Curse

Xue Yi Liang · Sep 17, 2005, 04:22 PM // 16:22

It seems like there's at least a couple and probably more doctors in training on this forum. To you I post this message.

Before I started medical school, someone tried to discourage me by saying "it's a looong road. Don't do it." But those words came as a challenge to me - so I'd never forgive myself if I hadn't tried.
Years later it's no surprise to know that he was right. That being said, I want to pass on that message to those of you considering the medical profession: it's a loooong road.

You already have a sense of the demands of medical school and residency training. But here's what to expect when you're done - 7+ years later.

By the time you finish your training (especially if out of state) you will find yourself feeling a lot like Rip Van Winkle. All your friends are employed with salary, pensions and a retirement plan. They have spouse, children, home and posessions. While you've been training they've been able to work their way up through promotion to earn a salary comparable to what you're about to start with now.

You, on the other hand emerge in a ton of debt, starting in one of the few professions whose annual income has been declining over time - where everyone assumes you have more $$$ than you do and each patient in your practice wants access to you 24hr a day. A profession where you can receive 30 phone calls in a day and aren't reimbursed for any single one of them.

If you're starting up a practice by yourself - you're looking at enough overhead to keep you eating bread and water for a very long time (maybe even indefinitely) and an investment of personal time that will make your 90 hr/week residency schedule seem like a vacation.

If you join a multispecialty group you'll have the pleasure of being the FNG - so expect to work on every major holiday for the next 2 years and take more than your share of overnight calls. Plus I can guarantee your case load will be full of patients inherited from the other practitioners - you know, the ones that nobody else has the time/patience to manage effectively. And you have to put up with it until partnership which may or may not happen in 2+ years.

Medicine is a calling. If you do it for the $$$ you've just made a dumb investment. If it's for the prestige - that's a thing of the past. Even nurses know better than to take your BS if you're trying to impress them.

Congratulations. You'll have sacrificed a huge chunk of personal life, sweat, tears and inherited a gob of debt.

But in return you carry the knowlege, authority and means to help people who are in physical, psychological and emotional distress in a way that nobody else can. And, from personal experience, being the right person at the right time to save someone's life makes it all worth while.

Good Luck!

skimo · Sep 17, 2005, 04:25 PM // 16:25

thanks for the really depressing article...lolll

dansamy · Sep 17, 2005, 05:36 PM // 17:36

I loved your post, mostly because I'm in nursing school now. There's no way I'd ever go to med school. I can make almost as much money in less time as a nurse anesthetist.

Manderlock · Sep 17, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Jus become an RA, they get paid just as much as doctors. And they only need to go to school an extra 2 years.

sino-soviet · Sep 17, 2005, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Umm....how is being a doctor a bad financial investment? That I just can't see.

Polloloco3 · Sep 18, 2005, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang

It seems like there's at least a couple and probably more doctors in training on this forum. To you I post this message.

Before I started medical school, someone tried to discourage me by saying "it's a looong road. Don't do it." But those words came as a challenge to me - so I'd never forgive myself if I hadn't tried.
Years later it's no surprise to know that he was right. That being said, I want to pass on that message to those of you considering the medical profession: it's a loooong road.

You already have a sense of the demands of medical school and residency training. But here's what to expect when you're done - 7+ years later.

By the time you finish your training (especially if out of state) you will find yourself feeling a lot like Rip Van Winkle. All your friends are employed with salary, pensions and a retirement plan. They have spouse, children, home and posessions. While you've been training they've been able to work their way up through promotion to earn a salary comparable to what you're about to start with now.

You, on the other hand emerge in a ton of debt, starting in one of the few professions whose annual income has been declining over time - where everyone assumes you have more $$$ than you do and each patient in your practice wants access to you 24hr a day. A profession where you can receive 30 phone calls in a day and aren't reimbursed for any single one of them.

If you're starting up a practice by yourself - you're looking at enough overhead to keep you eating bread and water for a very long time (maybe even indefinitely) and an investment of personal time that will make your 90 hr/week residency schedule seem like a vacation.

If you join a multispecialty group you'll have the pleasure of being the FNG - so expect to work on every major holiday for the next 2 years and take more than your share of overnight calls. Plus I can guarantee your case load will be full of patients inherited from the other practitioners - you know, the ones that nobody else has the time/patience to manage effectively. And you have to put up with it until partnership which may or may not happen in 2+ years.

Medicine is a calling. If you do it for the $$$ you've just made a dumb investment. If it's for the prestige - that's a thing of the past. Even nurses know better than to take your BS if you're trying to impress them.

Congratulations. You'll have sacrificed a huge chunk of personal life, sweat, tears and inherited a gob of debt.

But in return you carry the knowlege, authority and means to help people who are in physical, psychological and emotional distress in a way that nobody else can. And, from personal experience, being the right person at the right time to save someone's life makes it all worth while.

Good Luck!

I was told that I would never make it by my dean. When I did make it into medical school I was told it was because I was Mexican. Well hell if I had to show up eating a taco and wearing a sombrero I would have.

I agree with you whole heartedly Xue, you have to be in it for the right reasons. When I first stepped into my classes I thought oh boy here it comes, only to find that its almost the same as any other classes! People like to say, "WOW med school, what is it like?!" I tell them its just school.

I always wanted to help people out ever since as long as I can remember. My mom always told me I was so good hearted to everyone and would make an amazing Doctor. I myself still have a good deal of education ahead of me, plus my residency still ahead of me. For now its just one day at a time, and making sure I keep focus on whats in store for the future.

To anyone wanting to be a doctor, or anything in the health field, do it because you want to help others. Money can not reward you as much as the gratitude you get from saving lives and knowing YOU made a difference. Do not let anyone tell you "you cant!".

Xue Yi Liang · Sep 18, 2005, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by sino-soviet

Umm....how is being a doctor a bad financial investment? That I just can't see.

It's not a bad investment.

But on the basis of pure investment one can do much better.

A graduate of Electrical Engineering with an average starting salary of $52,000 per year can start to pay off their loans. On the other hand, a pre-med graduate is looking at 4 more years of debt accumulation.

To quote from the New England Journal of Medicine regarding current cost of medical school training:
"The average tuition and fees at public medical schools during the 2003–2004 academic year amounted to $16,153, and the corresponding figure for private schools was $32,588.3 Adding $20,000 to $25,000 for living expenses, books, and equipment brings the estimated cost of four years of attendance to about $140,000 for public schools and $225,000 for private schools. "

I was about to crunch some numbers but I'm getting exhausted. Forgive me if this starts to ramble on a bit....

According to the AMA the medical school graduate in 2004 started his/her residency with more than $115,000 of debt on their back.

After 4 years of medical school comes residency training for about 3 years. In that time you'll start to earn a small salary but hardly enough to put a dent in your debt which continues to accrue over time. By the time you are ready to start making headway into your debt - you'll have a lot of momentum to counter....

Granted, it's not enough to make you poor. A physician will make a living, there's no doubt about that. But, factoring in the committment of time and energy you can't let your sole motivation be money.

This may confound your world view - but I know many nurses and nurse practitioners who enjoy a higher standard of living than many physicians in the same office. Most of them, after a shorter, less costly period of training, managed their income, invested in rental properties, found parallel complimentary jobs or subspecialized in the nursing field. Available to nurses is the flexibility of becoming pharmaceutical or biotech representatives as well.

Here's an example:

My brother constructs phone networks for small international companies. His virtue was his ability to negotiate salaries. At a time when people were dropping like flies in silicon valley - he was getting bonuses, stock options and competetive offers from other companies. Oddly, his undergraduate degree was in finance. But he worked, developed a palatte of skills and contacts, and honed his skills in the stock market. He had planned to get his MBA but now ... who needs it?

By the time I finished my medical training my brother had already been making a respectable 6 figure salary for a while. Half the time conducts business over his cellphone while he's out doing whatever he wants. He has a wife, 2 terrific kids, a Mercedes coupe and a Mercedes sedan. He just bought a 3 million dollar house in Palo Alto and is doing $400,000 worth of renovation on it.

In contrast, I emerged from training as a single man, with debt, a salary that's a fraction of my brothers and looking forward to longer, tougher work hours. ... oh and I have a car and a dog.

Lesson 1 - if you go into medicine, do it because you like it - not because you think it'll make you wealthy (once upon a time, that may have been the case, but those days are long gone)
Lesson 2 - income is not the key to wealth - it's investment and smart management of assets.

Xue Yi Liang · Sep 18, 2005, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dame&Beast

Xue~ do you need a hug and money? Or just a hug *grinz*

~ Dame

Since I broke up with my gf, I could use a good woman right now.

Old Dood · Sep 18, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Just rememeber to treat the Nursing staff with respect! My Wife has been a Nurse for over 25 years. In that time she has seen Doctors start out as Residents and later on after they finish that they become arrogent and think they are GOD. They forget that it was a good medical staff that actually helped them through the tough times. Not all Doctors do this. Usually it is the Specialists that become A-Holes. To be fair, not all Nurses are perfect either. They have had such a shortage of them that you can get a lazy/ignorant/stupid nurse if you are stuck in a hospital for any amount of time. You should see my wife go ballistic when there is a nurse not doing their job. She will bring them back to reality real fast!

My wife did many different functions as a nurse over the years. She was a S.I.C.U. nurse for 10 years. Now she is a coordinater for a team of Doctors at our city's largest hospital. It is a Hospitalist Team. It is a newer way of taking care of paitients. Her team of Docs always include her and ask her advice. They freely admit they would be lost without her. She has to spell EVERYTHING out when she takes a week off. They are a great group and I never have seen her happier in her profession. I am very proud of her, however, if I get sick you would think it would be great to have a wife that is a nurse. Well it is, but then she gets real tired of hearing me Whine.

I was in the hospital for an emergency surgery last year. While I was in, my wife's team of doctors took my case. The Hospitalists take your case and then they will bring in consults. This way THEY control your case, not the specialist. They are also there to see me everyday. Answer my questions. Save me money as well as the hospital. To many times a specialist will run tests that are not really needed. This cost money for me and the hospital. The Specialists get paid no matter what.

Also as a Doctor remember that we as regular people NEED pain management from time to time. My family doctor is like that. He knows that I have cronic pain all the time and makes sure I have the medications to take care of it. I can't stand it when a doctor will not give you a pain med because THEY are afraid to. I laugh when they try to give me Tylenol 3's. I look them in the eye and state what "I" want.