Curse

Minami · Jan 18, 2012, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Hi Everyone,

I decided to open this thread so we can discuss the futures of the Workshops separately from the Wintersday Workshop thread.

In that topic, Arghore brough up some points, which I'll paste here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

I have organized the party for 5 workshops now (if not mistaken), 2x halloween and 3x wintersday. I enjoyed organizing them, but I personally think that gaining some new blood into the 'party organizing crowd' is of great value to the continuation of parties being organized ... this means that i decided that i rather wait untill somebody else points out they are interested in organizing the party, whom i would then offer my experience in more of a consulting role. This will give others the opportunity to get involved, without loozing knowledge of parties held in previous years... (if there is nobody interested, and i have the time then its likely i will do it anyways seeing i have a hard time saying 'no' and rather enjoy throwing parties, but as said, idd like to give 'young blood' a chance first! )

Arghore has always done such a wonderful job with organizing the parties, every year we had so much fun!
So, the invitation straight from him is open: If anyone is interested in stepping up (or even be his helpers), then come on, on board! We will need a lot of hands in the near future

Quote:

Then there is the other thing, that i also mentioned to GeminiJuSa, and that is GW2 ... we all know that GW1 will continue to excist, but with GW2 around the corner it's very likely that halloween & wintersday will have a much larger interest in GW2. But (and some of us 'event organizers' have already discussed this inevitability (<- did i spell that right :/ ), when GW comes out this means that gathering prizes will become a whole new ballgame, and we don't know yet if there will be somewhat easily farmed items interesting enough to give away, players like us will also want to play the game for ourselves and our own characters, and we don't know yet how easy it is to build up wealth in some form to hand out.

Yeah, there will be a LOT more people entering the workshops for sure.
This also means that there will be a lot more people watching and following as well.
Here on GWGuru, we've had mostly the same donators through he years (with respect to the new ones, but you know what I mean), with the coming of GW2, I am happily assuming that we'll also have a larger pool of donators from which we can put together nice prize packages.
Also, with the game being new, the "every bit helps" philosophy is in effect for most of us.
I remember that when I started GW, having a 100k seemed almost unreachable

People who really appreciate seeing all sorts of awesome arts will most likely contribute with whatever they feel comfortable with.

Quote:

All this is pretty well known in GW1 and some people have ecto's and other stuffz comming outof their *censorred* making it rather easy to get a nice prize pool (don't be mistaken though, if you do these things on a regular basis there is still quite some farming involved, but bigger events (like these workshops) can fortunatly also count on donations) ... unfortunatly though, it is very likely that as GW2 comes around, people will be less interested in winning things for GW1 (besides those that are trying to frantically fill their HOM), and those people rather win things for GW2 ...

I was thinking about how to solve this, and I see only one possible way...

We should be able to move the Workshop threads over to the GW2Guru forums, and open a thread on these forums linking to the thread on GW2Guru.
Then, if we see from demand that it's a necessity, we can open a winner category for GW1 art, if anyone is so inclined to do it.
TBH, I highly doubt anyone would want to do GW1 art over brand new fresh GW2 stuff.

I know I probably won't.

Then, the prize pools will be put together for GW2, and the prize for "Best GW1 art" category could be a big bunch of GW1 stuff.
Why else would someone enter the workshop with GW1 art if not to win GW1 prizes?

Quote:

This leaves events (like these workshops) rather stuck between a rock and a hard place ... not to mention the still shady "when it's done" uncertainty related to the above ... There is just one way to get these community events off the ground in this new situation. It is a strategy that related to ancient warfare campaigns, everybody chips that which he can spare, it all becomes a bigg pile, which is then distributed over the event (meaning that donations to the workshop f/e are also distributed somewhat over the party, as being part of one and the same event, and or people donate items with the party in mind (drinks f/e)) ...

See above.

Quote:

This sort of means that everybody involved in these workshops, should keep them in the back of their mind as we transit to GW2, so we can pile up all the little stuff to make a couple nice prizes and throw a decent party

... and us as organizers need to also be aware that we can use GW1 prizes aswell (maybe as a sort of 'pick your prize pool' either GW1 or GW2) for those that are still somewhat busy with their HOM...

It may be all somewhat far away now, but it will come, thus best be prepaired !!

I will be putting away things from the start of GW2 to donate to the workshop, little things here and there... Hope GW2 will have a decent sized storage space! ^_^

Bottom line is that we need to get prepared for GW2, if we want to make a nice & smooth transition of the workshops over to the new game.
I'm still working on my titles in GW, but once I'm done, I'll put everything else away for donating as GW1 prizes for the GW1 category if necessary.

I think we can totally make this all work, and I am SUPER excited to create all new GW2 art!

What do you all think?

Sierraa · Jan 18, 2012, 05:27 AM // 05:27

I would be more than willing to step up for the in game parties.

Quote:

when GW comes out this means that gathering prizes will become a whole new ballgame, and we don't know yet if there will be somewhat easily farmed items interesting enough to give away, players like us will also want to play the game for ourselves and our own characters, and we don't know yet how easy it is to build up wealth in some form to hand out.

With the dev team now paying attention to our workshops we have the backing of irl prizes. I don't think this will be too much of an issue, most of us are still more than willing to donate what we have.

Aeronwen · Jan 18, 2012, 08:18 AM // 08:18

The plan has always been to move over to GW2G once the game is out, Tzu has said she would be back for that (real life permitting). But I do not see the point of moving over there BEFORE the game is out. We have had a sticky thread in Whispers notifying GW2G artists of the workshops for at least the last two, the idea being to bring the two communities closer together.

Although we all fully expect GW2 to be out before the next workshop we cannot be sure.

Also I have had no confirmation that there will be an Anet donation for future workshops although they have said they want to continue to support this community

Morag D · Jan 18, 2012, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeronwen

But I do not see the point of moving over there BEFORE the game is out.

I totally agree with that. We (as a community) have never been officially in planning for workshops over half a year in advance, and I'm not sure why we need to do it now. I appreciate your enthusiasm, and I'm naturally in favour of having workshops again for GW2, but I also believe that things will fall in place nicely on GW2guru ONCE the game is actually out. And if, in the first year, it isn't about huge prizes because people don't have much to give away yet, then I don't see the problem either. While it is admittedly nice to win large sums of gold [ahem...

], I think a lot of people participate because of the community spirit and the chance to be a part of something and improve.

I reckon it's enough to say that we as of now do not have anyone who's already signed up to organising a workshop, so people can start thinking about whether they'd be up for it. Planning beyond that might be a waste of effort, because we have no way of knowing how the new community will turn out.

Tzu · Jan 18, 2012, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Some excellent points ITT so far!

I was planning to get back to the workshops when GW2 was released, as some of you might know. I think, as we first start out, we should focus more on IRL prizes, and then expand the in-game prizes as the in-game economy grows. I agree that we should definitely have a GW1 award with GW1 prizes - I can promise to contribute heavily to that category if few others will.

Though I'm sure it would be a great way for ex-GW1 players to donate funds which would otherwise just gather dust in their xunlai. That said, I don't think GW1 money will completely lose their value in relation to GW2; I think there will still be a market for people trading GW2 gold/goods for GW1 gold/goods to fill their HoM and the like.

We will see a big rise in number of contestants once GW2 is out, as has been said. I think this calls for even more thorough organisation than we've seen so far, it might be good to expand to a second media other than the forums, to better keep track of entries, deadlines and information in general. I've been thinking we should have a blog with a gallery sort of thing, and an IRC and/or Vent/Mumble/teamspeak to go with. I should be able to handle this, if no one else is interested. I believe I have a server we can use.

I think we need a team of at least 4 core organizers, hopefully a few more, who split the 'main organizer' work between them, such as handling entries, updating a blog, admin/modding the chat/vent, updating the thread, and so forth. In addition we need a team of people who can handle in-game related work, such as receiving donations, handing out prizes, answering questions and possibly organizing a party, across a broad spectre of timezones. Top that off with a table of 4 or more judges, and you should have it covered. The main challenge here is to actually get considerable amount of people to help, and to ensure one group of people does not actively have to catch up and do other groups' fallout work. I'm prolly sounding a bit nazi here, but I just want to be realistic. If we want to do this and do it properly we need a lot of people. I dunno if it needs to be said but I also think every organizer/helper should be allowed to compete for the workshop prizes except the judges. The judges should be allowed to enter, but not compete.

I think we should move to GW2G, but not before GW2 is released, as has been said. It might be good to wait and see what's gonna happen with the bi-annual art contests too. They have a certain impact on the workshop to say the least.

This is all probably quite redundant, but it's just my 2p.

Minami · Jan 18, 2012, 03:32 PM // 15:32

I agree with everything Tzu said.
Sorry girl, I forgot that you were planning on being back in the workshop game when GW2 is out

I didn't mean to move over to GW2G before the GW2 contests come along! Sorry if that was misunderstood.

Moving over there before would make no sense.

I'd be more than happy to be a core organizer, when the workload is shared among more than 2-3 people, it's a lot easier to keep up with everything while having real life.

Tzu, I don't think you sound nazi at all, unfortunately when people donate their time for no pay, there's usually some catch-up to be played.

Sorry about bringing this all up so early in advance... I just like to know what to expect later down the road, and not starting to scramble and stress right before it's all going down.

Having Anet's support would be fantastic, to say the least.

Again, I have to agree with Tzu, that workshop organizers should be able to enter the workshop as well, except for just the judges.
I forgot to write about that in first post...

Araiia · Jan 18, 2012, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minami

Then, the prize pools will be put together for GW2, and the prize for "Best GW1 art" category could be a big bunch of GW1 stuff.
Why else would someone enter the workshop with GW1 art if not to win GW1 prizes?

I remember at one point in the past, (non-virtual, real life) plushies were donated as part of the prize for an event on Guru. Unless there is some rule/extreme complications, I don't see why you can't offer real life prizes for future workshops. Even gift cards (or codes for costumes from the NC store, which I recall have also been offered as prizes on Guru in the past) would work.

Going off on a bit of a tangent here, one of the things that I think NA Aion did do right (most of the time) was the use of costumes/real life prizes for their community contests. I don't like the idea of having to decide between actually playing the game versus working on art/entering contests as a means of obtaining in-game items/money. With the broken GW1 economy, for some people arting has become a viable (and likely more profitable) use of time when compared to farming in-game. At the moment, with how money-based the HoM is, you can essentially win the game purely by drawing pictures. Even runs and missions can be bought.

If you want to art, it should be because you enjoy doing so. With Aion contests the prizes were just the cherry on top (although some of the sponsored electronics were worth quite a lot) and you were not 'penalized' for choosing to play the game normally instead of participating in community/contests.

Winning a contest should reward you with the knowledge that you won, and a 'trophy' for prestige and fond memories. It should not suddenly put you miles ahead of hundreds or thousands of other players (included among them are contestants who didn't win) in terms of finances or game progression.

Of course, there is still much that is unknown. With the implementation of auctions and (supposedly) less elitist everyone-can-join-in dynamic events, the GW2 economy will hopefully probably be nothing like that of GW1. Money in games with auction houses (of which I have played WoW, Aion, Eden Eternal, and Perfect World) tends to be very fluid: quickly earned, easily spent. If GW2 goes this route - if you want workshop prizes to be meaningful, in-game money rewards aren't the way to go.

Sierraa · Jan 18, 2012, 08:19 PM // 20:19

I actually sent out a few messages to people who I thought would be interested in a more organized committee. I'll see what I can do with my mod powers too.

Jenn · Jan 18, 2012, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Keep in mind that there's already also a strong art community on GW2G. We will be setting up an Events and Contest committee over there - it's not quite as simple as just migrating a bunch of staff (since we're looking to make Events/Contests an actual official part of the staff responsibilities). We obviously don't have the details hammered out for GW2G - that's a bit of a ways off, at least where LoW is concerned, but when it comes to Guru hosting contests and events (like, as a staff), LoW will occasionally fall under that umbrella.

Minami · Jan 18, 2012, 10:02 PM // 22:02

@Jenn: Yes, GW2G's art community is strong already, I also post art stuff over there (not lately though, it's been a while

RL stuffs) and it's a pleasure to be part of that community as well.

I guess I'll just drop the topic for now then, seeing that Guru staff are wanting to set up their own Events and Contests crew.

We'll figure it all out better as the time goes, and when we know more than what we do now

Tzu · Jan 19, 2012, 01:45 PM // 13:45

@Minami: I'm glad you took the initiative to start this thread, it's nice to be able to talk about this in advance so we know what we're all planning and expecting of future workshops. After all, it might just be a few months before open beta, and we will most probably see the release of gw2 before the next art contest comes around. It'll be workshop-time again before you know it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Araiia

Winning a contest should reward you with the knowledge that you won, and a 'trophy' for prestige and fond memories. It should not suddenly put you miles ahead of hundreds or thousands of other players (included among them are contestants who didn't win) in terms of finances or game progression.

I agree with you on this. Maybe we could implement a real life trophy which remains more or less the same every year, in addition to whatever other real life prizes we come up with, to give to the grand winner(s)?

@Jenn/Sierraa: Just want to get this straight: So in the future, an Events/Contest committee might want to partake in the responsibility of the workshops? Do you advice us to wait and see how that works out before we continue discussion on this topic? I'm a little confused, 'been out of the game for so long.

Jenn · Jan 20, 2012, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Tzu,

Guru has no 'official' claim over the workshops

. If you guys still want to run those as a separate entity from Guru, that's perfectly fine!

However, I guess the way I was thinking is... if we have an Events & Contests committee on GW2G, it would make facilitating things like workshops easier. I'm basically saying... qualified applicants that are interested in an events and contests committee would have a position on staff. That way, you may have more resources to organize events (like workshops). Plus (and I can't guarantee this), then there'd more likely be sponsorships of RL prizes.

Keep in mind that an Events committee would be representing the interests of the whole of GW2G, not just the Library of Whispers section.

Long story short: it's up to you what you guys want to do with the workshops, but there will be an Events/Contest committee on GW2G regardless of whether or not you want to integrate the workshops as a part of staff, or keep them separate

.

Tzu · Jan 21, 2012, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn

-snip-

cool bananas, thanks for the reply. Aero has been filling me in a bit on how the workshops have been run the past couple of times, so I see where you want to go with the comittee. A justified, ambitious and generous effort on Guru's behalf.

And just to clarify, I didn't mean to suggest the workshop is taken off the forums. What I meant to say is that we should have an additional media to handle information, for expample the entries: They should be avilable from the OP still, but it would be nice to have a gallery for easy viewing too. It's just a suggestion though, I don't have the final say on any of this, so please feel free to discuss.

BladeWind · Jan 21, 2012, 09:31 PM // 21:31

That's interesting Jenn, i'll keep my eye on news of that Events/Contest committee on GW2G.

Minami · Jan 22, 2012, 12:17 AM // 00:17

@Jenn: Thank you for explaining it ^_^
The committee sounds interesting, very generous and very cool! I'll keep a look out for more info about it, I'm definitely interested

@Tzu: I think a gallery to showcase the arts sounds like a good idea, it would streamline a lot of things.

I look so much forward to GW2 and GW2G events/contests/workshops, it's gonna be SO exciting! ^_^

Arghore · Jan 25, 2012, 04:50 AM // 04:50

What would be interesting to find out is whether people can still add things to their HOM in GW1 that 'count' for GW2, after they have linked the accounts. So say i get 34/50 and i already linked the accounts, now if i get an extra point would i still gain the title in GW2 ...

Why is this interesting? because then there are a lot of prizes that are viable prizes for a workshop say in June, because i realy liked the idea of a dragon festival art competition, in the year of the dragon, and having GW2 come out revolving around dragons, like how much more dragon inspiration do you want?

Now what would be interesting prizes, to hand out:
- Armors (and not just the 2 realy hard ones)
- Weapons (which are viable in any number that makes another point)
- Full sugar, Full alcohol, Full party titles
- Mini's
- And if the organizers feel like it they could even offer a full run in any elite area (but surrows furnace), for statues...

Some of these prizes would even be valuable for me, since over the near 7 years i played i never realy bothered with the super elite armors, i think i have either 5 or 7 elite ones in hom, I have a full weapons display (11) but not all weapons filled (15). So it is likely that others may well have open 'spots' in their HoM aswell, aslong as the prizes correspond with nearly direct points, they are good prizes in my views (for both GW1 aswell as GW2) ...

And i think it would be cool if it is done like the IRL prizes were done for this last wintersday workshop, let the winners decide the pick. If we mix in GW1 with GW2 prizes people can decide for themselves what they benefit most from, a small but reasonable prize for GW2 directly, or a/some additions to their HoM. If we manage to get but a few IRL prizes, we could just throw them in the mix, and assign picks to the winner instead of straight up direct prizes for the catagories...

I also think that having a contest in June is good for the actual flow of workshops during the year (and thus continued practice for those needing a stimulus). I myself have always thought the halloween and wintersday workshops were so close together it felt like it was all workshop for a couple of months, to then have nothing for 10months straight.

Problem with IRL prizes though, is that they cost money, and not just to get but also to send out, and donating Ingame stuff of which you have plenty is different from giving hard cash ... So if it were to be done in june, the team should try and coordinate with Guru as well as ArenaNet (and ofcourse the artists) to see if such a thing would be possible ... while always keeping in mind that GW2 may not be out by then ... interesting challenge, where the workshop party may well be the first legit party in GW2 after all the start festivities...

Arghore · Jan 25, 2012, 04:58 AM // 04:58

What i wonder about from those having organized the workshop in the past, how much time b4 the deadline do these workshops usually start ?

So the dragon festival tends to start at 1 july, after which there are like 4/5 days, in 2012 the 1st of july is a sunday, so it is likely the festival starts at the end of june, the thursday prior to that weekend. If we were to take the 1st of July as the deadline, when would the workshop start ?

Aeronwen · Jan 25, 2012, 10:53 AM // 10:53

I think we have usually had about 6 weeks for the workshop and a week or two for judging. But the latest news seems to make it probable that GW2 will be out this summer, will people want a summer workshop?

Arghore · Jan 25, 2012, 09:27 PM // 21:27

ok, so that would put the start of the workshop at around 15th of May, given a deadline on 1st of July. If the judging finishes by the 1st of July, meaning the prizes are handed out during the event itself, the workshop should start around the 1st of May, with six weeks of workshop time, it will end by the 16th of June, then 2 weeks of judging will place the workshop results at the actual event.

Now, as for GW2, in februari the beta will start to open up, with media first, then in march and april the weekends will extend their 'openness'... if i remember correct from GW1 beta, there were 10-12 beta-weekends, then a 2 to 3months of silence, then the game went gold. Now Anet did mention that the beta would be closer to release this time, but that is only likely if there are no big things needing to be fixed. So lets assume that there are no major things that need changing and the game being finished for about 98% atm. Seeing the recent pressrelease for beta untill April, this workshop were to start somewhere at the end of the beta weekends. Given a 2 month pollish period (may/june) the game were to go gold at around the dragon festival or just prior to it. Unless there are major changes to be had, in which case it will take longer.

This makes it rather unlikely that there will be enough time to do any GW2 ingame prizes, unless the game goes live just after the beta. In which case the game would go live at around the start of the workshop. If anything the betaweekend will give people enough inspiration to incorporate it into their art ... But i do wonder whether people will be motivated to work on their art if the game has just gone live, i for one would probably spend time 'in game' instead of 'on art'...

And ofcourse the question remains if people would want a workshop in May/June, but then, why not ? I personally wouldn't mind

Aeronwen · Jan 26, 2012, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

But i do wonder whether people will be motivated to work on their art if the game has just gone live, i for one would probably spend time 'in game' instead of 'on art'...

Yes that was my thought - we need to hear from some artists now