Curse

Thanas · Sep 01, 2005, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

Although I enjoyed reading that little sermon on the mountain, I have to say with all seriousness that everything you outlined is man-made in both interpretation, execution, and philosphy and, is therefore only real to people who subscribe to it. So the whole conversation has no meaning whatsoever.

Answer me this. Will the Sun rise and set every day?

Shadowdaemon · Sep 01, 2005, 10:15 AM // 10:15

actually the sun will stay where it is and burn, it doesnt really do any rising or setting.

Thanas · Sep 01, 2005, 10:53 AM // 10:53

This question wasn't aimed at you, but lets continue for fun anyway.

From most locations on the planets surface there is an apparent rising and setting. These events result in what we call day and night. And anyway motion is relative. For your information the sun is meant to osciallate and if you really want to be pedantic, the sun supposedly moves relative to our galaxy.

The answer you have given however is adequate for me to initialise the next line of questioning. And that is

Why will the sun carry on burning. How do you know this to be true?

Divinitys Creature · Sep 01, 2005, 11:05 AM // 11:05

The sun has been burnining in hydrogen fusion phase for 4.5 billion years and has another 4.5 billion years before it swells into a red giant (incidentally swallowing up the inner solar system including Earth EDIT: due to lost solar mass the Earth's orbit may move further out so it is nt swallowed) and will then begin it's helium fusion phase for billions of more years. The universe is 13.6 billion years old FYI.

Rising and setting are just a phenomenon of the relative motion between the earth and sun - the rotation of the earth about it's own axis in particular. The movement of the solar system in the galaxy or the movement of the galaxy in the local cluster of galaxies etc don't matter. Basically if me and you stand on the earth, and I turn my back to you (looks like you set to me LOL) then I turn around again (you rise to me). Doesn't matter the earth is moving.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squizzard45

The 2nd law states (roughly) that systems will always tend to move from a state of higher energy to that of a lower one (i.e. entropy and the order/disorder thing).

There are myriads of examples of this, but the two most common are the refrigerator and heat engines (e.g. car engines, boat engines etc...). It places limits on the first law of thermodynamics (conservation of energy).

So, say you have your car engine. The total amount of energy that goes into the engine to make it move (gas, electricity) will exactly match the output of the engine (making the car drive)-this is explained by the first law. The second law imposes the conditions that there is no such "ideal" engine and that there will always be entropy there. The engine dissipates some energy from the input (i.e. the gas and electricity) into external heat. Entropy says that it went from a state of higher order (having all that energy input and whatnot) to a state of disorder (burning off the fuel and heating up the engine in the process). This is all via the 2nd law.

The second law also explains a great deal in nature, for example why trees burn. They go from a state of higher energy (order) while they are in their "tree" phase to a state of lower energy (disorder) when they become ash; this of course can only happen if the tree burns.

To sum it all up: the second law basically states that anything that has a lot of energy (either kinetic or potential) will eventually release that energy in some form, thus taking it to a lower state of energy (disorder).

Hope that answers your question. I know it can be really confusing; believe me. A couple years of this stuff at my university and I'm still struggling with all these concepts

The second law of thermodynamics also gives a direction to time. But we must remember the second law refers to closed systems IIRC.

Thanas · Sep 01, 2005, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinitys Creature

The sun has been burnining in hydrogen fusion phase for 4.5 billion years and has another 4.5 billion years before it swells into a red giant (incidentally swallowing up the inner solar system including Earth) and will then begin it's helium fusion phase for billions of more years. The universe is 13.6 billion years old FYI.

Thats great, but how do you know this?

Divinitys Creature · Sep 01, 2005, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

Thats great, but how do you know this?

linkie

This link doesn't say how long the sun has been burning let me find one.
here it is linkie

Age of the universe linkie

There's loads you can find on Google, but since you studied Physics with Astrophysics I am sure you know where to look.

Thanas · Sep 01, 2005, 01:06 PM // 13:06

So are you saying physics is your WHY in answer to my questions.

MSecorsky · Sep 01, 2005, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

This question wasn't aimed at you, but lets continue for fun anyway.

From most locations on the planets surface there is an apparent rising and setting. These events result in what we call day and night. And anyway motion is relative. For your information the sun is meant to osciallate and if you really want to be pedantic, the sun supposedly moves relative to our galaxy.

The answer you have given however is adequate for me to initialise the next line of questioning. And that is

Why will the sun carry on burning. How do you know this to be true?

I really should read further before posting... Divinity beat me to the punch.

Answer, it won't... evident from our understanding that the laws of physics are constant throughout the universe and from observational data gathered from similarly massed stars in various stages of their lives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

So are you saying physics is your WHY in answer to my questions.

Physics isn't the "why", it just an explanatory means of the processes involved. There's no "why" in the metaphysical sense, things just happen under certain conditions.

Divinitys Creature · Sep 01, 2005, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

So are you saying physics is your WHY in answer to my questions.

Yes. It is the physical WHY at least. The fire will continue to keep burning until it runs out of fuel or something else stops it. We see other stars at other points in their life cycle. I think my answer satisfies a question of why. If you want a philosophical reason or a religious reason I dunno. God wants our crops to grow so we can eat?

Divinitys Creature · Sep 01, 2005, 03:14 PM // 15:14

10 chars

Spura · Sep 01, 2005, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Burning something organical creates water and carbon dioxide and a bunch of infrared. This is how the system goes into a state of higher entropy. However I don't know where Alura Pyro got his ridiculous question. What the hell does 2nd law have to do with theory of evolution? Earth is not a closed system!!!!! Energy comes from sun, and that energy allows plants to take water and carbon dioxide and do the reverse of burning. Every life form is constantly getting into a state of lower energy. This is why we eat!! No organism is a closed system. And so on,.... the whole thing works because of the sun.

Xue Yi Liang · Sep 01, 2005, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

Although I enjoyed reading that little sermon on the mountain, I have to say with all seriousness that everything you outlined is man-made in both interpretation, execution, and philosphy and, is therefore only real to people who subscribe to it. So the whole conversation has no meaning whatsoever.

I don't understand your comment.
Can you please explain?
All I was saying was that religious belief is a matter of personal faith - that's why it's naive to think anyone can "prove" that it's true for anyone else other than themselves. So a Christian isn't going to convince a self-proclaimed atheist that God exists - and an athiest isn't going to convince a Christian that God doesn't exist. In other words, any discussion between the two is rather pointless.
I think we're actually on the same page here.

Thanas · Sep 01, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinitys Creature

Yes. It is the physical WHY at least. The fire will continue to keep burning until it runs out of fuel or something else stops it. We see other stars at other points in their life cycle. I think my answer satisfies a question of why. If you want a philosophical reason or a religious reason I dunno. God wants our crops to grow so we can eat?

OK we have established physics/science is your means of explaining why the sun functions in the fashion it does.

So my next point is, what is scientific thinking but the measurement/observation of specific events which allow one to arrive at a general conclusion.

Do you agree with this?

Mistress Eyahl · Sep 01, 2005, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

What about people who apologize AND say that while they're sorry, it was still your fault as a whole...? There are some occasions where people DO act irrationally and just blow up for no reason, there've been times when I've said "Hey, how've you been?" And they'd start crying and shit. I don't consider that my fault.

...Do you really think I meant anything you've just said? Yeah.. I was talking about when people act irrationally...

Get a brain.

I'm talking about an insult to you followed by.. "Don't let yourself get so upset. If you can't take that from me then you're best of killing yourself cos you won't survive in this world."

_____________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mistress Eyahl

..a nice calm place to vent frustrations but none of it is aimed at anyone else at the forum in particular.
A sentence or two from each poster but the pet hates are not to be argued.
Try to keep the posts rhetorical.

What's with you people... you blind? I don't care if you've been having healthy debates, read the rules of the thread. Single sentence or paragraph posts stating a pet hate of yours. If you can't manage that then make your own thread entitled "Come here to argue with me" so you can all go there and yell about guns, the sun burning, god and whatever else you've been blabbing about. Just sort it.

-----

P.s.. no one cares about how much you know about a certain subject. You're not proving yourself smart. You're only proving yourself a person of poor character and argument because you have to have the last word. Just walk away from it.

Pr1nc355SaRa · Sep 01, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

my pet hate is dust... it gets everywhere! **shivers**

Thanas · Sep 01, 2005, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mistress Eyahl

...Do you really think I meant anything you've just said? Yeah.. I was talking about when people act irrationally...

Get a brain.

I'm talking about an insult to you followed by.. "Don't let yourself get so upset. If you can't take that from me then you're best of killing yourself cos you won't survive in this world."

_____________

What's with you people... you blind? I don't care if you've been having healthy debates, read the rules of the thread. Single sentence or paragraph posts stating a pet hate of yours. If you can't manage that then make your own thread entitled "Come here to argue with me" so you can all go there and yell about guns, the sun burning, god and whatever else you've been blabbing about. Just sort it.

-----

P.s.. no one cares about how much you know about a certain subject. You're not proving yourself smart. You're only proving yourself a person of poor character and argument because you have to have the last word. Just walk away from it.

I'm not attempting to prove myself smart. Debate for me is not about having the last word. For me its about exploring another persons mode of thought and increasing my own understanding of the world. I would also hope other people would take the something from my words. Do not compartmentalise me. Sorry if I got caried away and offended you, but I enjoy debating. Fact of the matter is organised debates don't tend to get a lot of attention.

p.s. I am not of poor character. That was uneccesary.

Thanas · Sep 01, 2005, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pr1nc355SaRa

my pet hate is dust... it gets everywhere! **shivers**

I hate the stuff too. Makes me ill because of my asthma.

Mistress Eyahl · Sep 01, 2005, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

I'm not attempting to prove myself smart. Debate for me is not about having the last word. For me its about exploring another persons mode of thought and increasing my own understanding of the world. I would also hope other people would take the something from my words. Do not compartmentalise me. Sorry if I got caried away and offended you, but I enjoy debating. Fact of the matter is organised debates don't tend to get a lot of attention.

Blah blah... but can you read english?

Make your own debate thread. It's people like you who get threads like this branded flame wars.

Oh, and you didn't "offend" me, you just p***ed me off with your blatent disrespect of what I'd already asked of people. Play by the rules not "your increased understanding of the world" rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

p.s. I am not of poor character. That was uneccesary.

Not bothered. What bothers me is for the last page or so every other post has been you with a massive paragraph.."debating".

Divinitys Creature · Sep 01, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

OK we have established physics/science is your means of explaining why the sun functions in the fashion it does.

So my next point is, what is scientific thinking but the measurement/observation of specific events which allow one to arrive at a general conclusion.

Do you agree with this?

Yes. Also allows us to predict things that do not exist and allow us to create them from an understanding of fundamental laws. For example, LASER light does not exist in nature, but by understanding the nature of light we were able to create it.

Divinitys Creature · Sep 01, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Whoa cool it Mistress. This is the off-topic forum. Here I'll make a thread or two.linkie

Edit: continue to post simple pet haes here if you want since I didn't want to thread hijack