Curse

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 13, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

CONTRARY to the popular silliness:

Blizzard/WoW does not own exclusive rights to player mounts, playable races, or the use of the internet to play online games.

Neither, did Blizzard/WoW actually invent any of those things.

So, let's stuff that silliness where it belongs.

======================================
Really, the "GW isn't WoW" method of rebuttal is getting old and makes absolutely no sense.

I submit that we as a community of intelligent people rise above such intellectually dishonest forms of debate.

We can retire the "GW isn't WoW" blurb to the list of other silly, useless forms of rebuttal:

-Well, so did Hitler!

-If you aren't with us, you're against us!

-If God wanted us to fly, he would have given us wings!

-She deserved what she got, dressed like that!

-But it's turtles all the way down!

-We had to destroy the village in order to save it!

Here's a nice list of 6 types of effective methods of rebuttal:

Quote:

Six main types of rebuttal

(1) Error of fact
This rebuttal involves demonstrating that an opposing argument is based on an error of fact, or an erroneous interpretation of fact.
(2) Irrelevancy
This rebuttal depends on showing that an argument that has been made by the opposing team is irrelevant to the issue under debate.
(3) Illogical argument
This type of rebuttal involves showing that the opposing argument is illogical (that is, its conclusion does not flow logically from its premise). The key to this type of rebuttal is to apply clear, simple, logical analysis.
(4) Unacceptable implications
Sometimes you may be willing to accept that an opposing argument is logically correct but should be rejected because it involves unacceptable implications. This style of rebuttal often arises when a debate calls for a comparison of unlike things (most often comparing something with an intangible value - like someone's life - with a dollar cost).
(5) Little weight
Sometimes you can undermine an opposing argument by showing that, while it might be correct, it should be accorded little weight.
(6) Contradictions and inconsistencies
A common form of rebuttal involves pointing out contradictions, changes in definition and case and inconsistencies between speakers. This category of rebuttal is central to debating. It is essential to listen to every word of every opposition speaker. Crucial aspects of their speeches should be recorded word-for-word (for example, the definition, justification and case) so that later inconsistencies and contradictions can be shown. Few teams will flagrantly contradict themselves so it is essential to 'listen between the lines' to ascertain exactly what they are saying.
[In all of the above, always consider the following questions:
• Is what the opposition seeks to prove the same as what we believe it must prove?
• Are the opposition's arguments true on face value?
• Do these arguments prove what the opposition seeks to prove?
• Are there counter-examples that disprove what the opposition seeks to prove?
• Have they been consistent in their argument?
• Even if what the opposition is saying is correct, what flows from that? Have they proved what the subject requires of them?]

-source: The Sport of Debating: Winning Skills and Strategies by Jeremy Philips and James Hooke UNSW Press 1998

Ghostwriter Harken · Feb 13, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

no offense, but shouldn't this go into the Off-Topic section?

lyra_song · Feb 13, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

"GW isn't WoW" is short for:

Guild Wars and World of Warcraft are two fundamentally different games. Their target audience and business models differ vastly as much as their style of gameplay. What works for GW won't neccessarily work for WoW and vice versa. Taking properties of one game and applying to the other is illogical because its attempting to reconcile two fundamentally different ideas, philosophies, and strategies.

Square peg in a round hole.

but personally, this is funny:

Arkantos · Feb 13, 2007, 12:35 AM // 00:35

You obviously haven't seen the oh so popular "Hi, I'm from WoW. Add mounts. Make level cap higher." threads.

Phaern Majes · Feb 13, 2007, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

CONTRARY to the popular silliness:
[B]
Blizzard/WoW does not own exclusive rights to player mounts, playable races, or the use of the internet to play online games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

Really, the "GW isn't WoW" method of rebuttal is getting old and makes absolutely no sense.

Um ok, but GW/Anet DOES own all rights to their game (or so their EULA claims). So following this logic:

1. WoW DOESN'T own the exclusive rights
2. GW DOES own the exclusive rights
3. GW isn't WoW = true, in pretty much every sense of the word.

Which is why I have to ask "why doesn't that make sense?" It may be old and overused but it makes perfect sense to me. Its like me saying ketchup isn't mustard, and you saying "but that doesn't make sense."

Senator Tom · Feb 13, 2007, 12:50 AM // 00:50

but...gw isnt wow...are you saying that that statement isnt true?

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 13, 2007, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator Tom

but...gw isnt wow...are you saying that that statement isnt true?

It's not a debate of the "logic" of the statement but one of it's worth as a form of argument. Responding that, "I like pie" could be equally valid if such rebuttals have merit.

The majority of times the "GW isn't WoW" response is used are in topics that aren't alleging the two games are the same.

I would rebut the "GW isn't WoW" statement as irrelevant to the conversation.

Zinger314 · Feb 13, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Yeah. But Guild Wars should still have an Auction House.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 13, 2007, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Yeah. But Guild Wars should still have an Auction House.

"GW isn't WoW" zomg!

But, yeah, it should. It would also be nice to be returned to your instance when reconnecting after a disconnect.

But, scratch that idea!

Alas, that's also something WoW has as well, zomg!

xxSilhouette · Feb 13, 2007, 02:08 AM // 02:08

o_O

Guild wars isn't wow. Last time I checked anyways.

I agree about the auction house though. and MORE STORAGE!!!!!!!!! =)

Batou of Nine · Feb 13, 2007, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

"GW isn't WoW" is short for:

Guild Wars and World of Warcraft are two fundamentally different games. Their target audience and business models differ vastly as much as their style of gameplay. What works for GW won't neccessarily work for WoW and vice versa. Taking properties of one game and applying to the other is illogical because its attempting to reconcile two fundamentally different ideas, philosophies, and strategies.

Square peg in a round hole.

Idk if the OP saw or read your post too well. Cause this is just about EXACTLY what i was thinking.

...So what if people aren't able to fully convey the philosophical meanings of "Gw isn't WoW"??? Imo its just like using abreviations (Ex:: WTS, WTB, LFG, GLF, ETC!!!). Why tell someone to stop using abbreviations? If you don't like it, don't read it, don't take the time for it to annoy you and you will be happy!

Err. I am just offering a suggestion. There is honestly no "philosophical or intellectual" issue to this and i think you are creating drama where it isn't needed nor was their any to begin with...

Just like no one likes people who tell others how to play the game, i am sure it doesn't help for you to try and tell people how to argue. They can argue as they wish to argue no matter how legitamate OR unintelligent we may think it is... provided it follows Forum Rules of course!

Anywhoo, seriously i would just try and ignore it, let it be and enjoy waht aspects of the forum you enjoy without worrying about others!

cheers!

RobbyTheSheef · Feb 13, 2007, 06:52 AM // 06:52

I used to play lots of WoW, and it's a good game, but you cant really compare it to GW. You just can't. I mean, doesn't it just seem logical that a game you have to feed money to is going to ultimately have more content? That, of course, doesn't make it a better game. The playing styles are entirely different. However, GW could quit being stubborn and get some ideas from WoW. The first thing that comes to mind is the obvious auction house. Mounts are cool and all, but GW doesn't NEED them. As for higher level cap, well, part of the reason i left WoW was because the leveling treadmill was so steep. You had to put in 5 hours a day for a week or so to hit 60, and well, screw that. I hit 20 in GW as a total noob in a week only playing about two hours a day(in Factions) for a week or so. However, as a PvP junkie, the PvP in GW is just not as fun as WoW, sorry, but it's not. Nothing in GW will ever be as cool as storming the alliance stronghold in AV with 39 other people and a dozen NPCs at your back. Am I ranting? Sorry.

Durik Lakmor · Feb 13, 2007, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Lyra Song pretty much nailed it on the head

DreamRunner · Feb 13, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobbyTheSheef

I used to play lots of WoW, and it's a good game, but you cant really compare it to GW. You just can't. I mean, doesn't it just seem logical that a game you have to feed money to is going to ultimately have more content? That, of course, doesn't make it a better game. The playing styles are entirely different. However, GW could quit being stubborn and get some ideas from WoW. The first thing that comes to mind is the obvious auction house. Mounts are cool and all, but GW doesn't NEED them. As for higher level cap, well, part of the reason i left WoW was because the leveling treadmill was so steep. You had to put in 5 hours a day for a week or so to hit 60, and well, screw that. I hit 20 in GW as a total noob in a week only playing about two hours a day(in Factions) for a week or so. However, as a PvP junkie, the PvP in GW is just not as fun as WoW, sorry, but it's not. Nothing in GW will ever be as cool as storming the alliance stronghold in AV with 39 other people and a dozen NPCs at your back. Am I ranting? Sorry.

I can put WoW PvP into a sentence. "RA in the masses and people only do it for better items." But seriously, I dislike WoW PvP a lot. Its stupid and doesnt take much effort to do anything at all. This is because of various things. All it takes is to move people into different area's and hope your team mates have good enough equipment so they can kill faster. So its putting TA\RA together, as in you can create a team or just go into yourself.

In short WoW pvp is messy.

I enjoy GW PvP more. When I started to first monk, I got an rush from it because I sucked and was bearly surviving. Then good ol' boon\prot saved the day ...most of the time.

Lykan · Feb 13, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27

I suggest we insert this template into the suggestion forum.

Quote:

"Hi I spend a lot of time playing ...... ... and have come to try GW, in that game they have ....... ........, I think GW should have them too."

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 13, 2007, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

I suggest we insert this template into the suggestion forum.

Quote:

"Hi I spend a lot of time playing ...... ... and have come to try GW, in that game they have ....... ........, I think GW should have them too."

That isn't the problem.

That's just a silly way not to discuss something rationally.

When someone comes and says we need a higher level cap because WoW has it:

WoW can be declared to be irrelevant to the discussion and can be dismissed. The meat of the debate is that Guild Wars was intrinsically designed around the concept of "no tread mill" leveling requirements and a relative balance between players. A stated intent by the designer/devs that levels wouldn't "mean" much in Guild Wars.

When someone comes and says we need to have more skills on our skill bar because WoW has it:

Again, WoW can be declared to be irrelevant to the discussion and can be dismissed. The true rebuttal to the idea is that skill bar limitation is a fundamental design element of Guild Wars and everything is centered around that factor for balance reasons.

Those are situations where pointing out that "A" isn't "B" can be use as a small stepping stone to a larger and more relevant point. However, in the examples below, "A" isn't "B" isn't useful.

Where the whole "GW isn't WOW" as a counter argument completely breaks down is when it's used in debates about features that in no way overturn Guild Wars fundamental design:

-If I start a topic about why I think Yeti's, Dwarves and Centaurs could make good playable races in Guild Wars in an expansion....and the response is, "GW isn't WOW"...that is a mindless response as well. It doesn't address the suggestion at all or support reason.

Rebuttals could be: (A) Would be "too" hard for Devs to integrate those races into the main story arc. (B) No, not , because would be better because the lore blah blah blah...

-A topic is started about player controlled mounts, flying and/or land based.
The "GW isn't WOW" is completely unnecessary.

Rebuttals could be: (A) Mounts are unnecessary because long distant travel is not an issue in Guild Wars because of map travel. Or, another rebuttal (B) Mounts would be largely useles unless they were incorporated into a PvP challenge or Mission scenario. Maybe even a jousting tournament...but by themselves they wouldn't add much to the game.

lyra_song · Feb 14, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

But we're sick of saying all of that.

GW isnt WoW is much shorter and smart-ass-y ^_^

Ashleigh McMahon · Feb 14, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

I have 2 thoughts on this.

1: I don't agree with people saying 'GW isn't WoW' but in sense I see where they are coming from. I'm sure GW could do great with some of WoW's features but I don't think that it should be made too much into WoW.

2: GW is unique. It should stay that way. Although I agree some features of WoW would be excellent for Guild Wars, I do not agree with the stealing of ideas constantly. GW and it's dev team have the potential to bring new ideas into GW. IMO they've already shown us how much they shine - and I expect great future developments from the dev team.

Just my thoughts

Ashleigh

B Ephekt · Feb 14, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

So you seam to understand why people say "GW isn't WoW" but choose to argue over semantics anyway? Great. This is a good thread.

Feme Assassin · Feb 14, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Gw isnt WoW NO SHIT i havent realised that alhtough i play gw 20 months