Curse

impulsion · Aug 17, 2011, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Apparently I got an infraction warning for not being constructive, so here is why I think the rules of this competition are stupid:

1. You may not use any party-wide consumables OR personal consumables OR summoning stones.
This is essential the first speedclear competition (that I have seen on guru anyway), the already well established speedclear community which has developed techniques for tanking and so on use any and all consumables they wish. Banning cons strongly deters many people from trying this seriously if at all because essentially it involves a fairly big change in the meta, you are effectively adding 25% recharge to all skills as competitive PvE players know them, as well as reducing base movement speed, attributes and armor.

I presume the reason for not allowing cons is because they cost in game gold, and you think that people who cannot afford them will be deterred from the competition by thinking they don't "stand a chance" since they don't want to use cons. Be realistic here, is somebody with only 2k in their chest going to be beaten because they don't have cons, or because they are competing against people who have done DoA in 18mins? In a competition you should cater to the people that are the best, not the mass market (or what is perceived to be the mass market, speedclearing seems to be about the biggest thing in PvE right now anyway).

2. Do not use any exploits/cheap tricks (though we aren't currently aware of any for this mission). It must be fought through. This means things such as no running past groups you aggro, don't attempt to perma-sin your way to the end of the mission, etc. Make an honest attempt at doing the mission as it should be done.
It is against the rules if I don't make an "honest attempt" at the mission. This is so vague that it means I can be disqualified for pretty much whatever reason you wish. It is unfair on a fundamental level. No running past groups you aggro? One potentially smart strategy for this mission would be to pull all aggro away with a tank leaving just the boss exposed, then spike it as fast as possible and use a speed boost on the spirits. No "perma-sin"? What I'm not allowed to keep enchantments up on the sin "permanently"? I'm not allowed to use the skill Shadow Form? Or do you mean I cannot use the skill Shroud of Distress?

3. You will need to save one spot on the team for a Guru staff member to accompany you
This is not such a bad rule as the others, having only 7 players is not that big of a deal. However, it means that you get only one shot at doing it (or 2 I suppose). There are almost certainly a whole variety of different spawns, some will be better than others. The only real way you can remove this unfair advantage to some groups is by allowing people to resign and go again as they wish. A guru mod being there is only really necessary because of the 2 rules I just said are ridiculous above.

In summary, competitions for PvE players would be really nice and I would love to see more of them, but please don't gear them up to playing the game "as it should be", Guild Wars is a lot more fun and competitive when you try to do it as fast as possible.

Jeydra · Aug 17, 2011, 01:19 PM // 13:19

I don't like the rules either, although I disagree with impulsion and believe Shadow Form, Obsidian Flesh, Vow of Silence, consumables, etc should be banned. But I think you should be allowed to attempt the mission as many times as you want, you should be allowed a full 8-man party, and additional humans should be disallowed. Reasoning:

1. Attempting the mission as many times as you want removes the random factor; you can just choose the run with the best random times. It may force heavy grind, but then this contest itself already favours heavy grind (who isn't going to practice before competing ... ?). This may exhaust the moderator's patience, but ...

2. You should be allowed a full 8-man party, and cheating be stopped in other methods. Example, you could ask the player to take a video of his own run, or to provide screenshots every five minutes so he can't use consumables (the latter idea has already been used before). 7-man party can still trailblaze the mission, but why not use 8 like you are allowed?

3. Extra humans should be disallowed because if they are allowed, immediately 7-human parties are favoured. It doesn't matter that only one player gets the prizes; if you're looking to win the contest you have to get more humans (pressure them bribe them whatever). If mercenaries are disallowed I don't see why other humans shouldn't be disallowed.

I'll probably take part anyway, though.

Jenn · Aug 17, 2011, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimmNinja

Just a quick question, if one of the spirits were to get stuck due to the rare but still present bug in that mission, would that count as an attempt?

Nah - if something about the mission gets bugged, we wouldn't hold it against the contestant.

Jeydra · Aug 18, 2011, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Do not use any exploits/cheap tricks (though we aren't currently aware of any for this mission). It must be fought through. This means things such as no running past groups you aggro, don't attempt to perma-sin your way to the end of the mission, etc. Make an honest attempt at doing the mission as it should be done.

Jenn please clarify this rule; at the moment it is very vague. What is a perma-sin? What qualifies as "running past"? Can a team leave a few players behind to kill a mob while moving on to the next with everyone else? What is meant by "doing the mission as it should be done"?

Bright Star Shine · Aug 18, 2011, 09:51 AM // 09:51

So, you're not allowed to use cons, but can you use Deadly Paradox to keep SF up? Meaning you can still do the tank and spank way, just without consumables.. Because your rules aren't very clear about that.
It says: "don't try to permasin your way to the end" meaning you can't just kill the bosses and skip the rest, but it also says you just have to kill all groups, so tank and spank is allowed then?

Although I have to agree with Jeydra about the not taking the guru mod (not that we don't like you) so we can try as much as we like.

EFGJack · Aug 18, 2011, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Nice idea to have this kind of competition for PvE, it's great that some people still care about the community. It's just a pity that this doesn't quite get the attention it deserves. The rule about having a moderator in the group is not that bad - it's Tahnakai Temple after all. Although it limits the amount of optimal team builds and promotes the use of certain builds - don't quote me on this one but I assume the top 3 6H times will have very similar builds (as long as there's more than 3 participiants). And if one wants to grind for the knowledge you got plenty of time to do so, so I don't really see the big issue.

The one thing that poked my eye is that the reward pool is shared with competitors who play with other people and competitors who go the 7H way, 6H in this case. It's not exactly fair, but then again it's probably not supposed to be a very serious competition after all but a nice fresh breeze. Anyway, good job for doing this GWGuru folks, I haven't been playing in some time now but if I get the time I'll be sure to participate.

Kunder · Aug 19, 2011, 12:31 AM // 00:31

FWIW, this mission is entirely 100% randomness free insofar as enemy spawns and patrol routes goes. The only point at which luck would be a factor is in the random chest spawns which will block a spirit's path 10% (est.) of the time.

Giving players *only* 2 tries is more than enough, asking for do-overs in any competition is laughable. I would argue that any retries for reasons other than the mission glitching should be disallowed. You have more than enough time to practice on your own, if you fail then you probably weren't worthy of competing anyway (or you were stupid and played while you knew you would be having connection problems).

Horus Moonlight · Aug 19, 2011, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Because random dropped connections only occur in the most fanciful of fiction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

3. Extra humans should be disallowed because if they are allowed, immediately 7-human parties are favoured. It doesn't matter that only one player gets the prizes; if you're looking to win the contest you have to get more humans (pressure them bribe them whatever). If mercenaries are disallowed I don't see why other humans shouldn't be disallowed.

This is the part I don't understand (i.e. I agree with Jeydra). You are trying to level the playing field as much as possible but by allowing unrestricted human teams and forcing restrictions on hero teams you are placing a clear advantage. Hell even with class restrictions on human teams that parallel hero restrictions, human teams will offer a level of coordination that hero teams will not have.

I don't know if suggestions are allowed but since there are 3 codes, how about 3 separate pools?

1 pool for non-merc hero teams
1 pool for merc hero teams
1 pool for human teams

1 code for each pool and the team with the best time in each pool gets their respective code. The only issue is that there are 2 Aegis codes and 1 Dragonguard code so there may be a problem when the winner of a pool gets a code for the costume that they didn't want.

[EDIT] Just remembered a question I wanted to ask. You are allowed 1 do-over in case of a wipe, disconnect, glitch, etc. What about if you finish the mission in your first attempt but do not like your time? Are you allowed a second attempt for a better time or is the 1 do-over only for failures?

Venatore Capitum · Aug 19, 2011, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by vader

I don't understand what advantage you are talking about. I can run:

Mesmer Merc
Mesmer Merc
Mesmer Merc
Necro Merc
Necro Merc
Necro Merc

OR

Mesmer Gwen
Mesmer Razah
Mesmer Norgu
Necro Olias
Necro Livia
Necro Master of Whispers

Where is this advantage you speak of? I just asked for another option so I don't have to de-rune my current heroes and then rune my other ones.

Since when Razah is Mesmer ?
Even if you use Razah as mesmer thats 12 points max in mesmer attributes...

E N I G M A · Aug 19, 2011, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venatore Capitum

Since when Razah is Mesmer ?
Even if you use Razah as mesmer thats 12 points max in mesmer attributes...

You can switch Razah to any profession now because of an update.

Khomet Si Netjer · Aug 19, 2011, 08:29 PM // 20:29

are there going to be different categories for winning teams or will it simply be the top 3 times? it would be sad if all of the winning teams are the usual overpowered meta with ritualists, necromancers, and mesmers. how about a little creativity?

FoxBat · Aug 22, 2011, 07:29 PM // 19:29

My theory:

Player 1 dances back and forth to hold attention of togo/mehnlo. Player 2 runs ahead and gathers aggro (with or without shadow form) safely thanks to player 1 keeping togo/mehnlo somewhat busy. Once aggro ball is set heroes and possibly player 1 move in and clear with AoE skills.

Is this considered "abusing the mission" and disqualifiable? It's really more about effectively crowding foes onto a single target than keeping the NPCs alive.

Kunder · Aug 23, 2011, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

My theory:

Player 1 dances back and forth to hold attention of togo/mehnlo. Player 2 runs ahead and gathers aggro (with or without shadow form) safely thanks to player 1 keeping togo/mehnlo somewhat busy. Once aggro ball is set heroes and possibly player 1 move in and clear with AoE skills.

Is this considered "abusing the mission" and disqualifiable? It's really more about effectively crowding foes onto a single target than keeping the NPCs alive.

I doubt it will be a problem. These are afflicted, even in HM they die so fast that melee needs IMS just to get a hit in before the group is already running towards the next mob. Simply running faster than the npcs and teleporting straight in to wipe them out is going to be faster than any SF or similar tactics.

Akhnaton · Aug 23, 2011, 12:10 PM // 12:10

What the hell is the point of complaining about a rule when there are Afflicted Necromancers throughout the mission that would be more than happy to give you a Jaundiced Gaze and strip the enchantment?

Fu8ar · Aug 23, 2011, 02:14 PM // 14:14

I agree with Jeydra and Horus Moonlight where it pertains to the human teams, they definitely have a distinct advantage over a hero based team. The ability to coordinate and move independently gives them a huge advantage.

Bright Star Shine · Aug 23, 2011, 03:08 PM // 15:08

And the fact that Jeydra and others are very experienced in using full Hero teams throughout this entire game and the fact that they know a lot about Hero AI gives them an unfair advantage over any other player trying to attempt this with 7 heroes. Should that mean that they can't compete? If you don't want to bring a full people team, then don't, but don't complain that others do, because it's just as easy for you to round up 6 friends and get going...

Horus Moonlight · Aug 23, 2011, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

And the fact that Jeydra and others are very experienced in using full Hero teams throughout this entire game and the fact that they know a lot about Hero AI gives them an unfair advantage over any other player trying to attempt this with 7 heroes. Should that mean that they can't compete? If you don't want to bring a full people team, then don't, but don't complain that others do, because it's just as easy for you to round up 6 friends and get going...

The argument made dealt with the restrictions and efficiency of 2 mutually exclusive team combinations (full hero vs. full human). How differential skill between players utilizing 1 type of combination has anything to do with what Jeydra said is ridiculous at best. Though I am sure we both know how nonsensical your analogy is.

Jeydra · Aug 24, 2011, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Jenn please clarify this rule; at the moment it is very vague. What is a perma-sin? What qualifies as "running past"? Can a team leave a few players behind to kill a mob while moving on to the next with everyone else? What is meant by "doing the mission as it should be done"?

You need to rule on this Jenn ...

PS: Come to think of it, what's the sense of disallowing mercs but allowing humans?

Jenn · Aug 24, 2011, 01:58 AM // 01:58

We're not going to be drastically changing rules at this point - that wouldn't be fair to anyone. It doesn't really help to go back and forth about whether a human team is more/less/equally fair than a person very experienced with heroes. Use what you think would give you the best advantage.

"Jenn please clarify this rule; at the moment it is very vague. What is a perma-sin? What qualifies as "running past"? Can a team leave a few players behind to kill a mob while moving on to the next with everyone else? What is meant by "doing the mission as it should be done"?"

Part of the reason Tahnnakai Temple was chosen was because of its relatively straight-forward route. You can't progress without Togo and Mhenlo, and there are check points to track the progression of the party (i.e. the boss before each gate that gets opened). Hence, killing those bosses is part of doing the mission as it should be done.

There's also not very much you can 'run past' - another reason the mission was chosen. You're free to avoid aggro where possible, but generally you're going to encounter a bunch of stuff as you go to kill a boss. It makes sense to kill what you aggro simply because you have Allies that you need to worry about keeping alive. So, if you aggro it, you probably need to kill it.

If you want to do 'split party' tactics (and it actually works? Haven't seen anyone try it), go for it. I feel like there isn't as much grey area with the "running past" and "doing the mission as it should be done" as it seems. Again, if you can come up with some revolutionary set of strategies or tactics to get a great time, then go for it! You'll have well earned a prize, then

.

Jeydra · Aug 24, 2011, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Are you saying that tactics like this one are allowed? Because Raisu too is a straightforward mission with NPCs to defend, and yet applying such tactics shaves over a minute from your time (actually it shaves a lot more, closer to 2 minutes). If similar tactics are allowed here I'll most certainly use them.

What is a perma-sin?

PS: I want the 8th hero.