Curse

Acan Vishnu · Jul 13, 2005, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skean Dau

There was this kid, pretty smart but with little work ethic...

Long story short, he (I) now own one of these retail outlets. I worked hard and was rewarded. Never used my degree, but hey, I can tell what colour eyes your kids will have!

He actually was talking about himself, MuKen (unless their referring to an entirely different story, at which point thats just too conveluded for me to deal with :P ), but thats really besides the point... this topic has been meandering through alot of people's personal opinions and beliefs, which in and of itself is fine, but one thing that really needs to be considered is legality. When all is said and done their still trading in-game currency with real world currency, which in many cases is considered an illegal action regardless of how you dress it up.

Do I see any game developers doing much of anything about it in the real world? Nope. To my thinking its just not plausible, but that doesn't change the fact that its illegal.

Keesa · Jul 13, 2005, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Actually, the story was not hypothetical, although it was at first presented that way. While Skean did first respond as if Edge was attacking him personally rather than making a very broad and sneering generalization, the language and postures adopted by both gentlemen has been mutually confrontational.

Skean Dau · Jul 13, 2005, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge Martinez

Once again I ask you to go back and read again. Comprehension while reading is the key. I did not include you with anything. If anything, you included yourself. As far as my rich getting richer comment, what is wrong with it? Did I say it was wrong? Did I say they shouldn't? No, I did not. What is your problem? Why are you taking this so personally? I notice you bring up pork rinds quite often. Your whole attitude is pretty sad, but perhaps you feel better after typing it. If so, enjoy the day!

So you are trying to claim to all these intelligent posters that the comment:

Quote:

As much as we complain, those people who work at our McDonalds for a minimum wage that has not changed in almost a decade are also making some rich guy richer.

Is not implying that the rich getting richer is not a bad thing?? Oh you must think we are all stupid.

Also, I am not taking any of this personnally, don't flatter yourself. Although you tried to take it to a personal level by the "whoop dee do" comment.

And to the previous poster, the story was about me (I used the he(I) comment), but no where did it say I was rich, the woefully illinformed Edge made that leap since he assumes all success stories equate to the rich exploiting the downtrodden.

As far as my attitude being sad, this I don't get. My attitude is that hard working people should be rewarded. My attitude is that, in most cases, people should blame their lot in life on themselves. My attitude is that no one should every be exploited, no one should ever be forced to do anything against their will. So if that is sad, I would love to hear your attitude, which by the way must not contain anything I said in this post since you have stated mine is poor.

Keesa · Jul 13, 2005, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acan Vishnu

He actually was talking about himself, MuKen (unless their referring to an entirely different story, at which point thats just too conveluded for me to deal with :P ), but thats really besides the point... this topic has been meandering through alot of people's personal opinions and beliefs, which in and of itself is fine, but one thing that really needs to be considered is legality. When all is said and done their still trading in-game currency with real world currency, which in many cases is considered an illegal action regardless of how you dress it up.

Do I see any game developers doing much of anything about it in the real world? Nope. To my thinking its just not plausible, but that doesn't change the fact that its illegal.

Actually, there is no inherent illegality in selling an intangible commodity except as it violates EULA/ToS, and even there it's been argued in many civil courts in both directions--whether virtual property belongs to the end user or to the company who created the access to said property.

Is it inherently wrong? That's really the question with which most people have been concerning themselves here.

Acan Vishnu · Jul 13, 2005, 04:04 PM // 16:04

I think the thread got a little clouded with whether or not it was morally right for the owners of these operations to pay their workers less than what they might be worth. Then of course you have all sorts of comments and ideas about capitalism, communism and all sorts of other -isms that seem to have come out of the woodworks -- But hey, thats cool, its called a discussion and its bound to wander a bit.

As far as its legality your are right in that there is a lot of grey area involved, people have found several loopholes in the system that let them get by the letter of the law. But violating the terms of agreement is an illegal action, or you would see people trying to appeal being permenantly banned after being caught. They know what they did (are doing) is against the rules, but they don't care. Some online sellers don't even bother with the "You are paying for the time spent in obtaining this item, not the item" bit -- they just don't care. Its not exactly likely that their going to be prosecuted over doing this.

I guess my main point is that while it is sad that some people do take advantage of the under privileged, that it wouldn't matter even if they were being paid extremely well (even by "our" standards). They are still using methods against the policy of the games they are using, and so should be shut down whenever possible. This is true even if your don't consider selling online items illegal, because they are using bots to get the items.

Keesa · Jul 13, 2005, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Well said.

nineinchnails · Jul 13, 2005, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

Don't take me as an arrogant guy who wants to teach anyone anything, but you're completely wrong on the interpretation of capitalism. You don't have a different opinion, it's just wrong in its essence.

The poor, on the other hand, was the one to blame. An unlucky person, dressed with rags was also considered lazy and not worthy of God's love. Greed was totally out of this picture, because capitalists re-invested most of their profit. It was just work, hard work and the wish to achieve success.

Greed came later, by the people who exploited this system in an unpredicted way.

I don't take you as arrogant, but you didn't teach anyone anything either. Never did I refer to how Capitalism started or how it was intended. I simply described how it actually functions. My point is still valid. While other economic systems may have good intentions, they just don't work as well in the real world because of human nature. Any system created will be exploited in unpredicted ways. Human nature. That's why we have spam and viruses rampant on the Internet and hacking/bots in gaming systems.

Again, I am not saying that Capitalism is ideal, but it works better than any other system ever tried. We are way off topic now, so let's let this die.

MuKen · Jul 13, 2005, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acan Vishnu

He actually was talking about himself, MuKen (unless their referring to an entirely different story, at which point thats just too conveluded for me to deal with :P )

Ah, it seems you are correct. My mistake

midnyte13 · Jul 13, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56

farming....damn...i have a lvel 14 w/e and a lvl 12 r/n....ive nevr had more than 1.5 plat on me at any given time...where can i get some of this loot?

Divinitys Creature · Jul 13, 2005, 07:32 PM // 19:32

There is a similar post or a few over at TGH and I had to point out that we don't know what the salary is like there and living costs etc. Glad to see so many people are aware of this here and pointed that out.

Shadowdaemon · Jul 13, 2005, 07:45 PM // 19:45

i would be glad to play games all day and get paid, and unless they kidnap the kids or something, then they arent really doing it against their will, unless their parents make them or something

also, god needs to increase the drops of chinese kids so we can have videogame sweatshops too, but just kidding

Edge Martinez · Jul 13, 2005, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skean Dau

So you are trying to claim to all these intelligent posters that the comment:

Quote:

As much as we complain, those people who work at our McDonalds for a minimum wage that has not changed in almost a decade are also making some rich guy richer.

Is not implying that the rich getting richer is not a bad thing?? Oh you must think we are all stupid.

Actually no dude. I don't think anyone is stupid. Taken in context, in regards to the OP, the first part, "As much as we complain", was referring to folks who complain about these foreign folks who only make $.56/hr. By this point, I believe Algren had already pointed out what that equates to in their own country... which really did not seem so terrible.

Then I followed with, "those people who work at our McDonalds for a minimum wage that has not changed in almost a decade are also making some rich guy richer.". This was just a comparison to our own standards (in the US) as, in this case, it seemed like a bunch of us were pointing the finger. I never said it was a bad thing. I was just making the comparison. Since you used yourself, I'll use myself as an example to clarify and prove what I'm saying. In the eight years since college at my job, my hourly pay has increased just over $9 in COLA's. Of course this has to do with inflation and especially the area I'm in, but basically just from cost of living adjustments, almost two minimum wages have been added to my paycheck in eight years just because some companies who want to keep their workers recognize that the price of food and gas and other necessities only goes up. Meanwhile, someone in the same area I'm in who takes a job at McDonalds will only still be making a minimum wage that was in place before I got my job. They may get raises now and then, but it's nothing on the level of inflation. We both know that most big businesses judge their efficiency on earnings, which is a direct result of other metrics. They also expect better productivity, resulting in better earnings each year. So in the end, the operator of a McDonalds does end up getting marginally richer every year, while the minimum wage has remained the same... just like the people paying the farmers in China.

Now all that said, all my original post was meant to say was that perhaps we should not be so quick to judge these guys who game for a living, as they may be better off than us. I hope this can clarify and end our little dispute here. I got nothing against you man. But to get back to the first post of this thread, I'd have to see proof that these people are being taken advantage of over there before saying what is happening is wrong.

Skean Dau · Jul 14, 2005, 07:05 PM // 19:05

kk...I get ya now....thanks for the explanation.....We agree on the facts actually, we just don't seem to agree on the philosopy of owners/managers relationship with workers I guess.