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Jul 12, 2005, 05:20 PM // 17:20
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#21 |
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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2005
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just to put this entire thing into perspective....given that alot of us are unaware of the cost of livnig anywhere outside of where we live....$150 US Dollars in Japan is 16,653.81 Japanese Yen....the average japanese family could eat for a month off 9,316 yen. That includes..
White Bread Eggs Whole Milk Meiji Sliced Cheese (Pkg of 10 slices) 190g (6.7oz.) Head Cabbage Ground Round (Low fat hamburger) 240gm (8.4 oz.) Bacon 150g (5.3 oz) (10 slices) Cucumbers, about 6" long, 1" diameter Tomatoes 4 small-sized (about 2" diameter) Irish Potatoes Package of 4 small potatoes Tofu 1 pack (330g, 11.6oz) Spanish Onions pkg of 3 Fresh Chicken Breasts (2) Salted Salmon Slices (3 slices) 3 slices, about 2 1/2" X 4" Kirin Beer 1,000ml (33.81 oz) 505 Rice from Japan 10kg (22 lbs) Tuna fish 165gm (5.8oz) cans Mayonnaise 500gm Macaroni 200 gm (7oz) Carrots 3 medium-sized carrots Soy Sauce 1000ml (33.8 oz) Lettuce 1 head Bananas 4 fingers Pork Thigh Block Sliced this would leave 7,337.81 or approximately $66 USD Yen left for everything else.....and the economy in Japan is FAR better than the economy in ALOT of the countries these "sweatshops" are in. No I do not condone this type of business....but alot of these people are making more than enough money to live off. |
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Jul 12, 2005, 05:24 PM // 17:24
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#22 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jun 2005
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What's with all this demand for stopping these activities? I understand that people feel bad for the workers, but the thing to feel bad about is that they are so poor, not that they managed to land these farming jobs. Stop the farming jobs? Wtf for? These people are happy to get a job with which they can feed their family, get a place to live, and all without physical labor. It's the best option they have, why would you take it away?
You think these workers are gonna applaud you if you show up one day and shut down the farm? Hell no. It's like if you see a homeless guy in the city saying he'll dance for food, then when somebody offers him a half a hotdog for a dance, you slap the hotdog away and say the guy's exploiting him. Then you walk away without offering the homeless guy anything yourself (effectively robbing him of half a hotdog, jerk) The solution to the "problem" is to give more to the people, until these farms are no longer an attractive option, not to take away the most attractive option they have right now. What, don't have enough or can't be bothered to take care of all the poor people in the world? Then stfu and let them at least keep what jobs they have. Last edited by MuKen; Jul 12, 2005 at 05:27 PM // 17:27.. |
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Jul 12, 2005, 05:25 PM // 17:25
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#23 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NC
Guild: DKL
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I guess before I pass judgement, I'd need to know what $.56 to $1.00 an hour in China is comparable to in terms of my own quality of life here in the States. If it is a reasonable salary, compared to our minimum wage (which I think is a farce, but for the sake of comparison...), then I really can't fault it. As much as we complain, those people who work at our McDonalds for a minimum wage that has not changed in almost a decade are also making some rich guy richer. And we do not call these sweatshops.
Now if that salary ($.56/hr) does fall into the range of a true sweatshop, then I am certainly against it. As for the morality of farming on video games? I can see exploiting video games taking a backseat to keeping one's family fed. I myself may not like it, but I'm certainly no angel to be preaching to others. EDIT: And while I posted, Algren answered the initial question I had. Last edited by Edge Martinez; Jul 12, 2005 at 05:28 PM // 17:28.. |
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Jul 12, 2005, 05:26 PM // 17:26
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#24 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Part of the problem is the tendency is for the relatively wealthy (particularly americans) to ignore the realities in very poor countries. an reporter tends to go to a poor country and go "wow, you're working 12 hours a day and getting paid $.50 per hour."
whereas the alternative for the worker in question is something like picking through the garbage yard for scraps or doing back-breaking labor in the rice paddies for $.05 per hour? the workers in this case is likely to think that having a job in a shaded office, sitting down and just stare at a screen for the equivalent of a median (or better) wage in their native country is a cush job. anyone who thinks otherwise should really read "Thunder from the East: Portrait of a Rising Asia" by Nicholas Kristof -- it's an excellent book that will likely open your eyes. |
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Jul 12, 2005, 05:28 PM // 17:28
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#25 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
Indifference. We're not talking about being "evil" or "wicked", nothing like that. Someone who exploits others' labor because they live in a under-developed area is not an ogre, a terrible human being. He's just assuming "hey, if I weren't here, they would be paid even less, or not at all. I'm bringing employment, I'm offering them a living". He just doesn't care about the fact that he's actually robbing them of their labor, underpaying them, and perpetuating an exploit that is hundreds years old. And in the name of god, don't mistake me for a Marxist. There's nothing atrocious in this. I don't think that "businessman" will burn in hell. The fact is, this attitude multiplied 1 billion times becomes something else. At that point, yes, it kills people, and you just wonder "hey, how could that happen?", while you, unaware, fed that mechanism. I think that the typical line "I don't care"/"It's not my business" is getting old fast. Sometimes people should care. Yes, it is an ethical statement. I'm betting I'll have a lot of nihilistic tough talking as an answer, but maybe I'm just pessimist. |
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Jul 12, 2005, 05:32 PM // 17:32
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#26 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2005
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The actual problem here is the poor economies. The people are willing to work for $150 a month, with 12 hour days and no holidays/weekends because that is the best that they can do. Other jobs are either not available, do not pay as much, or require alot more hard work (such as manual labor). These people are not slaves and they can quit the job if they want to. I do not like the practice of selling "gold" online, but the article does give a one sided view of the issue.
A lot of people here who are used to the ways of the richer countries do not understand what is happening. Sure, Child Labor laws are good. However, in these poor places if a kid does work, the kid and his family doesn't eat. Minimum wage laws do not work in these places because there are so many unemployed people that there are so many people who are willing to work illegally (under minimum wage) even if such laws exist. It would become impossible to enforce the minimum wage (if you start arresting the employers then there would be absolutely no jobs at all for anybody). This ends up creating a downward spiral because one guy who employs many people will make $1 million but only pay $10k in salaries to his employees. He could easily increase wages ten times and he would still be walking away with $900k, but there is no reason for him to do so. He can literally keep 99% of his earnings and nobody would complain because they are that desperate for anything they can get. As people become more poor, it becomes easier to exploit them. There is a huge gray area that gets created now. As a rich nation, we both create jobs for them and create exploits for them. If we did not demand Nike shoes, people would not be working in sweatshops, but they would probably be unemployed instead. We do demand Nike shoes, which leads to jobs being created (which should be a good thing) however all the money ends up in the hands of one person, the shop owner, so the people stays poor and exploitable, because they are willing to do anything to survive. A better distribution of the wealth generated at these sweatshops is what would be the answer (if the shop only kept say $500k of the $1 million earned and his employees salaries total to $500k) however, because the people are too poor to form unions or demand better pay (the owner will find some new guy in a second if someone tried to ask for more) this won't happen. The true moral argument is that people in richer nations are willing to throw away money on virtual items rather than help people that are very poor. Last edited by noblepaladin; Jul 12, 2005 at 05:37 PM // 17:37.. |
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Jul 12, 2005, 05:35 PM // 17:35
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#27 | |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: May 2005
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Guild: Me No Lickey Guilds!!
Profession: Mo/W
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Jul 12, 2005, 05:37 PM // 17:37
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#28 |
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Banned
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: In my head
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Yeah, I certainly don't want to shut down any business that these people are working in to feed their families. I do think that the attitude that it's necessary for one group of people to be down trodden to sustain another wealthier class is what's the problem. Not all of you have this attitude but a couple of you do.
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Jul 12, 2005, 05:39 PM // 17:39
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#29 |
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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2005
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fact remains....they are being paid well. $150 US Dollars in third world countries is ALOT of money. They are not being exploited anymore than the teenager working at CVS for 7 bucks an hour is. Cost of living is MUCH MUCH lower in these countries. $150 doesn't seem like alot of money to you because you live in Canada or America or Europe where the cost of living is so outrageously high that you need to make $50,000 + to afford to live each year....these people can literally live as well as you do(making $50,000) off $1800/year.
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Jul 12, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42
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#30 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: In my head
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Quote:
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Jul 12, 2005, 05:47 PM // 17:47
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#31 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Jul 2005
Guild: Pillers of Darkness [Dark]
Profession: N/Mo
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Correct - we here in the lap of luxury can make our little motions of pity - "Oh my, $150 a month, the poor dears." $150 US per month is a lot of money in places where the economy isn't blown all to hell, like here.
The current rant-source of choice is jobs being pushed over to India as fast as we can make 'em - and for good reason. We pay them $11 an hour to do a job that, here in the US, you'd have to get paid $25 an hour or more, and what we never seem to notice is that our $11 an hour equates to a two-bedroom apartment in the good part of town. In China, where the economy is severely depressed, $0.56 is worth a LOT more than we make it out to be. Sure, it's a damn shame. But it's worth it to them. And personally? Allow me to offer you the choice of three jobs, all at the same pay rate. 1) Cobbling. That's making shoes, dealing with glue fumes and rubber and raw fingers. 2) Dressmaking. That's dealing with fabric, needle punctures (in a land of few antibiotics to boot), steam and respiratory problems from cloth fibers and dust. 3) Attending to an MMO bot. You sit in front of a computer. The worst you have to deal with is eye strain. Sure, it's warm, but so is everywhere else. None of them are occupations I'd want, but then again, choice number four just might be death by starvation. That article opened my eyes. I have more respect for g-farmers than I did before; after all, my game 'getting ruined' is helping to feed some poor Chinese family, and far be it from me to interfere with that any longer. The part of it that's unfair: the managers can buy things like new houses while the sweatshop farmers get just enough to support a family on. They oughta be better compensated than that; but at this point I don't think I'd want to shut it down entirely. I wouldn't want some high-and-mighty naiive ignorant profiteer making me leave my cushy (but boring) desk job to go work in a friggin mine. -sam Last edited by samarium; Jul 12, 2005 at 05:51 PM // 17:51.. |
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Jul 12, 2005, 05:48 PM // 17:48
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#32 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Quote:
well...where I live you can't buy a house for less than $300,000...one bedroom apartments go for $1900-2100/month. You can't shop for a family of four for less than $200 bucks ever two weeks....making $50,000 a year in boston is literally nothing...you're barely scraping buy....Like I showed in another post an average Japanese Family can eat for a month off approximately 9,000 yen...$150 US Dollars is approximately 16,000 Yen....leaving them just over 7,000 yen for everything else. They are not being paid poorly relative to the country they are living in.... |
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Jul 12, 2005, 05:49 PM // 17:49
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#33 | |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: May 2005
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Guild: Me No Lickey Guilds!!
Profession: Mo/W
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Quote:
What is wrong with being rich? Or getting richer???? People really have to stop blaming their lot in life on everyone but themselves! You think the people at McDonalds are being treated unfairly??? Was the hospital not hiring Brain surgeons this week??? While that last comment is dripping with sarcasm...let me tell you a story: There was this kid, pretty smart but with little work ethic...got good grades and worked at a retail store for minimum wage all through high school and university. Got an Honours degree in Genetics. Could not get a job in his field so he stuck with the retail outfit. He was a bitter individual, who was making peanuts, but had been brought up to work hard and keep his head down and good things will come. Long story short, he (I) now own one of these retail outlets. I worked hard and was rewarded. Never used my degree, but hey, I can tell what colour eyes your kids will have! Now I have those same people working for me, at close to minimum wage to start. Those that complain will stay close to minimum wage or be convinced that they might prefer to work elsewhere. Those that contribute, that want to be part of the solution, that realize their lot in life is there own making and can be changed with some effort (if they wish it to be)....will be rewarded. I find it is very popular for those with little ambition to scream the "whoa is me" chant, not just for themselves, but for others since they feel it somehow validates thier lack of success. They are horrors in our world that are beyond imagination, but rich people getting as rich as they can through legal means and hard work is not one of them. It might piss you off, or make you jealous, but lets not cloud the issue. Last edited by Skean Dau; Jul 12, 2005 at 05:53 PM // 17:53.. |
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Jul 12, 2005, 05:49 PM // 17:49
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#34 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
If he was to pay an honest salary to bulgarian people (there are fixed minimum wages and so on, but the international community is at best a sleeping creature), he would just lose profit, but we're not saying he wouldn't make any. Bulgarian people would have more money to spend, so that, very slowly, the economical mechanism would start moving. This is basic Keynes, nothing complicated. The problem is: there's no such thing as "ethic" in politics or economics. Most of us won't admit a system is showing is age until they're kicked in the face by the events. Capitalism is failing mostly because people are exploiting other people, and as years pass by, this economical system is not ensuring what he was to in the first place: a worldwide wealth. |
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Jul 12, 2005, 05:58 PM // 17:58
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#35 |
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Banned
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: In my head
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What Samurium stated in the last part of his post and Mormegil's recent post state exactly what is wrong with the whole situation. These people aren't being paid a fair share of the profits that these businesses make... it doesnt matter if they're being paid relatively well, it's exactly these kinds of business practices that help keep their economy so poor.
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Jul 12, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03
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#36 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Quote:
they have no education they have no qualifications they have made no financial support to the business they make no financial endeavor INTO the business. why exactly are they getting a fair share? employees of a company DO NOT get a fair share of the business...they are compenstated for their time and their contribution...but they don't get a fair share....most AMERICAN employees don't get a fair share of the company they work for. |
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Jul 12, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06
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#37 | |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: May 2005
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Guild: Me No Lickey Guilds!!
Profession: Mo/W
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Quote:
You want more pay? Get a better education, get some skill training, find a niche market and run with it (see original post!!). But that wont happen, it's WAY easier to sit on the couch, eating pork rinds, watching Oprah and blaming Donald Trump for your lot in life. |
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Jul 12, 2005, 06:12 PM // 18:12
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#38 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: May 2005
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I agree, workers are paid relatively well, but i don't think that's the main issue here. I mean that is how global economy works, you find something cheap (chinese labor) and sell it (fruits of that labor) somewhere else. I really think working 12 hours with a computer is better than with sneakers.
What outrages me is that someone makes so much money by cheating. I think this is mainly fault of game makers for making MMOMRPG so damn difficult and everlasting, of course they want to keep people drawn in as long as possible and give as little as possible progress. So, people are willing to pay real money to advance in game and of course there are people willing to sell. Anyway reasons could go on and on. I will just offer what I think can be a partial solution. I think game creators should sell game money!!! They could sell it at much cheaper prices and therefore put cheaters out of business. There are some inherent problems with game manufacturer selling game money though. |
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Jul 12, 2005, 06:16 PM // 18:16
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#39 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
1- While it's generally true that people in under-developed country have little or no qualification and thus are less attractive workers, european/american people in the same situation are payed 7 times more. This is what I call exploitation. No one is saying we should pay them high, unreasonable salaries just because they're "poor and unfortunate", but underpaying them is unethical. 2- These people don't really have a choice. If you establish a factory in Asia, Africa, or in the ex-communist Europe and look for workers, you're the one who decides the price of labor. They're in no position to negotiate. You have powers similar to those of the ancients feudal lords. Since they have no choice, if you pay ridiculously low salaries, you're violating their rights, plain and simple, to make more profit. We see that everywhere, everyday. It is indifference, not cruelty. 3- In most of the cases, they can't get a better education, or can't afford to pay for it, because YOU are not paying them enough. You are the one who's keeping their qualifications mediocre or non-existent. And no, they don't eat pork grinds, I assure you. Last edited by Mormegil; Jul 12, 2005 at 06:18 PM // 18:18.. |
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Jul 12, 2005, 06:18 PM // 18:18
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#40 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Quote:
If they can't, then they can't, and that's simply the disadvantage of not having material wealth: you don't have as much ability to shape the world to the way you want it. But going from "I want these poor people to have more" to "Let's force the people who have more to give it to the poor people, since I don't have enough to give them" is the same as stealing. You take away wealth from others so you can do with it what you want instead of what they want. |
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