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Dec 13, 2006, 11:19 AM // 11:19
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#1 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Nov 2005
Guild: [CRFH]
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Theories on linking professions to Bloodstones
With the advent of new classes in first Factions and then Nightfall, I've been wondering about how they all fit with the lore of the five bloodstones. According the the lore, we know the following:
1) There is one bloodstone for each of the core casting professions, plus the keystone. 2) The whole point of the procedure was so that no one individual can draw from all four bloodstones. Corollary: No one profession should draw from more than one bloodstone, except possibly the keystone - otherwise, the appropriate choice of primary and secondary may allow a character to do so. With this in mind, the core classes are mostly fairly easy to assign. The Elementalist, Mesmer, Monk and Necromancer are all fairly simple - each one is the spellcaster class drawing from each bloodstone in turn. The Warrior, on the other hand, doesn't use magic apart from the signets, so the Warrior doesn't draw from any bloodstone at all. The Ranger, however, is not so easy to pinhole. Unlike the Warrior, the Ranger clearly has at least some supernatural ability in the form of spirits, and arguably in at least some of their preparations and certain attack skills as well. However, as the Ranger doesn't actually cast spells (without a secondary class, that is), one could reason that what they are doing, while supernatural, isn't really magic. It's something else. Then the Ritualist came along, and immediately presented a problem. Unlike the Ranger, the Ritualist DOES cast spells, so it's harder to consider it as being 'supernatural but not magic'. Furthermore, the Ritualist's powers can run the gamut of what you would expect from each of the primary keystones: Channeling is reminiscent of the powers of an Elementalist, certain spirits and weapon spells cause interruption and enchantment removal with can substitute for the Mesmer (although they could also be from the Necromancer's skill set), Restoration skills can fill in for a Monk, and various life-stealing effects point at the Necromancer. However, the saving grace here is that the Ritualist does all this through the power of the Mists. They way I look at it, the Ritualist doesn't actually do much his or herself - instead, (s)he summons spirits to do her bidding - bringing them directly via binding rituals, binding them to weapons via weapon skills, and the more direct spells are essentially opening a small portal to the Mists and requesting/coercing a spirit on the other side to cast their magic through the portal. So, for instance, a Ritualist casting Soothing Memories opens a portal to a dead Monk who casts a healing spell through the portal. Recuperation, by contrast, actually pulls the Monk in question into the mortal realm, binding it to heal the Ritualist's allies until it returns to the Mists. So, my theory here is that the keystone allows connection to the spirit world - and through this connection, essentially allows the wielder to draw from each of the other stones - but not directly. Instead, the keystone allows its users to call upon the services of one or more spirits that can then draw on one of the other stones on your behalf. Under this theory, the Ranger is essentially a dabbler in the same forces as the Ritualist - as the Factions manual says, "Where the Ranger lives as one with the spirit world, the Ritualist can and will be its master". Instead of devoting themselves to mastering the powers of the keystone, the Ranger simply uses it to augment their nonmagical abilities. Under this theory, preparations become a variant of weapon spells (for instnace, the Read the Wind preparation could be seen as binding a Favourable Winds spirit as a weapon spell instead), certain attack skills may be similar to single-use weapon spells where the spirit is bound into the arrow and fired in one motion (an interpretation that explains why, for example, Broad Head Arrow has a recharge time rather than a limit on how many times it can be used per expedition - instead of carrying a certain number of broadheads, the Ranger calls a spirit to turn a normal arrow into one). So we have two classes using the keystone - the Ritualist as the primary spellcaster, while the Ranger is a fighter who uses the powers of the keystone to augment their skills. The Assassin appears to be similar to a Ranger, but using the Necromancer stone to augment their power instead of the keystone. I initially thought it might be from the Mesmer stone (partially because Assassins receive their blessings from the shrine of Lyssa), but most of what the Assassin would seem to be drawing from the Mesmer stone can also come from the Necromancer stone (enchantment removal, etc) while the Assassin also has poison and a strong focus on teleportation, both tricks that are present in the Necromancer's toolbox but not currently present in the Mesmer's toolkit. Moving onto Nightfall professions, I think the Dervish uses the same stone as the Elementalist - two of their attribute lines are dealing with the elements, after all. The Dervish does also have a sideline of healing, but most of that involves converting enchantments into healing (Twin Moon Sweep, Sig. Pious Light, general healing from enchantments wearing off), which to me seems similar in concept to the Elementalist's Aura of Restoration and Glyph of Restoration. The healing skills aren't producing the healing power directly, instead siphoning off power from another source to provide healing. The Paragon, however, I'm not so sure of. While it doesn't have any spells as such, it does have planty of skills that I don't see as being possible without using magic - Spear of Lightning, Burning Melody, Song of Restoration. Currently, my best guess is that like the Dervish, the Paragon draws from the Elementalist stone (explaining the elemental damage attack skills and, like the Dervish, the Paragon's healing ability, with a couple of exceptions, seems to feed on other skills, in this case performed by the recipient - could this be a hint that the Elementalist bloodstone is in or close to Elona?), although since the Paragon's skills involving the elements are a relatively small part of their identity, they could alternatively be tied to the Monk stone. So, to summarise, my current best guesses are: Unlinked to any stone: Warrior Linked to Elementalist stone: Elementalist, Dervish, Paragon? Linked to Mesmer stone: Mesmer Linked to Monk stone: Monk Linked to Necromancer stone: Necromancer, Assassin? Linked to keystone: Ranger, Ritualist So, what do people think? |
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Dec 13, 2006, 12:28 PM // 12:28
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#2 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Quote:
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Dec 13, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54
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#3 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
Guild: Dragon Slayer Guild [DSG]
Profession: R/
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The 4 non keystone bloodstones represent Preservation, Destruction, Aggression and Denial. Therefore Monks are bound to the Preservation and Destruction stones, Assassins the aggression and Destruction stones, etc.
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Bloodstone |
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Dec 13, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05
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#4 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Guild: Mostly Harmless
Profession: W/
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I agree.
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Dec 14, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44
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#5 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Nov 2005
Guild: [CRFH]
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I was actually carefully avoiding discussing the stones in terms of preservation/aggression and so on- reason being that while it's obvious which profession is preservation and which denial, it's less obvious whether the Elementalist should be aggression and Necromancer destruction and vice versa.
Personally, I'm inclined to think that the bloodstones do have a certain degree of overlap. For instance, every profession has some form of healing themselves, if not others - does this mean that every profession is linked to the Preservation stone? And when you look at the monk smiting line, half of their skills seem more oriented towards discouraging people from attacking rather than attacking directly (Holy Wrath/Retribution, Reversal of Damage, to a lesser extent Balthazar's Aura and Symbol of Wrath...) - this implies to me that the smiting line is simply an aspect of the Preservation stone that can be used offensively, rather than having to call in the Aggression or Destruction stones every time someone deals damage. So, to continue using the Preservation stone as an example: Just because you're not linked to the Preservation stone doesn't mean that you absolutely CAN'T use healing or defensive magic, just that you aren't as good as someone who is. Not being linked to the Denial stone doesn't mean you absolutely can't use counterspells, but someone who is has much more of a focus on it. And so on. And remember - the whole point of the creation of the Bloodstones was to stop one individual from being able to draw on all four - something that becomes possible with dual professions if professions are each linked to multiple stones. Incidentally, in my first post I neglected a few of my lines of reasoning (I wrote that up in multiple chunks rather than all at once, and there were a few things I forgot about when I wrote the later chunks). First is that the thing that actually made me tie Assassins to the Necromancer stone: Assassin's Promise, which gives Assassins using it benefits from an enemy's death - something which is normally only associated with the Necromancer and Soul Reaping. On the other side of the fence, arguments towards assigning the Mesmer (Denial) stone to the Assassin include the Feigned Neutrality and shutdown elites like Beguiling Haze and Shroud of Silence, which are somewhat reminiscent of the Mesmer flavour. Also, I was also considering the Paragon as being attuned to the keystone (the theory being that the Paragon's calls brings the attention of spirits that then perform the requested task, in same cases requiring the recipient to prove themselves worthy by some action before granting their aid) but it does feel a little like a cop-out to simply through everything at the keystone - the Ranger and Ritualist at least have some common threads in their abilities. |
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Dec 14, 2006, 02:26 PM // 14:26
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#6 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
Guild: Dragon Slayer Guild [DSG]
Profession: R/
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I would guess and say that only the primary attributes are linked to the bloodstones, since no 1 type can control magic from all 4 types, as is stated in the lore,
that would make: Strength - Agression, Soul Reaping- Destruction, Divine -Preservation, Energy Storage - Destruction(allows more casts), Expertise - Denial (?), Fast Casting - Denial(?) , Critical Strikes - Agression, Spawning power - Preservation (of spirits), Mystism - Preservation, Leadership - Preservation(?) although others might disagree with some of them, they seam reasonably logical to me Your thoery of the stones being based around the core professions types is virtually the same (if not slightly easier to align to) as saying they are all based on a god (although Abaddon doesnt fit into this unless there is 1 more stone that is 'missing' or not recorded since the old gods wiped the memory of Abaddon from the mortal Realms (as best as they could). However the small problem with the thoery is that, most char types align with numerous gods depending on which atribute they use, the new professions upset your theory and make u struggle to fit the alignment of the new professions and that having a secondary breaks the lore of only being able to align with 1 stone. If it wasnt for the upset over the new professions and the 1 stone alignment issue i would agree with ur theory 
Last edited by Sophitia Leafblade; Dec 14, 2006 at 02:55 PM // 14:55.. |
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Dec 15, 2006, 12:16 PM // 12:16
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#7 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Nov 2005
Guild: [CRFH]
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Yes, the new professions do put a spoke in the works.
The theory that each of the primary spellcasting professions was linked to a bloodstone was fairly well accepted until new professions come in. That's not my part of the theory - what I'm trying to do is see if I can figure out how the new professions fit in. |
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Dec 15, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01
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#8 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: stranded in vabbi this time
Guild: None [N/A]
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i never heard that each proffession could only be bound to 1 bloodstone. the lore is that the gods broke up the bloodstone into four peices and gave to peices to four different races. the idea was that the races would have to work together to gain true magic, but they decided to kill each other for them instead.
Aggression magic is any enchantments or magical stances that increase your attack strength, Destruction magic is any spell that does damage, Denial magic is any spell that cuts off a foes energy or skills, and Preservation magic is any spell that reduces the amount of damage you take or that heals you. any spell can fall under these in some way. |
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Dec 15, 2006, 03:27 PM // 15:27
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#9 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
Guild: Dragon Slayer Guild [DSG]
Profession: R/
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Actually the lore specifically says they broke the magic so no one could wield the power of all the stones
Taken from the Prophecies manual: "Each of the first four stones was the embodiment of a specific school of magic: preservation, destruction, aggression, and denial. Magic would still exist in the world, but the devastating power of all four types together would never again be at the command of one single creature. Those who accepted the gift would have to cooperate if they intended to use it to its fullest.." true it doesnt say u cant gain magic from more than 1 stone but does say they cant gain it from all the bloodstones but if u go by the class skills u can easily classify the skills so that each profession can control all 4 types which therefore breaks the lore. That is why i think the Primary attributes of the classes are the link to the bloodstone rather than the skills themselves. None of the primary attributes can fall under all 4 of the magics. But no the gods didnt give the stones to any of the races, they gave the world the 4 types of magic and relising that this cause mass war since everyone was so powerful, thereful they stripped the powers so that although the warring would continue the reduction in power makes sure that there is less destruction. And they put the Stones into Abaddons mouth (volcanoe) which later erupted and spewed the stones back out (ie. one in Magumma, one in Hells, one in shiverpeaks and where ever the others went to) The return of the Bloodstones appears to be what triggered the guildwars, but unsure as to why perhaps they were wanted to recombine the stones again to restore the ultimate power?? Last edited by Sophitia Leafblade; Dec 15, 2006 at 03:34 PM // 15:34.. |
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Dec 15, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43
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#10 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Sep 2005
Guild: Dark Humans
Profession: Mo/W
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I think you all misunderstood the bloodstones.
My current theory is that the bloodstones are the origin of all magic. The bloodstones send out a constant stream of magic into the world and when casting a spell you spend energy to tap into these streams and use them. This stream of magic is constant so getting closer to a bloodstone won't give more 'magic' merely newer 'magic'. Do note how I used the word use above, not the word control. The mortal races can use these streams of magic but are unable to control them. It's like the sun in the real world. We use it's energy for solar power but we can't control it's energy. Same thing for the bloodstones. They to send out energy ( at a constant rate so that magic is equal all over the world though. ) wich the mortal races can use for their magic. The four main stones send out these streams of energy. The keystone doesn't actually send out these streams of energy. Now think of all the four main stones as parts of any electrical device. Just assembling them won't make the device work. It needs batteries. These batteries comes in the form of the fifth stone. The fifth stone doesn't actually do any work on it's own but is required to make the other four bloodstones work together. Now the gods trapped all magic of the races into these stones. But my theory is that upon reassembling them and performing the opposite ritual the gods used to bind magic into these stones one could set free this magic once more. My theory is that this would cause the world to be flooded with 'unbound' magic. The magic of the stones was slowly and steadily sent out into the world. Should this magic be released then it will en-force flood across the world resulting in many unpleasant things. Think of all corpses coming back to live, fire and meteors falling from the sky everywhere, energy constantly being drained, horrible mutations by uncontrolled healing ( healing too much and thus growing an extra arm :P ) and ofcourse living beings going into extreme frenzies. But imho this magic could also be bound into a living being, using the same ritual the gods used to bind it into these stones. Binding all this magic into a living being would basically turn that being into a god. He would be able to cast spells without having to tap into these streams ( represented by casting time and energy ) and without having to remember how to do it ( represented by skills learned and a maximum of 8 skills of wich 1 elite. ) So basically this being would be able to use every single skill without casting time, recharge, energy cost and all other restrictions applied to us. And the above is what meant with controlling the magic. Simply using it is not controlling it. So the stones are used by every single profession. They are controlled by none. Even interruption and disabling of skills is not controlling these streams, it's merely controlling the individual trying to tap into them and preventing this. But then again, this is just a theory :P. But I do think it matches perfectly with the all the professions, including any new ones that might come. |
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Dec 15, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25
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#11 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
Guild: Dragon Slayer Guild [DSG]
Profession: R/
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nice theory
 but it does go against the known lorecontrol is just another way of saying to having an ability to do something (be it direct or indirect through power over something) ie. using ur ability to launch a flare from your hand. There obversly have been characters in the past who did command all the magics since is why the gods broke the 4 types of magic appart, and the way u describe the use of magic everyone should be able to wield any type of power which makes the gods breaking of the stones worthless. as for the Battery idea, its a good idea but the 5th stone is already desribed as a key stone, and what do keys do, they lock things together or unlock them. However the Key stone could be the key of the realms that keeps them all locked together without falling apart or keeps the doorways of the realms from opening. (as seen by allowing the Titans entrace to the mortal realm) Last edited by Sophitia Leafblade; Dec 15, 2006 at 04:27 PM // 16:27.. |
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Dec 15, 2006, 05:02 PM // 17:02
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#12 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Sep 2005
Guild: Dark Humans
Profession: Mo/W
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Quote:
And the battery was simply a metaphor. I didn't say the keystone was a battery. I said that just like a battery it doesn't do anything on it's own but it's required to make some things work. The keystone doesn't actually send out any magic itself but it's required to bind the four other stones together again allowing the magic sealed within to be unleashed that way. The keystone is imho the key to the four other stones. the four other stones, when put together form the lock. The keystone can then 'unlock' them and unleash the magic stored within them. If someone binds that magical power to himself/herself then that person can direct that power. He/she can decide wich creatures can tap into it, how much power the magic contains etc. That's what I mean with controlling. Basically deciding who can use it and how they use it. |
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Dec 18, 2006, 11:09 AM // 11:09
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#13 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
Guild: Dragon Slayer Guild [DSG]
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Yes u have the ability to get on the train. The ability of movment, therefore u have control ur body onto the train. No u couldnt stop others getting on since u have no control over them, u have no ability to stop them. Even if u had control over the train u would be unable to truely stop them, since u have abilitys to move, etc. the train but not them. True control is to control everything about something, eg. I control my arm there for i use my ability to move etc. my arm. I control flares; I have the ability to create a flare, the ability to project the flare, the ability to target the flare to a point, the ability to intensify the flare. etc. The metaphor with the mill is correct but that is because we have no control over the wind, we use it to power the mill, but we have no control of it, therefore no ability to change the wind direction, its speed etc. |
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Dec 18, 2006, 02:15 PM // 14:15
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#14 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Sep 2005
Guild: Dark Humans
Profession: Mo/W
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Quote:
Flare costs 5 energy. If you don't have that energy you can project, target and intensify all you want but you won't cast the spell. You can control all the projecting, targetting and intensifying but you can't control your energy. You can use your energy to cast spells but you can't control it to go up to 30, increase its max to 200 or whatever. You can even use your energy to increase your energy or increase your max energy but you can't directly control the amount of energy you have, spend and regen. You have to indirectly work through spells, attributes and other effects. You can't just make the choice to have 99 energy regen, 1000 max energy or 500 energy gain. And that's what controlling is. And the stones send out energy, the source of that energy is still trapped within the stones. And the source of that energy is what the gods thought to be to powerfull for mortals. The energy it is emitting is not the same. My thought is that when the four stones are combines and unlocked using the keystones then the source of this magic will be released and one can bind this source to himself/herself. The lock of the stone hasn't failed, nobody controls the energy the stones are emitting. It's a constant stream. You can conjure, project, target, intensify and restore all you want with your spells but the power behind them is a constant factor. And the stone near the door of komalie didn't serve any direct use. It was merely used to channel the spirits of those slain upon it onto the locks. That's imho just a side-effect. The lich didn't gain supreme power because he didn't assemble the stones. All 5 stones have to be reassembled for the source of magic to be released. He didn't even use the stone! All he did was be slain on it, nothing more. The Mursaat used the stone, the lich merely discharged the locks that had been charged through the stone to unleash the titans. But again, this is merely a theory. You may not agree with it but that doesn't mean it can't be true. |
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Dec 18, 2006, 03:18 PM // 15:18
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#15 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
Guild: Dragon Slayer Guild [DSG]
Profession: R/
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Quote:
The game calls it an energy bar, u use energy to eg. Cast things, this is true in real life; I use energy to move my arm. Energy I can control to a degree, I convert it in my body, absorb it, and expel it. However I do not have total control over it. So Is Mana and energy one and the same? The idea of energy being locked away and yet being emitted contradicts its self. If u lock something away there is no access to it unless it is unlocked, if anything I would say these stone generate the energy which is emitted. However it is a known fact energy cant be created or destroyed it is simply converted into different forms of energy. Ofc this is a game so this isn’t necessarily true ingame. You do perhaps have a point about the Door of Komalie being powered by the bloodstone nearby, however the door of Komalie must have been there already , since abaddon was locked away long before the bloodstones were erupted from Abaddons Mouth. So perhaps the Bloodstone there (it is assumed to be the keystone, but perhaps it is not since I don’t believe there is actually any mention of it in game as the Keystone, although I may be wrong there) had no part in the release of the titans or any of the main storyline. Other than the fact sacrificing a chosen person on the stones would result in a large release of power (presumable the power trapped within the chosen), which is transferred to a person standing at the centre of the stone. Theres nothing wrong with making theorys, what makes a theory strong is being able to work ways around holes and conflicting issues  that’s what im good at: offering alternative views to make u think that little bit hard to improve theorys
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Dec 24, 2006, 11:35 PM // 23:35
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#16 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Sep 2005
Guild: Dark Humans
Profession: Mo/W
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Quote:
You're seeing it all wrong .Energy in the energy bar has nothing at all do to do with magic. Imho it's basically the same as IRL. Performing physical actions ( sprinting ) drains it ( sprint takes 5 energy. ) Shouting drains it ( For Great Justice takes 10 energy. ) But in GW there also is magic. The bloodstones emit energy. This energy isn't the same as in the energy bar so the naming might be wrong. So let's call it power. Now next to performing normal physical actions the people on tyria can also cast spells. This is an act of the mind and as such uses energy. I mean thinking costs energy. If you sit in your chair all day and make difficult mathemetical formulas you'll be very tired at the end of the day. Now in tyria you can also think to tap into this energy. You absorb the energy and then form it into a spell. Just like a windmill 'absorbs' the power of the wind and forms it into electricity. This fits in perfectly with the conditions in-game. Being dazed makes it harder to think. Thus casting spells gets harder. Doing a lot of thinking gets you exhausted. Thus some hard spells make you exhausted. So it's like a 3 step program Power emitted by the bloodstones ( input ), spellcaster ( transforming device ) and finally a spell ( output ) Same thing for a computer, you are the input, the combination of all the disks is the transforming device and whatever appears on your screen is the output. And you wouldn't say that your computer was controlling your actions. Putting it into a metaphor like this you could say that the gods were your parents. Your parents shaped you ( gave birth and raised you ) just like the gods shaped the bloodstones. Except that the gods had more control over the birth of the bloodstones. As your parents cant decide to get a baby with 3 ears while the gods could probarly decide to have banana shaped bloodstones ( though this would result in a godly war with lyssa and melandru wanting this and grenth and balthazar opposing it while dwayna sought for a middle ground, chapter 4 storyline anyone? ) |
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