Curse

Jesses Paradigm · Aug 22, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Okay so since my school was built out of love for fascism, today one kid didnt stand for the pledge to the flag. and the teacher said he had to stand up and he said that it was in his rights that he did not have to stand for the pledge to the flag.

is this true? if you can point out where it is i would appreciate it.

now don't get me confused with an activist or a revolutionist, i just would like to know what to make of the situation

Kattar · Aug 22, 2008, 05:15 PM // 17:15

He doesn't have to stand. He doesn't have to pledge. There have been several Supreme Court rulings about this.

I assume you're in the U.S. right?

Jesses Paradigm · Aug 22, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

He doesn't have to stand. He doesn't have to pledge. There have been several Supreme Court rulings about this.

I assume you're in the U.S. right?

indeed

get rid of 12 chars

Winterclaw · Aug 22, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

I believe it was in his 1st amendment rights not to stand up for the flag. If my memory is correct, there was a court case in which a Jehova's Witness didn't want to stand for the flag and he won.

Kanyatta · Aug 22, 2008, 05:17 PM // 17:17

I'm pretty sure I've read about at least 3 different Supreme Court cases about this, and each one has been ruled in favor of freedom of speech. No one can force you to be a patriot.

Kattar · Aug 22, 2008, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Here's a good link about it:

http://dese.mo.gov/schoollaw/freqaskques/pledge.htm

Jesses Paradigm · Aug 22, 2008, 05:26 PM // 17:26

thanks alot guys, this made things alot clearer

Tatile · Aug 22, 2008, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Why do you have the pledge of alliegance anyway? What does it prove, doesn't it just make school children bitter? (Like going to CoE school made me bitter against Christianity to an extent.)

zwei2stein · Aug 22, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatile

Why do you have the pledge of alliegance anyway?

It's conditioning.

(wow, nazis already). Hitlerjugend, Pioneers, Sparks, etc. ... Organizations like theese are in best interest of whoever wants obedient low and middle class.

Seize them young. Force your doctrine on them. They are yours for rest of their life.

Penalize anyone who does not conform enough.

For example my brother was punished severely back when my country was commie land: No membership in "Pioneers", no pledging to flag, no kissing asses of kommie leadership = No chance for university, ever, No job better than moving cow feces around. Luckily for him, situation changed just as he was leaving highschool.

You dont need everyone actually like what they do or believe in cause, they just must need to keep image of proper citizen intact so that masses can easily identify with it, accept it as normal, conform and be proper working bees.

Pledging to flag with fiery patriotism in eyes is just part of it. Be afraid if "official" clubs of youth come to be and actually decent ogranization for youth gets demonized or simply banned (boyscouts were one of first thing that both nazis and commies banned here.). But it seems tht in USA they didnt bothering in creating them and simply converted schools to server this purporse.

But again, schools were always about providing skilled labourers and citizens first and about actually education people and teaching them to think last.

Simple: Dont count on any piece of paper to save your ass. you will suceed in not having to do it, sure, but it will cost you dearly in your life because it will appear somewhere in your papers. And it will not be good.

Tatile · Aug 22, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

I always thought there were some spooky parrelels between the US and Hitler's Germany, I was hoping I was wrong though.

Rabid and inexplicable fear of socialism

Snow Bunny · Aug 22, 2008, 06:16 PM // 18:16

He doesn't have to, and shouldn't be made to. The beauty of the first amendment allows this.

I do believe it's a tricky thing to attack patriotism though, and slightly insulting.

I also (as an Irish national) believe that most people, including US citizens, hold the US to a standard that's many degrees higher than any other country around the world.

I mean, the US invades Iraq, and without regards of the dubious nature of the invasion, people around the world protest the US, etc.

Russia goes ape-shit in Georgia and while there's some complaint, it's fairly quiet in terms of vocal criticism (aside from the US), mainly because people don't hold the Russians to that standard.

A lot of individuals simply have very bizarre notions of comparison between Nazi germany and the modern US. There're degrees of comparison, sure, but they're pretty much worlds apart.

The US fear of socialism derives from its capitalist-structured economy, which has historically worked decently well.

Anyway, flame on.

Tatile · Aug 22, 2008, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

[FONT=Tahoma]The US fear of socialism derives from its capitalist-structured economy, which has historically worked decently well.

Oh oops, deleted the Nazi bit, oh well.

I see parellels in everything, from Nazi's to tribal warfare. Doesn't mean I'm going to call America a nation of facists and face-painters, just that there a political points that arise that are somewhat similar (I do think that it's backwards in places, but I also think that of Britain).

Also, Capitalism works far better than extremist socialism/communism in it's accordance with human nature, but that doesn't mean that a country should be denied a working national health system, in my opinion.

I'd say more, but I'm tired and don't feel like screwing up trying to defend my beliefs or whatever.

By the way, free radios dammit.

Winterclaw · Aug 22, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Tatile, go to a bookstore/library and read some of the eariler chapters of Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg if you want to see some more parrallels between the US and Nazism. There's one on Hitler, one on Roosevelt, and in the back of the book a last one on eugenics/abortion. Basically the author thinks that American Progressivism is just a US form of what Germany, Italy, and Russia were doing in the earlier part of the last century.

Going back to the conditioning part, Kindergardens were originally instituted by germany (under Bismark I think) to seperate children from their parents at an earlier age and start conditioning them towards the state. And after a quick search on google, it looks like the US pledge was created by a socialist.

Tatile · Aug 22, 2008, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Ah thanks Winterclaw, I'll have to keep an out for that.

zwei2stein · Aug 22, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I also (as an Irish national) believe that most people, including US citizens, hold the US to a standard that's many degrees higher than any other country around the world.

Yes they do.

See, in Commie lands, USA was seen as "promissed land". paradise on earth with freedom and whatnot. It literally kept them alive and kicking because they had hope.

And everyone saw Russia as it was: Older bro who bullies with siblings, While USA info was either commie propaganda that noone believed or US propaganda that everyone wanted to believe.

Its not hard to see what happens if reality shatters pretty illusion of "better" world beyond ocean.

Winterclaw · Aug 22, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

The US fear of socialism derives from its capitalist-structured economy, which has historically worked decently well.

My own personal fear of socialism is twofold:
1. Is the creation of a secular god-state where a bunch of baffoons are acting like they are the world's defacto gods and infriging on my rights in the process. America is more or less supposed to be a libertarian country with a weaker goverment which isn't supposed to rule as much as just hold things together and keep the people safe. Aside from a small handful of things, the goverment should be pretty weak and staying out of the way of the states and the people.
2. Frankly there are too many idiots and lawyers in DC to run the nation well. Most have spent their lives either in a law office or the courtroom and have little knowledge and experience outside of that. Even worse is they then subscribe to party politics to get and stay elected and are seduced by the power. If you don't believe me, the current housing market problems were created by congress changing rules because they had "good intentions", then the market fell out and now this same "good intentioned" congress decides to have bail-out after bail-out. Translation: they screwed everything up and now our taxes are going to go up for their mistakes.

Quote:

I see parellels in everything, from Nazi's to tribal warfare. Doesn't mean I'm going to call America a nation of facists and face-painters, just that there a political points that arise that are somewhat similar (I do think that it's backwards in places, but I also think that of Britain).

In the US, some people are trying to make green the new brown or red imo. We are a land that used to value individual rights so if someone comes along who wants socialism or a form of nazism, it is his right. If you look at the far left, they still love places like Cuba or Vensualia.

Basically socialism (which nazism was a form of) is all about pooling power at the top and for people who want power, or for people who don't want to worry about everything, it's a seductive system.

around · Aug 22, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Okay so since my school was built out of love for fascism,

Do the teachers make you raise your right arm to slightly more than 90 degrees to your shoulder pointing in front of you? Do any non-white students have to wear large yellow stars?

Or do they just make you hand in homework on time?

RPGmaniac · Aug 22, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by around

Do the teachers make you raise your right arm to slightly more than 90 degrees to your shoulder pointing in front of you?

They used to...

Snow Bunny · Aug 22, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

"Because of the similarity of this arm extension to the Hitler salute, the Bellamy salute was widely replaced around 1942 with the modern gesture of placing the hand over the heart without raising the arm"

Faer · Aug 22, 2008, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

(wow, nazis already).

Guru was founded on Godwin's Law.