Curse

pamelf · Sep 11, 2008, 01:10 PM // 13:10

We need to add not limiting the number of installs we're allowed.

Zorgy · Sep 11, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

"...Anyway, if i pirate game, what can i do? Right, borrow it to friend, no problems..."

Hehe...hehe...QFT

Don't let the game companies treat us like pirates, speak up and back at them.

Yang Whirlwind · Sep 11, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by some guy

10. Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.
Give to friend, play for free?

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Because being social is ... bad? Anyhow ... Books? Music CDs? DVDs? Borrowing between people works for them.

Anyway, if i pirate game, what can i do? Right, borrow it to friend, no problems.

Nope, not bad! Just illegal! You purchase the right to play the game, not the right to lend it to others! Does that mean we do not do it ... probably not!

But you cannot blame the companies from not helping us make it easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorgy

Don't let the game companies treat us like pirates, speak up and back at them.

But most gamers are pirates! You and I might not be, but most people I talk to would rather have their games for free, and never mind the fact that it leaves you and me stuck with the bill for developing the products!

some guy · Sep 12, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind

Nope, not bad! Just illegal! You purchase the right to play the game, not the right to lend it to others! Does that mean we do not do it ... probably not!

But you cannot blame the companies from not helping us make it easier.

But most gamers are pirates! You and I might not be, but most people I talk to would rather have their games for free, and never mind the fact that it leaves you and me stuck with the bill for developing the products!

I'll let Yang do the talking now, since he understands what some of the stuff you ask is just not possible.

zwei2stein · Sep 12, 2008, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind

Nope, not bad! Just illegal! You purchase the right to play the game, not the right to lend it to others! Does that mean we do not do it ... probably not!

But you cannot blame the companies from not helping us make it easier.

But most gamers are pirates! You and I might not be, but most people I talk to would rather have their games for free, and never mind the fact that it leaves you and me stuck with the bill for developing the products!

Well, i can blame them for not making it easier, because for customer it makes it inferior product to pirated stuff, and more likely to pirate.

That is problem of pirating:

* Cheaper - sold stuff cant beat them there
* Unrestricted - pirates don't have to wait for release in their location. they don't have to deal with region protection or similar stuff. Developer can win there because they can be one step ahead there, but they loose there nowadays.
* Unrestricted #2 - protection bloatware. Pirating wins there: Usually no problems related to protection appear there. Devs can do much better.
* Convenient - downloading stuff is convenient compared to shopping for game, but developers can be at least at same convenience level (Steam) and they can do better than that.
* Goodies - Sold stuff wins there clearly be it with box content or with extras obtained some other way. Pirating wont give you this stuff. Unless developers make anti-features which pirates remove.

its is about 50/50 and Devs are at move. Time for smart move.

around · Sep 12, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

To the traditional list of the persecuted (Jews, Gays, Blacks, Women etc etc) we need to add another group of people: the gamer.

Divinitys Creature · Sep 12, 2008, 06:00 PM // 18:00

And nerds

Yang Whirlwind · Sep 12, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

To me it is a question of changing the way gamers think.
Pirating:
- It is not ok!
- It makes the games more expensive for the rest of us!
- It is a crime!

When we have changed this (which should be slightly after hell freezes over), we can talk about making laws for the game companies! Until then, they should be allowed to try anything to protect their profit margins!
After all: no profit = no new games! (no,- they don't do it for fun)

Zorgy · Sep 13, 2008, 01:18 AM // 01:18

http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinf...0912spore.html

Spore's Piracy Problem

"...How do you measure the failure of the copy protections that software companies place on their media products? In the case of Electronic Arts' highly-anticipated game "Spore," just count the pirates.

As of Thursday afternoon, "Spore" had been illegally downloaded on file-sharing networks using BitTorrent peer-to-peer transfer 171,402 times since Sept. 1, according to Big Champagne, a peer-to-peer research firm. That's hardly a record: a popular game often hits those kinds of six-figure piracy numbers, says Big Champagne Chief Executive Eric Garland.

But not usually so quickly. In just the 24-hour period between Wednesday and Thursday, illegal downloaders snagged more than 35,000 copies, and, as of Thursday evening, that rate of downloads was still accelerating. "The numbers are extraordinary," Garland says. "This is a very high level of torrent activity even for an immensely popular game title."
Electronic Arts (nasdaq: ERTS - news - people ) had hoped to limit users to installing the game only three times through its use of digital rights management software, or DRM. But not only have those constraints failed, says Garland, they may have inadvertently spurred the pirates on.

On several top file-sharing sites, "Spore"'s most downloaded BitTorrent "tracker"--a file that maps which users had the game available for downloading--also included step-by-step instructions for how to disassemble the copy protections, along with a set of numerical keys for breaking the software's encryption. For many users, that made the pirated version more appealing than the legitimate one.

"By downloading this torrent, you are doing the right thing," wrote one user going by the name of "deathkitten" on the popular file-sharing site The Pirate Bay. "You are letting [Electronic Arts] know that people won't stand for their ridiculously draconian 'DRM' viruses."

"You have the power to make this the most pirated game ever, to give corporate bastards a virtual punch in the face," deathkitten added in another comment.

Another user with the handle "dsmx" sounded more conflicted. "I feel bad about pirating this game I really wanted to buy it but EA put DRM on it and my policy is that any form of DRM means an instant not parting with money," he wrote. "When I pay for something I want to own it not rent it with EA deciding when I'm not allowed to play it anymore."

The copy protections on "Spore" were equally detested by a less piracy-prone crowd at Amazon.com. By Thursday evening, the game had received more than 2,100 reviews, nearly 2,000 of which had given it a rating of one star out of five. Most negative reviews--including messages titled "No way, no how, no DRM" and "DRM makes me a sad panda"--cited the game's restrictions as a sore spot.

Electronic Arts calls those criticisms unfair. "EA has not changed our basic DRM copy protection system," says corporate communications manager Mariam Sughayer. "We simply changed the copy protection method from using the physical media, which requires authentication every time you play the game by requiring a disc in the drive, to one which uses a one-time online authentication."

Electronic Arts compares its DRM solution to systems in place on services like iTunes that similarly limits the number of computers that can play a particular song. Sughayer also points out that less than 25% of EA users attempt to install the company's games on more than one computer, and less than 1% attempt to install it on more than three.

Peer-to-peer file theft is a growing problem for game developers. According to Big Champagne, games, along with television shows, are the two fastest growing types of media trafficked on peer-to-peer networks, though music remains the most often stolen medium. See "In Pictures: Why Web Pirates Can't Be Touched."

"PC games are massively pirated because you can pirate them," says Brad Wardell, chief executive of Plymouth, Mich.-based gaming company Stardock. Wardell argues that the driver for piracy is user-friendliness--not price. Instead of digital locks, Stardock requires users to use unique serial numbers which it monitors, in conjunction with IP addresses.

"Our focus is on getting people who would buy our software to buy it," Wardell says, rather than trying to strong-arm people unlikely to pay for the products into become paying customers.

DRM only limits the ability of consumers who wouldn't typically pirate media to make copies or share it with friends and family, agrees Big Champagne's Garland. But because encryption is so easily broken by savvier--and more morally flexible--users, it does little to stop the flood of intellectual property pirated over the Internet, he contends.

"DRM can encourage the best customers to behave slightly better," he says. "It will never address the masses of non-customers downloading your product."...."

Hehe...hehe...hehe....etc....

Divinitys Creature · Sep 13, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Did they estimate how many people bought the game and downloaded it so they could have the unencumbered (DRM and rootkit free) version? Or if they were Australian and mad at the price gouging and so they ordered a copy from Europe and downloaded it because they didn't want to wait? Or if their disc arrived broken so they just downloaded it because it was faster than talking to customer dis-service monkeys?

Yang Whirlwind · Sep 13, 2008, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind

To me it is a question of changing the way gamers think.
Pirating:
- It is not ok!
- It makes the games more expensive for the rest of us!
- It is a crime!

When we have changed this (which should be slightly after hell freezes over), we can talk about making laws for the game companies! Until then, they should be allowed to try anything to protect their profit margins!
After all: no profit = no new games! (no,- they don't do it for fun)

Since it seems someone missed my point I'll just restate it!

Commander Ryker · Sep 14, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

1. Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.

No, they don't. That's why the minimum requirements are listed on the box. If you allow that it will lead to abuse.

2. Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.

If that happened, then you would have all kinds of QQing about how long it's taking to release.

3. Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.

Meaningful as in what?

4. Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.

But what about those "meaningful" updates you asked for? This also allows for abuse. If the download is to fix an exploit people won't do the download so they can keep abusing the exploit.

5. Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will adequately play on that computer.

Agree with this.

6. Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their express consent.

Drivers are harmful? What if they are added so that the "minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will adequately play on that computer"?

7. Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.

Agree

8. Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.

Everyone is a potential criminal, gamers included.

9. Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.

Every single-player game does not force you to be connected to the internet.

10. Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.

I agree with this.

Source

Zorgy · Sep 16, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Ars puts Spore DRM to the test—with a surprising result

"...With all the sound and the fury, we wondered if anyone had even yet dealt with this install limit? Mark DeSanto, who reviewed the game, installed his review copy of Spore on his main gaming PC twice, once on his laptop, and then again on the gaming PC. Four installs, across two systems. The fourth installation received an authentication error when he tried to log into the game. A quick call to EA's customer support brought an oddly-happy voice on the line, and once informed of the issue, he quickly determined that there was a network issue on their side; Spore's authentication servers were down. So it was DRM in general that was causing the problem, not an issue specific to EA or Spore.

We hung up the phone and waited roughly fifteen minutes to call EA tech support once more; we were hoping to get someone else to get a different opinion, as we were sure we had used up all our installation attempts. Calling back, another happy voice—female this time—checked into the account and determined that we had only registered the game twice—not four times. Spore was only registering installs on new machines. The game booted with no issue soon after; it seems to have truly been a network issue.

With installing the game four times between two machines, and still no issues, we decided to remove the game and installed it a fifth time on the gaming PC, and still had no issues with playing the game. Next we decided to move over to a completely different, so far unused, machine, installing it on an antiquated test system... no issues. Finally, the game was installed onto a Mac Pro, and we struck gold with the pictured error message.

A call to EA brought us to the same help person as the first call. We informed him of the error message and gave him his Spore account information as well as the product key. A few minutes later the rep determined that we had, in fact, used up all our "key activations." As friendly as can be, our EA employee inferred that it was probably some kind of printing error on the manual. Here's the catch: we decided to tell him that we had rented the game. He assured us he could resolve the situation and did—issuing me another CD key for the game. We wanted to make it clear we understood the DRM restrictions and asked about the install limitations and he informed me that "you could install the game all day long on the same machine—it was limited to installations on three separate machines." The only catch: the game had to be reinstalled after the new key was issued.

While the issue of the install limit is a touchy one, it doesn't look like a normal install will do much to use up your limit, and in fact we surpassed the install limit by a few times before running into an issue. Even after being told that we were "renting" the game, EA was happy to give us a new key to run the game. In this case, customer service wins, and we left wondering if the DRM controversy might be more philosophical in nature than rooted in any real-world inconveniences..."

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...ng-result.html

imnotyourmother · Sep 18, 2008, 06:00 PM // 18:00

no i do not want changes. keep things the same. darn it all to the darn it all. if we gamers think of some thing that the progrmaers did not think of then that is th epob of the games progreammers. leve us alone

Yang Whirlwind · Sep 18, 2008, 07:39 PM // 19:39

No one's suggesting anything in this thread - they are flat out demanding!
I have still not seen any logical arguments to suggest why any sane government should make any of your rules law. And that would be the only way you could ever demand anything from the gaming companies.
The only (legal) choice left to you, is not to buy products, you feel doesn't live up to your standards!

These are fine suggestions - but they are put down like demands. How many people do you know, who would listen to demands they have no legal obligation to follow?

distilledwill · Sep 19, 2008, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Spore definately violates #2.