Curse

Frank Dudenstein · Nov 04, 2008, 03:32 AM // 03:32

I know alot of people wondering if they should try this game .. so after 2 months of solid play I thought I'd provide some input from a GuildWars player's perspective.

A bunch of us went to Warhammer with extremely high hopes ... something to hold us through the lean times til GW2. Many have cancelled their subscriptions after 1 month and the guild is getting dead already. The game HAS potential so i'm sticking it out for now to see if the devs can recover. The devs are VERY active ... patches come constantly and they seem to act quickly on player requests ... so I have some hope.

But it is certainly no Guildwars.

Here's my quick overview:

***
PVE
***

Questing is solid if unspectacular. There's a million quests to do, same recipe as every other MMO ... run here, kill that, etc.

Items are extremely bland. Coming from GW, I was expecting to be blown away by the array of gear I could choose from ... I still have memories of Diablo's sweet loot. Quite the opposite, I think GW has more variety than WAR.

Crafting is worthless. The devs even admitted it .. when asked in an interview why it was lame the Lead Game Designer basically replied "We threw in crafting so the game reviews wouldn't ding us for not having it". It's quite obvious they dropped it on some poor designer two weeks before release and said "Here, see what you can do."

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Public Quests
***

These were much ballyhooed, and can be alot of fun. For those that don't know, these are basically repeatable PVE quests that you need a group to complete. They occur in a set location on a timer, so you just show up and start fighting with whoever else happens to be there - no partying up necessary. When it completes your reward is based on how much you contributed throughout the quest. It's a very good idea.

When there's enough people, they are very fun. But therein lies the problem. There is almost never enough people to complete them. Even at prime time they are mostly empty. You normally need to form a guild group to complete one ... the end bosses typically require at least 8-10+ people.

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PvP (err, RvR)
***

PvP is the focus of the game, and the Devs are unabashedly blunt about this. (GW devs pls take note of this, you don't have to be ashamed about balancing a game around PvP). The PvP has potential (I think) but coming from the beauty of Guildwars, I see many many glaring issues.

There are two types of PvP:

1.Open world PvP.

Basically you run around, kill whoever you find, and capture Towers, Keeps, and Castles. You can use seige weapons like Ballistas. You can drop hot oil from the rampart while enemies try to bash down the castle gate with a battering ram. All in all it *sounds* fun. But mostly it isn't ... it suffers from some serious problems:
- There are very few rewards for doing Open RVR (as it is called) hence very few people do it. The zones are mostly desolate.
- When you do find a fight, or seige a castle and defenders come running, it is almost never a fair fight. Invariably one side has many more people, and wipes the other easily. Strategy and tactics rarely matter when you outnumbered 3-1.
- the classes are not well balanced or designed at this point (see below)
- The keeps have some extremely tight chokepoints that can be held by a small group of nukers, tanks and healers for a LONG time.

2. Instanced "Scenarios"

These are clearly the most successful part of WAR to this point .. instanced 12v12 battles on HA-style maps with objectives like capture the flag and such. You can enter solo or as a group of up to 6 (you may NOT bring a full team of 12 ... very much like AB).

*****Guildwars Devs - please start taking notes here*****

The implemetation of these instanced PvP scenarios was the most brilliant thing WAR has done ... and GW2 should license/copy/outright steal it's design. It works like this:

You travel around the gameworld doing PvE quests or OpenRvR or whatever your heart desires. All the time there is a little "Enter Scenario Queue" button at the top of your screen. You press it and you (and your party if you wish) enters a Queue .. and when you have opponents you are automagically teleported into the battle. No standing arond for an hour waiting for a PuG to form, or for your group to get it's sh*t together. You can be anywhere in a world and when its time to go, you just go. When it's over, you teleport back to where you left off. Your party doesn't need to be together either, you can be spread thoughout the 6 corners of the earth and you all can still enter together.

*****Guildwars Devs - you can stop now*****

It's sort of a combination RA and AB ... great for soloing and good for groups. Since you can bring up to 6 of the 12 players, and the objectives are pretty strightforward, the better group usually wins. Not as serious as GvG ... but very fun nonethelss.

*****Guildwars Devs - please start taking notes again*****

You are actively pushed towards PvP, but not in a bad way. You are given quests and quest rewards to participate in PvP. The PvP matches themselves give you even more XP and gold. (In fact it's entirely possible to level to max doing PvP only.) And the lower level PvP is very noob-friendly. I have several PvE-only friends that avoided GW PvP like the plague. They went into WAR PvP to get the quest rewards and got hooked. My brother even wanted to reroll on an Open PvP server! (I immediately bought canned food and bottle water after I heard that)

The point is, if PvP is accessible, inviting, and rewarding, virtually everyone will enjoy it. Even the PvE die-hards.

*****Guildwars Devs - you can stop now*****

The only issues is that there is no distinction between PuG groups and guild groups ... they often fight against each other and the PuGs get steamrolled, which isn't much fun for either side. Also t, no GvG type battles and ladders/tournaments makes it a bit lacking ... but it's not the focus of the game (openRvR is supposed to be...)

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Class balance
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Serious issues ... I'll just touch on a few:

Nukers (Sorcerers and Bright Wizards) are ridiculously overpowered. They do huge single-target damage and huge AoE to boot ...and come with a bunch of utility! They can't do much 1v1, but with appropriate support they blast anything in their path to smithereens. Currently, if you want to win group-based battles, you roll a bunch of nukers and a few healers, there is no reason for anything else.

Healers only push red bars up .. they have almost no prot or hex removal. They were *advertised* as moderate damage dealers that used damage to power their healing. But, as expected, in PvP your healers need to be totally focused on healing ... and with only "red-bars-go-up" abilities their lives are a living hell of trying to keep up with nuker damage.

Melee characters are largely worthless. I mean, they are fine soloing soft targets and healers. But in organized battles they are obliterated long before they can get in range to do any damage.

Tanks have better survivability and can hold up to nuking (for at least 5 seconds or so). But they do so little damage the don't matter too much. They DO have some nice group defensive abilites, so used wisely they can help your team survive for the extra 10 seconds it takes for your nukers to wipe their team..

There are ranger-type utility characters ... but they suffer from the "why wouldn't I just take a nuker and blow the crap out of people" syndrome . There is nothing comparable to a mesmer.

Interestingly, the class balance issues are not game-breaking YET, because it takes so long to level most people are sticking with what they rolled and hoping the devs will balance. Hence, most battles right now are somewhat balanced - not like GW where every battle is against the same overpowered build. (However if class balance isn't quickly addressed .. it will come to this).

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Other issues
***

The game has some other serious issues that need to be mentioned:

Population Imbalance
There are many more Destruction (evil) players than Order (good). This is really obvious in the OpenWorld PvP ... the outnumbered side rarely wins.

Number of Servers
The Devs grossly misjudged how many servers would be needed at release .. they release far too many. Hence, the game population is spread super-thin and the gameworld seems very very emptly. even at primetime. And forget doing anything that requires a group in non-primetime. This really kills Public Quests and PvP ..I often find myself standing around with nothing to do but grind out quests.

The devs also don't want to server-merge .. as this is taken as a sign of failure. Instead they are offering free character transfers from specific servers to specific servers. My server has yet to be a destination (or source) so I'm still stuck with low population for now.

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The Tome of Knowledge
***

One last thing I shouldn't leave out ... Every character has a journal (Tome of Knowledge) that automatically tracks quests, rewards, titles, and basically everything your character has done. Ever. I mean everything. It's hard to explain but it's really really really cool. I mean really cool (and this is coming from a PvPer ... PvEers are probably cleaning the ceiling over it). BTW, did I mention the Tome was cool?

***

Well .. thats it. I could go on and on .. this game has alot to offer .. and and comes with alot of issues. My review may sound a little negative (maybe I was hoping for another GW) but in reality I've mostly had fun. The devs are very responsive and seem to be working hard on the right things. So if you are looking for something to try .. I think its worth a shot. Maybe not for long-term, but for $50, you could do alot worse.

The Red Messenger · Nov 04, 2008, 04:00 AM // 04:00

the game sounds like it has potential, but the monthly fee is a big turn-off for me

Abedeus · Nov 04, 2008, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

These are clearly the most successful part of WAR to this point .. instanced 12v12 battles on HA-style maps with objectives like capture the flag and such. You can enter solo or as a group of up to 6 (you may NOT bring a full team of 12 ... very much like AB).

Ffffail. I've seen Scenarios as small as 8 vs 8 and as big as 18 vs 18. (3 full parties in a Scenario Warband).

Imo wait for patch 1.1. I'm not renewing my sub this month, because I chose to play an Engineer and at level 20 it's just not fun. Also, T3 consists of ONE scenario (that is, there are more, but people only play this one) where the side with more knockbacks (a lot of lava ponds on the map) wins.

ORvR could be fun, but there are little people doing it. Few reasons:

1. Scenario is easier.
2. You can play it as many times as you want (for a keep you can't attack all the time or defend all the time).
3. You get more loot and exp.
4. More renown.
5. Less lags/FPS problems.

Oh, yeah, you saw the minimum requirements, did you. Now look at Recommended. Try this game ONLY if you exceed those recommended.

AscalonWarrior · Nov 04, 2008, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Played it for 3 weeks, but it wasn't a game for me. I just couldn't find any class that suits me well.

But if you like PvP you should try it.

some guy · Nov 04, 2008, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Where are the spacemarines!!!!

Whenever i see warhammer i want to play as a spacemariNE not some other stuff....

azzer20 · Nov 04, 2008, 10:13 AM // 10:13

About public quests (PQ), i guess you've been very unlucky, each time i'm at the PQ even at 3 am in the night, there is at least 3 people, and this is with all races.

Frank Dudenstein · Nov 04, 2008, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Ffffail. I've seen Scenarios as small as 8 vs 8 and as big as 18 vs 18. (3 full parties in a Scenario Warband).

This is pretty rare ... and has mostly been fixed. Almost everything now is 12v12. People often leave if it isn't going well, but the game has gotten pretty good about replacing them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Imo wait for patch 1.1. I'm not renewing my sub this month, because I chose to play an Engineer and at level 20 it's just not fun.

You chose an extremely underpowered class. Bad luck. Try a Bright Wizard :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

T3 consists of ONE scenario (that is, there are more, but people only play this one) where the side with more knockbacks (a lot of lava ponds on the map) wins.

Every tier has 1 scenario that's played 95% of the time .. and that sucks. But this is the type of issue the devs have been very good about fixing.

The knockbacks are annoying until you realize who has them and how they use them. Then you can avoid 75% of them. Still though, the lava should be less lethal and more like GW lava.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Oh, yeah, you saw the minimum requirements, did you. Now look at Recommended. Try this game ONLY if you exceed those recommended.

/agree. GW was one of those rare games that ran well and looked great on a modest PC. Warhammer is NOT one of those games .. though they have made improvments since release. My FPS have gone up.

master_of_puppets · Nov 04, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

No, you should not try Warhammer, unless you are rich/don't care about money. At least not now in it's current state. Way too many issues, and honestly even when all the bugs, class imbalances, crappy PvE are taken our of the equation, the game just doesn't really take much skill.

So much 'fire and forget' shit in WAR, almost everything is either HoTs or DoTs.

The game is blatantly biased favoring ranged classes. Melee get blown up most of the time before they can even get in range to get anything done. Bright Wizards are very overpowered and are really easy to play. And apparently there won't be any balance until like mid-december... in patch 1.1. Not sure why balance must come as part of bug patches and not come when its needed.

fowlero · Nov 04, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I'll further re-iterate the system requirements.

If you're looking to get into stuff that has a lot of people on screen (and therefore a lot of animations), which is basically everything group based, if you don't have recommended you're going to get terrible FPS even on the lowest settings.

The game's good fun other than that, pvp will be massively enjoyed by pve players of gw and some pvpers however guild wars pvp is, sadly, still far superior. Just the fps thing has really put me off the game, and since i'm in no way able to buy a new system i don't think i'll be playing much longer.

fireflyry · Feb 16, 2009, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Nicely written OP.

Have seen this on special lately and was contemplating picking it up.

Two questions to anyone who plays it:

1.How is the current meta?Have many of the serious issues been fixed or addressed yet?

2.Do you get any game time with the actual game or is it physical game cost + additional subscription cost to get started?

Not a fan of games that don't include at least a months subscription with purchase especially when, as of the OP's post, it sounds so hit and miss.

Cheers.

Malice Black · Feb 17, 2009, 10:48 AM // 10:48

There is no META lol this isn't GW. Nobody will call you a noob because you don't have a certain skill. There is a free month included in the box. You do have to enter CC details at the start, but if you don't add a subscription before the month runs out you don;t get charged. The game does have issues. Some classes are overpowered, some are underpowered but where is the fun in balance. The game was designed around large keep battles, so none of this 12v12 crap. When you attack a keep, you can be outnumbered 3 to 1, but a quick message in alliance chat will bring anyone free into the battle. Keep battles are great fun, but it's pretty much button mashing while having a laugh on vent. I recommend it to those that enjoy enjoy PvP, but not those that think 12v12 is the shit. Edit whyyyyyyyyy wont guru let me use paragraphs???! Inde joo failz!

ZenRgy · Feb 17, 2009, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

Some classes are overpowered, some are underpowered but where is the fun in balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

where is the fun in balance.

HawkofStorms · Feb 17, 2009, 09:51 PM // 21:51

There are a lot of changes since the OP made his first post.

First of all, Open World RvR (PvP) is a lot more active now thanks to the 1.1 patch. There is a lot more balance fixes and the game is still a lot of fun. There are only a couple classes that are really imbalanced atm (really, most people CLAIM their class is underpowered, but when like 90% of the people on a forum claim their class is underpowered and they all have different classes, that just means the other 10% is the one overpowered).

A lot of fixes are coming up in the next 2 weeks with the release of patch 1.2 which will rebalance and fix most of the class problems. They are also going to add in another 2 classes to the game soon (bringing the total number of classes up to an impressive 24). The crafting system is also going to get a significant overhaul.

Really, the only "problem" with WAR is that everybody expects it to have as much content as WoW does right off the bat... which is just impossible considering how much more time and money WoW has to add content. It has plenty of content, and is adding more all the time. But of course it isn't going to have as much as WoW does a few months into its release.

Now, I want to clarify something else the OP said. While the armor/weapons aren't that varied like in GW (in terms of appearances for example, all swordmaster's armor has a similar style, etc) they're weapons and equipment does have a large variety in terms of stats (which is a major thing that GW lacks with its 15^50 +30 weapons being the "only" thing to use).

Bryant Again · Feb 19, 2009, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Problem with many MMO's like this is that YMMV: Experiences vary greatly.

I can only say from personal experience that I've been having a lot of fun in WAR. ORvR has been largely active with people actually defending keeps (something my friend on a separate server has yet to experience).

Aesthetics wise: pretty solid thus far. Like Guild Wars armor is class specific so you won't see numerous people using a similar piece of armor (although a few items a "bugged" but it makes things more interesting than annoying - for instance, there's an offhand shield that looks like an axe, so you get to see some duel-wielding animations). White Lions kinda got the short end of the stick, though: not only do they look completely different (and worse) from the table top, they also look skinny and lengthy until the highest tier. There's also a dye system, so that's pretty schweet.

For me, my Marauder started looking badass at R11 and continued to look even more badass until 40. Their mutation mechanic is awesome, ranging from tons of totally wicked and sick-as-hell designs - and if I don't like one, I can just switch back and forth til I get one I like. Only thing I didn't like is the axe skin commonly found in T3, kinda dopey looking.

Graphics wise, meh not too bad. Specular makes things look pretty cool for the textures regardless of how low-res they look a lot of the time. In terms of the setting it's pretty 50-50: some places I'm like "whoa" other places I'm like "no". The Inevitable City is amazing, though. It's probably Mythic's most well-done and incredible rendition of the Warhammer universe thusfar. They took a simple mention of it in a very short-story and made it real. If there's one thing you should at least see it's the City, simply mind-blowing.

Balance wise it's decent. Bear in note that it's balanced for a very different format than GW or WoW (with it's arena's in mind): open faction vs. faction combat. If it was balanced in a smaller format it'd be broken to hell, but not so much when you're pretty much basing it all off of what's essentially a huge cluster%@)$

Which brings me to my next point: Don't come to Warhammer expecting a competitive environment, it is not that kind of game. It's main focus is open large-scale battles, and the only thing you'll get close to anything like Guild Wars are scenarios and those get old quick.

So, I'd say only try Warhammer for something completely different. Yeah it's got problems, but few MMO's don't at release. WAR's been having a much luckier start than most, though.

PS: Leveling in the Greenskin areas is fun as hell. Best quest dialog in any MMO I've ever seen. "My magic brings all the boyz to the Waaagh!"