Curse

Eragon Zarroc · Jan 25, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

the notes could be easily copied and saved on a comp or something, retarded. w/e. she shouldn't be allowed to go through ur backpack.

theaveng · Jan 25, 2009, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAEsquire

I am a lawyer. .... The students notes are considered derivitive works and are well protected under fair use etc.

ALSO: The teacher is a government employee, and just like a Congressman can not copyright his speeches, or a Governor copyright his emails, or the Supreme Court copyright their legal rulings..... a government employee can not copyright their work product while on the Taxpayer clock.

It is ALL public domain. She had not right to confiscate the students' notes. The concept is as silly as President Obama claiming we can not make video recordings of his inaugural address.

SigmaNunki · Jan 25, 2009, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinitys Creature

That post made the same point I would - the teacher will find a way to F*** you up they are petty control freaks excusing the few good ones. Appealing to the administration is appealing to more control freaks who don't care about your life. This is the reality of the situation. If you want to do the right thing and fight for your rights, good on you - but it will cost you.

I would replace that 'will' with 'may'. Because, if this teacher has a brain in her head, she'll realise that she'll be put under a microscope for some time (at least with regards to this one student). That the student can claim unfair treatment due to this incident (and rightfully so). The only thing that such actions will do is look *very* poorly on her. And since high school teachers don't get tenure, she'd be wise to avoid such things. Especially, if this thing hits the press.

Sure, it *may* cost some time/anguish/etc. But, that is the typical price for doing the right thing. If only more people would do this, the price would go down and down and down and...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Slashdot? And main page? This server is more sturdy that I thought.

Lots of interesting advice, but the thing is, he's still a minor (purely guessing, could be false), so if anything, his parents will have to decide if they want to push for charges or apology. He could of course try to do it by himself, but that would be a lot harder to have any effect.

That's of course only my take on it. Everything is possible if you try hard enough.

If a minor cannot report a crime, then that legal system is broken. I don't believe that either the US or Canada has such an insane restriction.

Also, this isn't about whether something is hard or not. It's about whether a law or laws have been broken. Here, there has been a clear violation of policy as well as the law. It really is that simple. This student should get his parents involved and have a nice chat with the schools administration. Failing that, the local news is more than just an option.

Stuff like this needs to be crushed /before/ it gets out of hand. Not after.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theaveng

ALSO: The teacher is a government employee, and just like a Congressman can not copyright his speeches, or a Governor copyright his emails, or the Supreme Court copyright their legal rulings..... a government employee can not copyright their work product while on the Taxpayer clock.

It is ALL public domain. She had not right to confiscate the students' notes. The concept is as silly as President Obama claiming we can not make video recordings of his inaugural address.

Private school /may/ be exempt from that. I'm not sure about that as they usually do get some public funding. So, they may or may not be able to copyright there work in general. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that the info on the board can be copyrighted as it will fall under fair use (especially if it is pretty much copied from a textbook). Gotta love that educational exemption.

Dante the Warlord · Jan 25, 2009, 07:26 PM // 19:26

I guess it depends on the situation. Lets say you put the midterm into your backpack and try to sell it for money for those who haven't taken it yet. I would say its perfectly justified for any administration to take the stuff from your backpack and search for a stolen midterm. It is however a lack of trust in the school and something that should not be taught in high school however and I would not morally justify it.

But i can also defend this on your side since she could have just as easily NOT given out the tests back to you or let you see it and check you mistakes, but still keep it. On top of that the tests are the only real things that would be useful to the students. Notes are your own property and they should be kept for the sake of knowledge.

On a side note who actually keeps their tests from 2-3 months ago lol... My binder gets so stuffed with notes and paper i have to throw stuff out

themagicbean · Jan 25, 2009, 11:34 PM // 23:34

1. IAAL, (who has both prosecuted and presented continuing education on copright) which you can tell by:

2. Disclaimer: No attorney-client relationsihp is formed by the dissemination of the following information. If you actually wish to pursue any legal action contact an attorney in your jurisdiction first.

3. A school official (administrator/teacher/etc.) needs reasonable cause to search or seize a student/his belongings.

4. If it was a notebook provided by the school, no violation of rights. If it was your notebook, she took your stuff, that is theft (a crime) and conversion (or trespass to chattels), both torts (civil wrongs).

5. In any case, the entry of the backpack is probably not justified--unless she first asked you to return the school's notebook and you didn't give it back and she had cause to suspect it was in your pack.

6. All the copyright ranters (mostly on Slashdot): First, copyright is irrelevant to the physical object theft and the invasion of privacy. Even if we assume the student had no copyright and the teacher had copyright in the information in the notebook, the physical object can't just be seized by a private party without court order. Yes, when copyright is infringed a plaintiff can file suit and obtain a court order allowing seizure and/or destruction of the property but, before the court orders that seizure or destruction, the property is still the defendant's. The feds (or other law enforcers), if dealing with criminal copyright investigations can seize earlier (e.g., searching a house with a warrant and taking out the computers used to distribute copies of a movie without permission), but you weren't dealing with the feds.
In any case ...

7. There's nothing to indicate a plausible allegation of infringment (see 8), much less criminal infringment (willful infringment for personal gain).

8. In fact, it's most likely that the copyright belongs to the student. The teacher is communicating information. The student arranges that information in his notes, selecting and storing what information to keep and in what order. This makes the student the copyright holder of the arrangment of the information. To those who would argue it is the teacher's or textbook's information: remember (section 102(b)) what isn't copyrightable--processes, orders, etc ... and factual information is generally not the subject of copyright under the merger/scenes a faire doctrines ... thus the teacher and textbook publisher had thin copyrights in their publications/assertions (protecting their arrangments and annotations) and the students arrangment of that information is his copyright. (To those who said the teacher cannot copyright her work it's the US Government--federal--that cannot under Title 17. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any law extending that to the states (or cities or smaller governments or parts thereof such as school districts but if you would care to correct me, I welcome you to do so (subject to the restriction in the next paragraph).)

9. Please do not respond to any part of this telling me I'm wrong unless you, too, have a bar card. (I have simplified a few things, yes, but the rules are right.)

10. Please someone post this on the Slashdot thread as /. is not letting me log in right now.

11. What you need to do: 1. Get your parents on your side. 2. Talk to higher school officials (VP/Principal/Dean/maybe even superintendant if not pleased).

12. It actually may be worth it to make a case out of it if the teacher teaches enough students (class action civil rights lawsuit). See paragraph 2.

theaveng · Jan 27, 2009, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by themagicbean

10. Please someone post this on the Slashdot thread as /. is not letting me log in right now.

DONE.

Even if you can't login, you can still post anonymously.

Fril Estelin · Jan 27, 2009, 01:15 PM // 13:15

I know that in the UK that's perfectly illegal, until she's cleared this with the university/college administration. She could probably be sued, unless it's been cleared by a lawyer. Now this is an extremely stupid thing to do, believe me I'm teaching (at uni) and these kind of affairs turn our job from "a passion to make people learn" to a "we'll just do our job, to the letter, and no more" (believe me, it'd be much easier: no engaged discussions with students, no time taken to discuss their own problems, no devising tutorials tailored to their needs, no trying to "inspire" but rather teach by the book). But it seems this is happening anyway (yep there are lazy teachers, but there are lazy students too; IMHO people's judgements are clouded by personal experiences and emotions, i.e. I love or hate teachers/education).

I wonder whether there's more to this story (I had a similar experience 6 months ago when a student complained that I was being aggressive and it turned out that it's simply the student that exaggerated...so now put my shoes on and imagine how you'd feel if your students were to act like that!), like the teacher found that a student this year submitting stuff from last year, or all students are lazy and photocopy notes from previous years? She should know better than resubmit the same exam paper or assignment, or force people to burn their course notes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theaveng

The concept is as silly as President Obama claiming we can not make video recordings of his inaugural address.

One big, major difference: there are exams based on these notes, and the course runs every year. This makes exploiting the use of these notes a risk for the teacher. Do we know what she's teaching and how she's teaching it?

Messy · Jan 28, 2009, 09:26 PM // 21:26

I am a teacher in an Elementary Public School in NYC.

We are NOT allowed to search student's backpacks, unless we suspect there might be a weapon or drugs, and even in that case, we need to do it with the Principal present. Parents would need to be called as well.

I would definitely tell your parents to bring it up to your principal and superintendent. She can run the class however she wants, but unless she paid for that notebook, she has no right to it.

thor hammerbane · Jan 29, 2009, 08:11 AM // 08:11

This kinda proves how botched the whole education system is. Instead of it being a form to learn applicable life skills, we're just being trained to be herded sheep. I mean, If you made some good notes in economics this semester, why not save them? Read them over next year, maybe even start following the economy. There..proper learning has been achieved.

Of course, this doesn't apply to all spectrums. I have had some good teachers that actually do want you to learn something applicable, not just mindless facts and data recall.