Curse

DreamRunner · Oct 12, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Anime isn't "going downhill" as part of a "trend"; the majority of shows have always been complete shit. I've been watching anime for at least a decade, and the shows back then, on average, weren't any better than the shows airing now.

Part of the issue is that anime and manga are extremely formulaic and standardized, which means that people just getting into the subculture may find it fresh or interesting, but anyone who's been watching for more than a few years has pretty much seen everything there is to see.

Of course anime and manga are extremely formulaic. But as the recent demand of anime since late 90s and early 2000 from western audiences has put an emphasis on creating more shows that are less than average. The success of Dragon Ball Z, Naruto and various other anime has put massive amount of pressure on industries in creating anime that doesn't serve any decent quality other than being a part of the western audience demand. The demand in a sense has created more shows to be formulaic, it has created a mass produce of goods and services where the creativity side of it has died.
Even if you disagree and it maybe has anyways been extremely formulaic, but they're shows which had more freedom in doing something different and new before than the anime shows we have today. What are the chances today, which we are going to get a show like Golden Boy or Cowboy Bebop.

The demand and anime fans aren't helping either --Western anime fans have hooked onto complete shit shows for reasons of it being simply anime. It is amazing that completely shit shows can actually get away of making a profit from this recent social phenomena, that has only occurred in the last decade.

I first started watching anime in 1998, back when NGE was broadcasting on SBS.

Burst Cancel · Oct 12, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

It's funny that you bring up Cowboy Bebop, because that show had massive Western appeal. Good shows are universally recognized, regardless of whether you are "Western", "Eastern", or whatever else.

Frankly, I don't see any of the "Western Demand" effect that you are describing; the majority of shows airing today have pretty much no "Western" appeal at all - not only are they distinctly Japanese in character, they are also heavily targeted toward otaku audiences. For instance, harem comedies and fanservice shows are utter tripe, but there are more of those airing now than ever.

The success of shows like Dragonball and Naruto has more to do with age than nationality. Anime is, and always has been, primarily targeted towards teenage audiences, hence the vast number of shonen/shojo shows. That anime is regarded as childish even in its country of origin is not without reason. You should realize this when you consider your own two examples; Dragonball and Naruto aired years apart, but nothing really changed during that period.

There are still "different and new" shows today - look at Shigurui, or Mushi-shi (or heck, even Jigoku Shojo). Sure, they might be rare, but they always have been. There was no "golden age"; the anime landscape back then was just as bleak and shit-soaked as it is today.

Rocky Raccoon · Oct 12, 2009, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Speed Racer circa 1967-1986.

DreamRunner · Oct 13, 2009, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

It's funny that you bring up Cowboy Bebop, because that show had massive Western appeal. Good shows are universally recognized, regardless of whether you are "Western", "Eastern", or whatever else.

Frankly, I don't see any of the "Western Demand" effect that you are describing; the majority of shows airing today have pretty much no "Western" appeal at all - not only are they distinctly Japanese in character, they are also heavily targeted toward otaku audiences. For instance, harem comedies and fanservice shows are utter tripe, but there are more of those airing now than ever.

The success of shows like Dragonball and Naruto has more to do with age than nationality. Anime is, and always has been, primarily targeted towards teenage audiences, hence the vast number of shonen/shojo shows. That anime is regarded as childish even in its country of origin is not without reason. You should realize this when you consider your own two examples; Dragonball and Naruto aired years apart, but nothing really changed during that period.

There are still "different and new" shows today - look at Shigurui, or Mushi-shi (or heck, even Jigoku Shojo). Sure, they might be rare, but they always have been. There was no "golden age"; the anime landscape back then was just as bleak and shit-soaked as it is today.

Good shows are universally recognize? Absolute balls!
Don't tell me you are someone who believes in cultural relativism? They're TV shows and even movies that do extremely well in the U.S that have done terrible in Japan. The most recent movie I can think of was Batman:The Dark Knight. It failed terribly in Japan. Yet, Golden Boy which I failed to see to be even remotely targeted towards a western demographic, received fairly positive feedback from English reviewers.

You're right that they're not many anime which has a 'western appeal', but western audiences have grown greatly in the last decade. The amount of anime, manga and various other Japanese products have become more globalized, and has become quite commercially profitable for some companies(Pokemon's international success). If it wasn't for some greater awareness of anime in Western nations, would Spirited Away had the amount of reception he had for his movie, an academy award? Even if that isn't true, the amount of anime, manga and other Japanese products being commercially available in Western countries shows clearly that the demand for such goods and services has risen. From what I have seen, this has only occurred since early 2000.

I agree with you that many anime and manga is directed towards teenagers and school kids. I had to express this fact in another anime thread on GWguru.

I never said there was a "golden age", I said there were anime which had more freedom in experimenting new ways.

Burst Cancel · Oct 14, 2009, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Your Golden Boy example only proves my point, as did Cowboy Bebop. By your own admission, they were good shows that didn't target Western demographics, yet were popular with Western audiences. Where, then, is the corrupting Western influence that you are suggesting?

The fact that Japanese cultural exports are becoming more popular globally doesn't mean that Japan is trying to cater to any Western culture. Was Spirited Away popular because Ghibli tried to cater to Western audiences, or was it because Western audiences are more interested in anime? In short, just who is influencing who here?

There always have been, and still are, shows that have "more freedom in experimenting [in] new ways." Nothing has really changed there.

If you have the time, I suggest going through the release calenders over the past two decades or so and taking a look at just what was airing circa 1990 and onwards. I think you'll find that the actual level of quality (however you choose to measure it) was not, on average, much different than it is today.

DreamRunner · Oct 14, 2009, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Your Golden Boy example only proves my point, as did Cowboy Bebop. By your own admission, they were good shows that didn't target Western demographics, yet were popular with Western audiences. Where, then, is the corrupting Western influence that you are suggesting?

The fact that Japanese cultural exports are becoming more popular globally doesn't mean that Japan is trying to cater to any Western culture. Was Spirited Away popular because Ghibli tried to cater to Western audiences, or was it because Western audiences are more interested in anime? In short, just who is influencing who here?

It means the market for Japanese Anime and manga has grown in Western countries. If do you do have a market and a large one that is slowly growing, why wouldn't you put some attraction towards it? I wouldn't say Western countries have a corrupting influence on anime, but it is the availability of exporting goods and services from the anime industry towards the U.S has been increasing.

The Anime and manga industry saw an opportunity of their products becoming more popular in the U.S with Pokemon, Dragon Ball Z, Digimon and Sailor Moon. But, as more fans started to become interested in more anime shows such as Inuyasha, while they're being played on Cartoon Network, the demographic started to buy more and grow. The success of so many shows that have been thrown at the U.S markets feet - the anime industry have been pumping out more shows ever since.

I would agree that culturally, Japan has become more influential in Western countries, but that is because of the economic interests of large distributing corporations. The corporations saw a demographic and have been waiting for the next Cowboy Bebop or Golden Boy. I am not trying to say these corporations are doing anything bad, I mean they are always looking for profit, but as the growing fan-base increases in western nations that latch themselves on towards any shows that has to do with anime. I don't see the anime industry changing their model.