Curse

Verene · Aug 03, 2009, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=870
Take a look at his first few pages and his last few pages :\ It's really amazing how much better he got.

Wow. That really makes me want to pull out my sketchbook/plug in my tablet...

I've found my biggest downfall is that I always struggle in getting the proportions right, when I'm trying to draw people. Every trick that I've ever seen in getting anatomical proportions correct I just cannot seem to get to work >.>

Tzu · Aug 03, 2009, 12:24 AM // 00:24

oh, random note, I made an avatar out of your freebie, Nian! <3
I couldn't fit the chinchilla within the 100x100 box without angering him (Q.Q) so I drew his neck away (you should still be able to see where he used to be XD I'm so sloppy)!

I often use reference images if I'm uncertain about the anatomy for a particular pose. Sometimes I look through a magazine or read a comic and find a *perfect* idea for a pose, and then I'll use that as a ref.
If you're really uneasy, you could start out tracing. You'll learn a lot more if you work freehand though. Things come together in your head and make a lot more sense, and you'll remember how certain things work the next time you draw a similar pose/figure.

Duranin · Aug 03, 2009, 12:24 AM // 00:24

@Blue - WALLOFTEXT /faint
... back on topic, I'll be honest I don't really welcome CnC. I usually know most of the flaws in my art and having it repeated back at me tends to put me on the defensive. Why, then, don't I fix it before uploading my art? Because I can't. Not yet. First comes recognizing the problem, then comes learning better ways to deal with it. Also a lot of my problems (especially anatomical ones) I don't really fully recognize until I've completed the whole picture and sit back and look at it. By that time I cbf to go back and fix it because of how much additional revising it would take. I just keep it there as a reference for the future. I try to comfort myself by saying that I'm not drawing seriously, yes, but when I try to improve I take it in little steps. I find an artist who is slightly better than me and try to figure out what it is that they do that makes their art look better. I don't immediately set my sights on the high-end artists, because all that does is demoralize me and make my progress go backwards. My psychology is kind of weird.

@Espadon - I'm definitely a wrist person. I can't draw or paint large curves to save my life.. it's also one of the reasons all my art comes out so tiny and rarely over 900 pixels in either direction. Believe it or not all my art is the original size, I don't scale down at the end.

Tzu · Aug 03, 2009, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Araiia of the Songs

@Blue - WALLOFTEXT /faint
... back on topic, I'll be honest I don't really welcome CnC. I usually know most of the flaws in my art and having it repeated back at me tends to put me on the defensive. Why, then, don't I fix it before uploading my art? Because I can't. Not yet. First comes recognizing the problem, then comes learning better ways to deal with it. Also a lot of my problems (especially anatomical ones) I don't really fully recognize until I've completed the whole picture and sit back and look at it. By that time I cbf to go back and fix it because of how much additional revising it would take. I just keep it there as a reference for the future. I try to comfort myself by saying that I'm not drawing seriously, yes, but when I try to improve I take it in little steps. I find an artist who is slightly better than me and try to figure out what it is that they do that makes their art look better. I don't immediately set my sights on the high-end artists, because all that does is demoralize me and make my progress go backwards. My psychology is kind of weird.

that doesn't sound too weird at all! ^^
I'm like that IF I DONT ask for CC but get it anyway. If I take the initiative and ask for it however, I find it much easier to take in and truly appreciate.
One of the reasons why I don't like dA is that it is, to me, a strange mix of a place to dump your art, and a place to receive crit. Recently they've developed the option of asking for and receiving critiques, before it was pretty much random whether you got a "OMG KAWAII SUGOI" (quoting blue here I believe) comment or a "the leg looks wonky" comment. Also, there are a lot of trolls on dA, people who just throw crap at you and don't seem to appreciate you efforts at all. Sometimes their crits are completely off, too.
Coming from that community, I grew a slightly-too-thick hide against CC, cus you really can't trust the dA audience. It's only just recently that I've started to truly absorb CC whenever I get it, work with what I have and strive towards what I need.

You could always msn me if you want some friendly crit, perhaps best if you ask for crit on unfinished work or sketches, and just leave commissions out of the picture. That way your queue can move along as it usually does, not stopping to see you rework a piece, and you don't have to worry about pride or anything like that ~ sketches are sketches, after all.

EDIT: I just have to say, I think it's really good that you're honest regarding how you feel about critiques. I admire how you always seem to speak your mind, no matter what! ^^

Widowmaker · Aug 03, 2009, 02:01 AM // 02:01

I always felt dA was more of a place to make that step and show your work to a wider audience than anything else, and it can be a nice place to gain some inspiration from some of the talented folks who do post there.

*Slinks off again*

UraLoo · Aug 03, 2009, 02:50 AM // 02:50

I think it's just plain rude to throw critiques at a finished piece of artwork if the artist hasn't asked for it (especially in a hobby forum), developing work I personally don't have a problem, although I wouldn't do it myself unless asked.

I'm still calling myself a hobby artist for sure. I'm a long way away from the professional art world, but it's never wavered my passion. I spend all day looking at the world around me thinking how I can put it all onto canvas. I get 100 new images to look at in my inbox everyday, some better than others, but all equally worthy of the word "art". I'm actually truly shocked by the amount of high-end formal education here (God, don't take that the wrong way). I flunked high-school so I've always admired those people.

I don't know what I want out of this life. At the moment I'm shooting towards tattooing (working on fruit and such) but I have very unstable thoughts on how long it's going to hold my interests and on the other hand I feel I'm going to let a lot of people down if I don't at least try. Shit, that's all very off topic. My bad.

---

As for the tablet thing, I'm truly the wrong person to give advice for sure. I've only ever had my Intuos 2 which was a birthday present over 5 years ago. These things last a very, very long time. I used to take mine to school everyday. It's been dropped, had things spilled on it and who knows what else. I don't know about Wacom's later models though, but I can't imagine they'd be much different.

Anyway, I want to ask a question.

As an artist what is your own personal greatest hurdle and how do you overcome it?

Mine is my self esteem issues. Mostly about my own self worth and overall confidence. To overcome it I force myself into situations that I can't get out of easily. Say, for instance... a Guild Wars commission thread. This is less a pursuit of virtual wealth and more an exercise for gaining self-confidence. Wasn't aware the welcome would be so enthusiastic though.

BlueXIV · Aug 03, 2009, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Mine is motivation for sure. I am extremely lazy, and posting here with a commission thread helps me get going.

and about CnC, I'm not saying everyone has to be an "AWESOME ARTIST," but since this is a part of the internet, I kind of expect people to have a pretty thick skin. Nolani is actually incredibly nice and sheltered when compared to even the rest of gwgurus. There are some flamers of course, but I genuinely believe 99% of the average posters here are nice people.

They are generally nice, and if there is one comment sandwiched between them telling you how your art can improve, I'd just take that as being helpful and thank them. Of course there _are_ always people who throw useless comments at your whether you like them or not. Not naming any names, but I think we've all seen some of that here.

I'll probably start doing CnC only if people explicitly say they then. I guess doing CnC in commission threads is a bit disrespectful? :\. I'll keep it to PMs (and MSN, tzu) then. You're all welcome to come into my thread and rip my paintings apart tho D:

@Uraloo, o_O I didn't know that XD. I almost always only CnC finished works because I find that the most helpful. When it's just developing, I know there are faults, and I try to fix them. If it's still there in the finished piece, it means I didn't notice, which is when I need someone to point it out for me :\
Personal preference ya?

@Widowmaker, I've said a lot of bad things about dA, but really, it's exactly what you described it as. Most of the posters are casual users (or trolls) though, so you just gotta take comments with a grain of salt. Very easy there to either despair that no one likes you, or get a humongous ego from lots of favorites.

edit:
@Verene, you might want to try drawing from life if it's possible at all. Photos tend to be kinda (really) distorted, so sometimes learning proportions isn't that great with it. There is this great ebook that pretty much everyone recommends on CA.org... it's free too, lemme search it up...

http://www.placidchaos.com/Loomis/An...;s%20Worth.pdf

It's a GREAT resource, bit dated as you can tell from the hair styles :P, but everything still applies (we haven't mutated that much yet).

Anyways, I'd just say drawdrawdraw, I know I'm bad with anatomy, so I do it a lot. Hopefully by winter, I'll have a handle on how to draw people

Espadon · Aug 03, 2009, 03:29 AM // 03:29

I think for me it was learning to let go and to destroy and restart. It's oftentimes really hard to destroy stuff that one has worked a long time on, even if it doesn't fit in well. I ended up specifically destroying stuff that I've worked hard on just to get used to letting go and came up with a credo to keep myself going -- "To create you must be able to destroy" -- and as I went I had a progressively easier time obliterating as the constant practice also made it easier to [re]create.

BlueXIV · Aug 03, 2009, 03:30 AM // 03:30

haha, I'm pretty much the opposite... I had to control the urge to scrap my painting and restart it. I've scrapped paintings that I've worked for days on, just because I didn't feel like it was cool or something D:

Chicken of the Seas · Aug 03, 2009, 03:35 AM // 03:35

I'm more in photography, so sorry if I stick out like a sore thumb.

For me I need to go less with a crowd pleaser photograph and instead take pictures of subjects that people would normally consider ugly, or boring, but take it in an interesting way. I'm guilty of having a lot of puppy photographs (because people love puppies!). However I love adult dogs too, especially bully breeds except I don't take too many pictures of them because I'd have to bother someone to keep him out for me, or because I figure, "Well, I can always try it some other time."

Yeah I have photos of adult dogs but its always the puppies that brings the most attention and favorites =P.

Anyway since I'm pretty much alone in my photography view amongst digital drawing/painting artists, I'll slink out now =P.

Espadon · Aug 03, 2009, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueXIV

haha, I'm pretty much the opposite... I had to control the urge to scrap my painting and restart it. I've scrapped paintings that I've worked for days on, just because I didn't feel like it was cool or something D:

I have no problem with THAT. It's when you feel it's cool but there's something wrong that was inherent from the beginning. Ex WIP of Alis:

Had to obliterate her face because it just didn't fit as I changed improved the pose as I went. Do please laugh at the entire silliness of the anatomy. This was from last year and I spent waaaay too much time just on the face.

BlueXIV · Aug 03, 2009, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Yeah, I have no trouble with throwing away work... -_-
I try not to focus too much on one area if I can, but if and when I fall into that pitfall, I just paste this and onto the face or whatever, and force myself to redo it :P

I like the mood in that WiP tho

Espadon · Aug 03, 2009, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueXIV

I try not to focus too much on one area if I can, but if and when I fall into that pitfall, I just paste this

GG that's a great idea there!

Duranin · Aug 03, 2009, 03:56 AM // 03:56

I ... don't really know what my biggest personal hurdle would be. I know for sure that I have a lot of problems but none of them seem overpowering compared to the rest. I suppose it's a toss-up between excessive pride (unwillingness to learn and experiment) and excessive humility (lack of motivation to improve). They sound sort of contradictory I suppose..

Painting has always been kind of touchy for me because no matter how many tutorials and experimental pieces I attempt, the results are always so far from what I want that I basically quit even trying to paint for long periods of time. I'm more or less content with being a stylized/cartoon/semi-anime artist. I've spent so many years working in this style of art, at this point I'd rather improve on it rather than try to drop it and start anew in a completely different direction.

Verene · Aug 03, 2009, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken of the Seas

I'm more in photography, so sorry if I stick out like a sore thumb.

For me I need to go less with a crowd pleaser photograph and instead take pictures of subjects that people would normally consider ugly, or boring, but take it in an interesting way. I'm guilty of having a lot of puppy photographs (because people love puppies!). However I love adult dogs too, especially bully breeds except I don't take too many pictures of them because I'd have to bother someone to keep him out for me, or because I figure, "Well, I can always try it some other time."

Yeah I have photos of adult dogs but its always the puppies that brings the most attention and favorites =P.

Anyway since I'm pretty much alone in my photography view amongst digital drawing/painting artists, I'll slink out now =P.

Yay for being normally outsiders here - while I do draw and paint some, I primarily do photomanipulations. Though even those I haven't done a huge amount with lately...meh. Lazy. They can be so finicky to do well, and while I've finally gotten down some good blending techniques sometimes things still look slightly out of place, and there are times I have issues in getting the lighting and contrasts and coloring on everything to match up.

Also, silly anatomy or not, that's some pretty badass armor, Espadon

And it really does help if I can remember who posted what, doesn't it.

Chicken of the Seas · Aug 03, 2009, 05:05 AM // 05:05

I know what you mean Verene! I do some photo manipulations as well and get frustrated as hell when things don't seem to be blending in, no matter what techniques I use.

I also kinda understand the feeling of "its not working" and wanting to start over, except its kinda different for me. I'll have this big, awesome part of a picture (or perhaps its one of the main elements) yet it comes off looking not quite right. As much as it sucks to know I wasted time on it, I scrap it and then start that part over again in hopes I can make it look better.

Morag D · Aug 03, 2009, 08:15 AM // 08:15

@ CnC: I like people seriously commenting on my stuff, finished or WIP, because I can then try to make it better next time - I also seriously think that it helps you finding faults that you don't take in any more because you've just been looking at the damn piece for far too long. I've got a thick skin when it comes to recieving critique (I've got a BA in interior design... having your project torn apart every single week FTW!), but I just can't stand offensive one-liners - if you say something is crap, please elaborate why it is crap, and doing so, help the artist progress. Kthx.

I wasn't saying that by seeing this as a hobby art forum, people should lower their own standards and be less ambitious about their art - not in the least. I just don't like outsiders coming along and comparing fanart with professionals, that's all. An artist may compare and measure him/herself against whoever they like, and it's always good to aim high, but I don't think that other people should do it unless the artist explicitly wanted it. But I also think that if an artist REALLY doesn't want his/her work criticized, then PLEASE SAY SO - we can't be expected to know! (Sorry at this point if I've tried to critique someone in this forum without being asked for it; just trying to help).

biggest hurdle? motivation (cuz I'm a lazy lazy bum) and the fact that if you show any grain of talent, whenever you take out your sketchbook in (semi)public [that includes family], a huge crowd tends to gather around you and stare at your progress. That just puts me off practicing, especially when drawing people. Architecture is fine, I'm quite comfortable with that, but it takes me a lot of time and revising to get a figure the way it should be, and I just can't have people watching me. That's pretty pathetic, and something I shoulg get over because it's useless, but there you have it. I draw well in my private little room where I can scrap and curse as much as I want without anybody noticing

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edit: has anyone ever noticed that this is an eeevul eeeeeeevul thread that makes you read it all the time and not doing any work? YAY for 30 lollygagged office minutes

Nian · Aug 03, 2009, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Everybody is so in denial about having art as their profession here.

Well I don't know what you end up doing in the future. I was in denial for the longest time with having art as a profession because I was afraid of competition, burning myself out and what not but let me tell you... Like a smart lady on another forum said: There is no starving artist complex, you are only jobless if you are too picky about jobs.

IRL deadlines come before everything. If you don't have the time to do it the way you want to you google some pix and paint over. You almost certainly always use reference when needed. You are going to be drawing stuff you never drew before and it still needs to look polished and pro(you need reference). There is no time to fool around or improvise. Basically if this is not your thing then you might want to consider some other job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueXIV

I think some CnC is always good, but that's just my opinion. I usually only CnC when I think people care, but I think being told when something looks off is much easier than struggling to find what's wrong. There's nothing bad about getting better. Anyways, it's pretty easy to tell when someone would like CnC and when someone would rather not hear it. As long as you are nice about it, I don't think it's a bad thing.

It is good I guess when the person wants & needs it. It's good when you've worked on a piece for several hours and have become blinded by it. I find though that with my 'lil circle of artist friends we don't crit each other on default. We all have our faults, we can all see them ourselves. Araiia put it well. It is only after generous begging for some harsh crits that anybody bothers to give any haha. We all started on hobbyist forums too. There were people giving really harsh crits and people going all "I LOVE EET". Wheter those comments made me any better I don't think so. The nicest comment is one where you give positive feedback and mention one or two things bothering you about the piece but not a whole listing of errors. When working on a big piece that is really important to you is when harsh crits come into play. In the end only grinding it; drawing & drawing & drawing until your fingers bleed will make anyone better. Just keep doing it persistently. That's all there is to it.

Oh btw you are always welcome to crit me whenever you feel like it lawls. <3 I know Jason Chan's early stuff too. I was a fan even back then. Haha talk about change of style but he was definitely talented back then too and his anime work stood out from the mass imo. You could say he is my idol in that he gives me the feeling that anyone can do a 180 turn if they desire to.

The occupational hazard here with being a pro(having art as profession) is that my wrists fuken fail me. Sometimes they hurt so bad. It may be just the way I'm built but I can not change my technique of drawing so easily and it always ends with my hands aching. This is only with using a tablet and is going to be a serious problem in the future if I don't figure something out...Maybe I need to concider doing traditional stuff at some point.

Tzu · Aug 03, 2009, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morag D

[...] finding faults that you don't take in any more because you've just been looking at the damn piece for far too long.

myeeah, that is probably my biggest issue >.>''
I get really bored really quickly, and I tend to stop working on an artwork if I've been at it >10hours, never to return to it again... Mostly I reach a point when I CBA to go on anymore, and I just finish it really quickly and ignore my faults. It's hard to get around, since I'm so much more fussed about my education and private life to really care about my art. I do it for fun, and sometimes it turns out good. I feel I'm totally unrealiable, even if I do try to improve a bit with every work I create.

I love photography too! I also like writing. Costumes is my passion, but it takes soo much more time and is such a goldsink (:P) that I have to let my fingers work with something else every now and then to "release my creative energy", if you will, through different outputs.

That said, now I really want to go draw for some reason.
I'll do that! 83

Nian · Aug 03, 2009, 10:59 AM // 10:59

I just want to add... DeviantArt is NOT the place to receive good crits or anything of the sort. It is pure crap place for that. On DA you are only good if you are drawing fanart from a popular series and get hundreds of faves. This will do nothing for your developement. Find some serious artists to ask from or go to conceptart.org for that. You don't need hundreds of comments. Just a few good ones from people who know what they're talking about. There are plenty of people on this forum who could give better comments than the majority of DA users.

Quote:

and about CnC, I'm not saying everyone has to be an "AWESOME ARTIST," but since this is a part of the internet, I kind of expect people to have a pretty thick skin. Nolani is actually incredibly nice and sheltered when compared to even the rest of gwgurus. There are some flamers of course, but I genuinely believe 99% of the average posters here are nice people.

Gamers are out for BLOOD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Espadon

I think for me it was learning to let go and to destroy and restart. It's oftentimes really hard to destroy stuff that one has worked a long time on, even if it doesn't fit in well. I ended up specifically destroying stuff that I've worked hard on just to get used to letting go and came up with a credo to keep myself going -- "To create you must be able to destroy" -- and as I went I had a progressively easier time obliterating as the constant practice also made it easier to [re]create.

Hehe the basics of "kill your darlings".
I used to have these comic characters and stories several years old that were going nowhere until I learned to erase all those unnessecary characters I loved so much. Rechange and rearrange everything in the stories etc. It was a big improvement. The story must go on.