Curse

Drakron · Jul 07, 2005, 02:18 PM // 14:18

I hate to say this but americans appear to be so full of thenselves they cannot see anything beyond their borders.

Terrorism in europe is old, we have/had the IRA, ETA, the Red Brigades ...

Terrorist is not just radical islamic groups, pity people cannot understand that.

Besides terrorism have its place it seens, nobody complained much about ETA during Franco time and IRA support in the USA always been quite high ... not to say how some countries support terrorist organizations for their own ends (need I remind of who trained Bin Landen? or how Israel inicial supported Hamas to undermine the Fatah?)

Principa Discordia · Jul 07, 2005, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Like I said, Tyil. Some people would see my point-of-view as "surrendering to terror", but I honestly don't care. I think that if peace can be made somehow it's worth a try.

Maybe I'm jaded, I don't know. I just think that as long as we take a "kill the damn terrorists" approach the circle of hate will never ever end.

EmperorTippy · Jul 07, 2005, 02:20 PM // 14:20

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...don070705.html

That is the artical that I looked at for the information on the bombing but all the american TV and radio stations are stating the same thing so I don't no if they all have bad information or you are just looking at outdated information.

This artical by BBC also says that there were only 4 explosions BTW.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4659093.stm

Tyil Thunder Arrow · Jul 07, 2005, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Principa Discordia

Like I said, Tyil. Some people would see my point-of-view as "surrendering to terror", but I honestly don't care. I think that if peace can be made somehow it's worth a try.

Maybe I'm jaded, I don't know. I just think that as long as we take a "kill the damn terrorists" approach the circle of hate will never ever end.

That's why countries like ours are great even with all the problems. We all have a right to believe what we wish and I would never look down on anyone for their beliefs, well unless they cause undo harm to others.

I thank god or who ever is out there every day that I live in a free society.

I think people have merit when they say Americans are Arogant cause we are.
We have always been that way and we won't change no matter what the world throws at us.

Semiotic · Jul 07, 2005, 02:27 PM // 14:27

I've just taken the time to Register on these forums (which I have been looking into over the last month or so) simply so I can reply to some of the people in this thread who have posted things which I find insensitive and near offensive.

There was no need for "Echo(Specs?)" to post "Welcome to the Fold" [Now deleted I notice, but a sample of the typical response from many Americans here so far] - clearly indicative that in his opinion now that the UK has suffered a terrorist tragedy we are inducted into some kind of 'club' - is he not aware of the issues the UK has had to deal with for years as many other people have posted in this thread? I resent any attempt by an American to somehow validate this attack by drawing direct comparisons with the tragedy of the Twin Towers. Similarly somebody hinting about IRA sympathies is certainly not welcome here.

Fine: Speculate about causes and consequences, but please dont take the arrogant supposition that the US has suffered a great tragedy and this somehow brings London 'into line'. Likewise please dont bring misplaced IRA sympathies into this as they are totally unfounded and unnecessary.

---------------------------------------

IMO lock this thread because for people who have strong ties to London it can cause offence and upset.

Principa Discordia · Jul 07, 2005, 02:27 PM // 14:27

I just think the "us or them" attitude isn't going to solve it. It's been tried, people are still dying over it.

Pevil Lihatuh · Jul 07, 2005, 02:27 PM // 14:27

the way i see terrorism, is that no matter what you do, it'll exist. You can kill every last member of Al-Queda. Great, no more them. Wait a minute... sons, grandsons, brothers, nephews of the people who were members... even just friends or neighbours of them... they'll see the death of their friends and loved ones. They start to hate US/UK, and look. A new terrorist group is born.

Or a group of americans/english will think "hang on, why are we going over there killing people". Next thing their innocent protests to pull out are having no effect and they resort to more... obvious means. You can never stamp terrorism out. It's in our hearts. It's like trying to stamp murder out, no matter WHAT you do, even have the death penalty, someone, somewhere is going to try and get away with it. All you can do is hope to protect your family against it.

We in the UK/US just better pray to god that the rest of the world doesn't ever get fed up with us throwing our weight around and looking into other countries business. Because if the rest of the world ever decided to wage war on us for pushing our beliefs/laws on them, we'd be in trouble. Serious trouble.

EmperorTippy · Jul 07, 2005, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Principa Discordia

Like I said, Tyil. Some people would see my point-of-view as "surrendering to terror", but I honestly don't care. I think that if peace can be made somehow it's worth a try.

Maybe I'm jaded, I don't know. I just think that as long as we take a "kill the damn terrorists" approach the circle of hate will never ever end.

I see were your views are coming from but this is the only real problem that I see with them: Terrorist 'A' bombs a building and says more bombings will come unless you leave Iraq. You leave Iraq. Terrorist 'A' sees this and decides that he wants you to do something else. As his bombing worked last time he tries it again because it got the result that he wanted before. The cycle continues and the more you capulate to the demands of the terrorist the harder it will be to get them to stop if you ever decided that enough is enough and start fighting back or not capulating. Imagine 99 succesful bombings gegtting the desired effect on the governments policys and then 1 bombing that didn't get the desired effect. That is still 99% effective (More effective than soap is at killing germs yet we still use soap because it works 98% of the time).

Sorry if this wasn't very clear.

Semiotic · Jul 07, 2005, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Principa Discordia

Like I said, Tyil. Some people would see my point-of-view as "surrendering to terror", but I honestly don't care. I think that if peace can be made somehow it's worth a try.

Maybe I'm jaded, I don't know. I just think that as long as we take a "kill the damn terrorists" approach the circle of hate will never ever end.

/agree
Violence breeds violence. Someone should tell Bush and Blair that you CANT SHOOT AN IDEOLOGY WITH BULLETS. The way to kill an ideology is through education.

Pevil Lihatuh · Jul 07, 2005, 02:31 PM // 14:31

33 fatalities are now confirmed in London.

Principa Discordia · Jul 07, 2005, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmperorTippy

Terrorist 'A' sees this and decides that he wants you to do something else. As his bombing worked last time he tries it again because it got the result that he wanted before. The cycle continues and the more you capulate to the demands of the terrorist the harder it will be to get them to stop if you ever decided that enough is enough and start fighting back or not capulating.

Your post was clear, but this is the only thing I disagree with in it. You are assuming that the "terrorists" just want to control us, but look what happened when Spain capitulated after the Madrid bombings, they haven't had to put up with any of this since.

It's a long shot, and I probably am completely jaded and maybe dillusional, but I think that "the terrorists" just want to get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

I'm not saying we should give in and do what they want, just that maybe there's an alternate solution than standing up and saying "hah, I don't think so" every time we get bombed. We've done the fighting back thing for years now, it's obviously not working.

Tyil Thunder Arrow · Jul 07, 2005, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semiotic

Likewise please dont bring misplaced IRA sympathies into this as they are totally unfounded and unnecessary.

---------------------------------------

IMO lock this thread because for people who have strong ties to London it can cause offence and upset.

first of all there were no sympathies there just saying my family bein Irish made it touchy.

secondly it doesn't need closed if people are discussing rationally and not makin unfounded accusations.

Semiotic · Jul 07, 2005, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyil Thunder Arrow

first of all there were no sympathies there just saying my family bein Irish made it touchy.

secondly it doesn't need closed if people are discussing rationally and not makin unfounded accusations.

Its something I just dont want to hear right now, understandably I would think. Start an "Are the IRA right?" thread and Ill go and post there with you.

Jaythen Tyradel · Jul 07, 2005, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Principa Discordia

Your post was clear, but this is the only thing I disagree with in it. You are assuming that the "terrorists" just want to control us, but look what happened when Spain capitulated after the Madrid bombings, they haven't had to put up with any of this since.

It's a long shot, and I probably am completely jaded and maybe dillusional, but I think that "the terrorists" just want to get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

The only possilbe idea I can come up with is that by using terror violence on citizens, the one's responsible scare the citizens of that country to react back upon the government and leaders to do something or stop whatever they are doing which caused the terrorist to act.
So, in response to your post about them wanting us out of Iraq and Afghanistan , it is highly likely that is what they are trying to do.
However, even if we were to pull everything out of the middle east that might upsets the terrorits from that region, who says that will truly stop them from continuting?

EmperorTippy · Jul 07, 2005, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pevil Lihatuh

the way i see terrorism, is that no matter what you do, it'll exist. You can kill every last member of Al-Queda. Great, no more them. Wait a minute... sons, grandsons, brothers, nephews of the people who were members... even just friends or neighbours of them... they'll see the death of their friends and loved ones. They start to hate US/UK, and look. A new terrorist group is born.

Or a group of americans/english will think "hang on, why are we going over there killing people". Next thing their innocent protests to pull out are having no effect and they resort to more... obvious means. You can never stamp terrorism out. It's in our hearts. It's like trying to stamp murder out, no matter WHAT you do, even have the death penalty, someone, somewhere is going to try and get away with it. All you can do is hope to protect your family against it.

We in the UK/US just better pray to god that the rest of the world doesn't ever get fed up with us throwing our weight around and looking into other countries business. Because if the rest of the world ever decided to wage war on us for pushing our beliefs/laws on them, we'd be in trouble. Serious trouble.

Um. I don't want to start a debate that is off topic in this thread so either PM me if you want to continue or start a thread on this but lets not take over this thread with off topic posts.

If the rest of the world fought a guriella war you are right the US with or without the UK would be defeated. But if a conventinal war was fought the U.S. Millitarys conservitive estimate for how long and who would win a non-nuclear, non-gurellia war is that the U.S. millitary would defeat every single country in the world without us or anyone else using nuclear weapons within 3 weeks.

This is something that no one seems to realize: The U.S. has never fought a total war for its survival or a war with almost total polular support which is what a world vs. the U.S. war would generate. We have been 'liberators' and 'peacekeepers' recently but we have never used our millitary power to utterly destroy an entire nation. We have never gone after dams and power plants, never destoryed cities, never gone after civilian targets, never done all we could. The U.S. can kill 10,000 tanks on a field spread over miles of land with a single plane dropping no individial explosive larger than a hand grenade.

I am not condoning this or attempting to sound arrorgant but the U.S. millitary, as it was restructered after WW2, was never constructed for being the most effective in the kind of wars/police actions that it has fought in. It is made for being able to utterly destroy any country in as little time as possible and with as few American casualtys as possible.

Again I don't mean to be off topic and I am not stating my oppinion in this post. I am stating the pentagons most recent assement of a total world war against the U.S. and based on my conversations on this topic with various U.S. Generals and Millitary leaders (My next door neighbor works at the pentagon in the planning department, he is an airforce general). And on my study of world history (one of my faviorte topics along with politics)

Principa Discordia · Jul 07, 2005, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmperorTippy

But if a conventinal war was fought the U.S. Millitarys conservitive estimate for how long and who would win a non-nuclear, non-gurellia war is that the U.S. millitary would defeat every single country in the world without us or anyone else using nuclear weapons within 3 weeks.

Not being funny, but this "conservative" estimate is absolute crap. Just having forces occupying Afghanistan and Iraq is already spreading U.S. forces thin, anyone who says otherwise is kidding themself. The U.S. military could not occupy the world, especially not within three weeks.

Hoyt · Jul 07, 2005, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Terrorism is a mean-spirited lonely child killing small animals to make himself feel strong.

For everyone affected, directly and indirectly, I am deeply & profoundly sorry.

Jaythen Tyradel · Jul 07, 2005, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semiotic

/agree
Violence breeds violence. Someone should tell Bush and Blair that you CANT SHOOT AN IDEOLOGY WITH BULLETS. The way to kill an ideology is through education.

Its not just Bush. From the terroists leader to the Leaders of the world all need to realize that idea. One person changing thier ways doesnt mean that everyone else will follow or agree to thier change.

To keep with the original intention of the thread, My condolences to the people of England and what has happened. I have some online friends and real world friends who are over there right now and I hope they are ok.

Pevil Lihatuh · Jul 07, 2005, 02:58 PM // 14:58

I dont want any topic to do with terrorism. Right now I find it incredibly stupid that people are getting wrapped up in whether their country is right or wrong. To someone, somewhere, everyone is right, and everyone is wrong. Lets just focus on the news of the bombings and hope that someone can post this tragedy is over soon. And lets leave the IRA out of this. Not all Irish are in the IRA Semiotic and no one said their family were members of the IRA so lets just leave it. With these bombings its clear there is enough hatred in this world without arguing amongst ourselves on a GAMING forum.

There's a conference on the BBC news right now, with the heads of the transport and emergency services. Someone just came up with the question "Were children among the fatalities" but no one is saying anything yet.

EmperorTippy · Jul 07, 2005, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Principa Discordia

Not being funny, but this "conservative" estimate is absolute crap. Just having forces occupying Afghanistan and Iraq is already spreading U.S. forces thin, anyone who says otherwise is kidding themself. The U.S. military could not occupy the world, especially not within three weeks.

The U.S. isn't talking about occupying the rest of the world the estimate is for essentialy destroying every countrys millitary and civilian leadership and resources. This is exactly what my post ment by saying "We have been 'liberators' and 'peacekeepers' recently but we have never used our millitary power to utterly destroy an entire nation.". You are exactly right if the U.S. decided to occupy the other countrys but the wouldn't be doing that.

And I stated that if you wanted to continue this start a thread on it or PM me as it is mildy of topic for this thread.