Curse

Fril Estelin · Apr 21, 2008, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. G

I found the teachers in my earlier years to be much better, willing to help you struggle through if you get stuck - Caring ear and all that

the attitude seems to be now im "all grown up" that I shouldnt get stuck, thing is im also not studying my time tables......The most help I can often expect is for them to extend the deadline a day or 2, but doesnt help me if I truly dont get what im doing...

You're quite right, but the real problem lies in an easy fact that, strangely, everybody is forgetting (I mean in real-life, not here on GWG):

we (teachers, in higher education in particular) teach more and more stuff, year after year, as the volume of knowledge increases steadily, in particular in science; curricula evolve but we've got the same amount of time to teach students; which means that, somewhere, something is lost and teachers cannnot realy do anything about it as they're only responsible of their course/modules.

The institutions that forget about the "numbers" usually teach better, but they attract less public funds. You have to bear in mind that a higher education institution (i.e. university) gets its funds from the research, while the teaching is professionally seen as a non-profitable responsibility. I know that the US system is much more flexible, but it has this trend to fund the universities that are "trustworthy", thus maker the rich richer. On the other hand the French government is funding massively universities and the standard of education is better (and the economy is quite strong, see OECD numbers). The British situation illustrates best IMHO the problems of the US abuse: the 4 best universities are getting better each and every year, but thanks to foreign students than eventually go back to their country, while most Britons end up with lower standards of education and more people leaving the education system with nothing (the French also did a terrible mistake by aiming to have 80% of success at the "baccalaureat", the exam which will allow you to enter university, thus artificially forcing teachers to reach teh target by lowering a bit the standards).

At the same time I'm reading the biography of the British tycoon Duncan Bannatyne and you realise how little school can teach you nowadays, though you may still be very lucky. Bear in mind that the great successes of our times are due to exceptionnal individuals, the education cannot make them but only help them flourish.

Woaw, I can't believe I've talked about all that on GWG

Mr. G · Apr 21, 2008, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

At the same time I'm reading the biography of the British tycoon Duncan Bannatyne

good choice btw

Fril Estelin · Apr 21, 2008, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. G

good choice btw

Yes it's a brilliant book. Unfortunately, you have to pay for it. I'd give the link to the book if only it were free, so that everyone can learn from it

Some teachers think that once you know how to learn at a good level, you no longer need teachers, and I'm wondering whether we (teachers) should only become "guides" and the money should be spent on giving books to "students" (in France you have a lower VAT for books! why isn't everyone doing this?) A bit extreme, but an original idea anyway.

/end derailing thread now

Oukanna · Apr 21, 2008, 05:10 PM // 17:10

College: Well considering I had to teach my supply graphics teacher how to use Adobe photoshop.....I would say the quality is less than schooling.

University: I hope to go there next term, it looks really promising. Depending which field you go into, will depend on the quality of learning, and of course which Uni you go to.

I had to look at loads of different options, it is a shame that all Universities are not the same. Some Unis are better than others; but usually because of money.
So effectivly whoever has the most money wins. lol

The more high ranking Uni, means more pressure....for lecturers to help students pass. If they fail I would think they get chewed out and replaced; so they will be more than willing to hold your hand a long the way to make sure you pass.
Lower Unis however, do not have so much pressure (not saying they don't have any) so the quality of teaching goes down.

Thinking about it, I could say the same thing for colleges.

Just my opinion anyhow, if you can prove me wrong then I would be happy to learn :-)

Divinitys Creature · Apr 21, 2008, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

Are you suggesting that a degree is not beneficial at all? If anything you NEED a high degree in order to get a decent job in today's world. Yes, costs are high to get an education, but then again you won't be getting a good job either with people with say i don't know.... actual developed skills from college? Unless you want to be a farmer or athlete, in which there are millions of people that you would be competing against, there is no way that you can get even an entry level job without a degree. Any degree at all, even its just an associates, is better then nothing since you will look better then those people without a degree. I would suggest a masters degree in most fields. You should however start working after your bachelors degree, in order to start paying off loans and collect money for your master's degree.

Now this part i do agree with, yea a lot of people brag about how successful they were, but you could end up completely differently. Its better to just learn from the mistakes of others, if they are willing to admit and explain their mistakes. Unfortunately no one is going to say "O im really unsuccessful, let me tell you my life story so you can laugh and do the opposite".

I think it wouldn't hurt to work for a few years before getting your degree. You can build up a valuable work history and financial history in that time, perhaps get onto the property ladder and maybe do your degree part time.

Even if you are the best student in school, you are a big fish in a small pond. When you go to university you'll be plankton again. And grades don't translate into dollars when you really need them and your family don't let you live with them anymore and suddenly you have no means to survive. So I think financial security > education. You really shouldn't survive off student loans unless you're doing something with a guaranteed job at the end like medicine or dentistry IMHO.

Remember that all the wages you would have earned while studying are also a cost to you of making that decision. Add that to your fees, books, living expenses etc. By going to college/university you go into debt while working people potentially save. The difference between going into debt $30k/year (pulled out the air) and earning $30k/year is $60k/year. How many years? 4 or 5? We're talking about a lot of money. When you try and amortise the costs of education over your lifetime of earning more there are quite a few wild assumptions I think. These include:

1) You will not fail, but pass and get a degree - people fail folks, it could be you!
2) You will get a degree class people actually value for the earning you've expected - yep your $60k CS job might not materialise with that 3rd class/pass.
3) You will not suffer a loss of your home or be kicked out of home while you study - it happens, a lot.
4) You will not have an injury/mental problem that stops your studies - this happens a lot too, just because you ignore it doesn't make it go away.
5) You will not have a injury/problem that stops you from working for a large part of your life or at all - play sports?
6) You will not have emotional problems or a divorce that cripples you financially and makes you lose your home and screw up your financial plans - been in love/marriage?

There are so many things that can go wrong in life but the naive youth get sold into the concept of getting into debt when they don't even have a penny in the world, haven't started adult life and just for the promise of making it back later with better earnings. I don't blame the kids for not knowing, they've been brought up that way. Just think about everything that can go wrong, and then think about all the things you have to do right to be successful.

You have to:

1) Attend the classes and do the work - not always possible if you're working your ass off to survive in a job.
2) You have to be smart enough to understand the material - what possible guarantee to do you have that you will be smart enough? What if you aren't?
3) You have to be lucky enough to get a teacher that teaches/ doesn't try to fail everyone - go to college and ask, the other students that study with you are your best bet for help.
4) You have to stay focussed for four years - that's damn hard you know.
5) You have to deal with being poor while other people are working, advancing in their careers, actually getting paid, buying houses and cars and starting families etc etc etc.

I'm not trying to put people off education. I just want them to think about the other side not just the rosy view or the necessary view imposed on them by their parents and teachers.

Mr. G · Apr 23, 2008, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Well, ive left University

and its all Fril Estelin's fault!

/blame

.......

Nah but seriously, it wasnt working - Ive already found a decent job and im much happier ^^

who needs edumactum right?

(I felt the need to edit this to make sure that everyone undestands I havnt gone and quit on the advice of random guru posters =P (no matter how wise they may be))

Dante the Warlord · Apr 23, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinitys Creature

I think it wouldn't hurt to work for a few years before getting your degree. You can build up a valuable work history and financial history in that time, perhaps get onto the property ladder and maybe do your degree part time.

Even if you are the best student in school, you are a big fish in a small pond. When you go to university you'll be plankton again. And grades don't translate into dollars when you really need them and your family don't let you live with them anymore and suddenly you have no means to survive. So I think financial security > education. You really shouldn't survive off student loans unless you're doing something with a guaranteed job at the end like medicine or dentistry IMHO.

Remember that all the wages you would have earned while studying are also a cost to you of making that decision. Add that to your fees, books, living expenses etc. By going to college/university you go into debt while working people potentially save. The difference between going into debt $30k/year (pulled out the air) and earning $30k/year is $60k/year. How many years? 4 or 5? We're talking about a lot of money. When you try and amortise the costs of education over your lifetime of earning more there are quite a few wild assumptions I think. These include:

1) You will not fail, but pass and get a degree - people fail folks, it could be you!
2) You will get a degree class people actually value for the earning you've expected - yep your $60k CS job might not materialise with that 3rd class/pass.
3) You will not suffer a loss of your home or be kicked out of home while you study - it happens, a lot.
4) You will not have an injury/mental problem that stops your studies - this happens a lot too, just because you ignore it doesn't make it go away.
5) You will not have a injury/problem that stops you from working for a large part of your life or at all - play sports?
6) You will not have emotional problems or a divorce that cripples you financially and makes you lose your home and screw up your financial plans - been in love/marriage?

There are so many things that can go wrong in life but the naive youth get sold into the concept of getting into debt when they don't even have a penny in the world, haven't started adult life and just for the promise of making it back later with better earnings. I don't blame the kids for not knowing, they've been brought up that way. Just think about everything that can go wrong, and then think about all the things you have to do right to be successful.

You have to:

1) Attend the classes and do the work - not always possible if you're working your ass off to survive in a job.
2) You have to be smart enough to understand the material - what possible guarantee to do you have that you will be smart enough? What if you aren't?
3) You have to be lucky enough to get a teacher that teaches/ doesn't try to fail everyone - go to college and ask, the other students that study with you are your best bet for help.
4) You have to stay focussed for four years - that's damn hard you know.
5) You have to deal with being poor while other people are working, advancing in their careers, actually getting paid, buying houses and cars and starting families etc etc etc.

I'm not trying to put people off education. I just want them to think about the other side not just the rosy view or the necessary view imposed on them by their parents and teachers.

Well, yes, money is an important issue, but comon we have some financial aid and scholarships. True, you aren't always guaranteed to succeed in life even with your college, but think about it what is the purpose of going to college? Its to develop skills that no one else has, or few people have, and prove to society that you indeed have the skills. That paper that you get after four, heck take some people liek my brother 5 years, isn't to say give me a job, but let you have some skills to help you in life in getting a job. If you don't have any skills, anyone in the world can replace you. Why would you want to work somewhere when you could be trying to develop some skills?

I think the main problem isn't finances, but its goals. Can you honestly say that when you are 18 you know 100% what you want to do for the rest of you life? The only justified reason i would say to stay home for now is to think about what you want to do for the rest of your life. But even that isn't the greatest idea, since you could be using that time to get all of the "personal interest credits". Its the problem i see with ambitious kids going to Ivy Leagues, especially all those kids in my school. Its that a lot of them have plans for the future where they are rich and have lots of things, but they might not be suited for the job.

I really feel that no matter what, you should go out and get some kind of degree. If you are poor, go to your local community college and get an associates degree, than start working after two years. True community colleges are mocked at and people with four year degrees will step all over you, but you need to get some degree to separate you from the rest of the people.

Issac · Apr 23, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Most people think eduction is everything.

I think it's to much.

fishy go moo · Apr 23, 2008, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by azzer20

well, you'r posts don't show that you'r not intelligent in any way, so, yeah.

But, 5th time is is the lucky time right? starting education this summer, Accountant, the teacher should have more brains than me, hopefully :P

You're

The Real Roy Keane · Apr 23, 2008, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Assessing what defines education is really tricky. You'll find all too oten that the the academically adept are the most socially inept.

Accursed · Apr 24, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Education is the pathway to 'victory' in our lifes.

Bill Gates probably spent so much time in college, which is why he's so damn rich.

Even if you hate it, you should stick to the program and in the future you'd be clapping yourself on the back for taking the pain of education while you sit in your gold bathtub, bathing in a tub full of 100 dollar bills.

Divinitys Creature · Apr 24, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Dante the Warlord, I agree with you on that! You do need to differentiate yourself from other people to get out of the race to the bottom where you're just a warm body! Or worse - replaceable by a machine/computer.

Nazar Razak · Apr 24, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Education now is not about Kids learning for later life anymore. Its about how to make have the highest mark in their Exams, how to make them Raise school statistics to further school funding by the Government. My Headteacher cares much less about the kids than her Career, sure school marks are going up, but they are pretty much false. You have to do very good to be able to take some of the harder subjects for GCSE's, moreso, the education given by our teachers isnt even that good. Exams have changed as a role, from simply testing what is being taught so far, to actually being the thing taught about. (sorry if any of this doesnt make sense, i will explain to more detail about how we are being taught in my school further if requested).

Malice Black · Apr 24, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blizzard.

Education is the pathway to 'victory' in our lifes.

Bill Gates probably spent so much time in college, which is why he's so damn rich.

Even if you hate it, you should stick to the program and in the future you'd be clapping yourself on the back for taking the pain of education while you sit in your gold bathtub, bathing in a tub full of 100 dollar bills.

Some of Britians richest men have little to no formal education.

Sir Alan Sugar
Sir Richard Branson

Both made money from hard graft, and self belief.

Education can help you on your way to sucsses, but it's by no means required.

Painbringer · Apr 24, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Education is just one outfit put in the luggage of life.

You will carry it with you forever.

Fril Estelin · Apr 24, 2008, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

Some of Britians richest men have little to no formal education.

Sir Alan Sugar
Sir Richard Branson

Both made money from hard graft, and self belief.

Education can help you on your way to sucsses, but it's by no means required.

You're completely right Malice, and I have a lot of respect for all these guys (including the Dragons and in particular Peter Jones), even when SAS makes business-wise bad decision in The Apprentice (but tvshow-wise ok).

On the other hand, the richest men in the world all have some sort of qualifications, and the new world tycoons all have an MBA at least (quite a lot don't deserve their millions). The "old guard" lived a different time, nowadays you see a lot of people prejudiced against diploma-less and in favor of graduates (and I can tell you from direct experience that sometimes you wouldn't rate some graduates very high but they still manage to get a degree).

It'd be foolish nowadays not to do some sort of training and fail at school/university. But it'd be as foolish to think that degrees alone will make your life easy.

Engage · Apr 24, 2008, 07:45 PM // 19:45

What is education................? Suffocation through knowledge. To conform to a certain existence chosen in advance, one that the masses promise will be best for the individual. One thought, one mind................

Dim faces, thinking the same thoughts, trying to understand the same question, why? A question imbued throughout existence, extended to each level of existence......Unable to answer, must conform...............

Krill · Apr 24, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

I was fortunate enough to have very competent teachers in high school, mainly in the humanities that made a point of grinding the basics into every student. In college it was shocking to see how many students came in without even a modicum of writing skill, as though thirteen years of K-12 had been spent on cloud nine. The ultimate goal of all education should be to free students from their respective caves so they can live a rational and fulfilling life. Short of that you're nothing more than than an animal with an inconsequential existence.

Engage · Apr 25, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

I was fortunate enough to have very competent teachers in high school, mainly in the humanities that made a point of grinding the basics into every student. In college it was shocking to see how many students came in without even a modicum of writing skill, as though thirteen years of K-12 had been spent on cloud nine. The ultimate goal of all education should be to free students from their respective caves so they can live a rational and fulfilling life. Short of that you're nothing more than than an animal with an inconsequential existence.

The ultimate goal of education is to conform the individual to the mold deemed worthy to exist. It's a way of life, a thought process, a training program for existence in reality.

"Rational and fulfilling." Laughable at best. Same time, same place, same work, tediousness at its climax. An eradication of spontaneity. Irregularities removed. How? Through education, prepped for capitalism.

Before you become aware of it ~1/4 of your life was plugged into this system. Were you notified? Were you asked? Did you really even have a CHOICE?

Krill · Apr 25, 2008, 03:31 AM // 03:31

A misanthrope, eh?