at best. What is happening in Nolani right now that is different from any other time is that there is a large amount of demand but a dearth in the actual output by artists. With a smaller level of supply, and a rising or consistent level of demand, there is nowhere for prices to go but up. Artists do not work for free, do not have any sort of ethical or moral obligation to 'share' their art; you are merely insinuating that they work for free or for less than their fair value. Real life reflects this fact; artists in real life are paid based on their demand and their own perceived worth, there is no tut-tutting by society if an artist does not donate their own hard work for some cause.

YSJ

Unlucky Slayer · Sep 25, 2009, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Personally I dont care how long I have to wait for good art, as long as they dont forget about me. lol