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Old Sep 26, 2007, 06:50 AM // 06:50   #141
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After Primordus, the other great dragons began to stir one by one. The rise of the dragon beneath Orr caused the entire continent to surface, sparking a tidal wave that swept the coastline and drowned thousands. In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land. Only a few years ago, yet another dragon erupted from the northern mountains and flew south over the Charr territory of Ascalon. The land directly below the path of the dragon’s flight was corrupted, becoming a crater of horror. The ground blackened from the dragon's presence and any creatures caught within the wind of its breath twisted and changed.

Although these creatures are called dragons, they are as different from Kuunavang and Glint as night to day—more powerful, older, born of different, unfathomable magic, these horrors are controlled by no god nor any other power known to the races of Tyria. What connection they have to these "younger dragons" is unknown, but they certainly do not possess the mercy or familiarity with the sentient races of the world that Kuunavang or Glint portray. The cycle of their awakening reaches back to the time of the giganticus lupicus, and even further, back into prehistory. The only thing known about these monsters is that they have no pity, no curiosity—no concern at all for the other races of the world. Their only goal seems to be to dominate, to control, and to destroy.
So they are like...two sets of gods? Or maybe those ruled by Menzies and Dhuum?

Speaking of that, I wonder if Dhuum and Menzies are still giving Grenth and Balthazar grief
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Old Sep 26, 2007, 07:26 AM // 07:26   #142
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Originally Posted by Eldin
My basic thoughts:

Cantha

Face it, Factions sucked, Cantha sucked. I don't care if we drop a bomb on them. It was doomed from the start.

Elona

It is sad that an order as great as the Sunspears has neared its end, if not most of Elona itself. Still, it's kind of cool knowing Palawa Joko actually made progress after he ran off at the end of Nightfall.

Ascalon

Poor Ascalon. ANet just really is obsessed with this whole "Charr win. Ascalon LOSE. Ascalon go BOOM. Ascalon go BOOM again, though this time in terms of population (and going down)." Still, Prophecies pretty much proved Kryta to be the last bastion of humanity, and GW2 will continue that tradition, that Kryta truly is one of few safe remaining lands.

GW2 is turning a bit too WoWish. We know how this works out...

Human and Charr fight, blah blah blah:

Alliance: Human, sylvari?
Horde: Charr, Norn
Neutral: Asura

It's WoW but with THREE factions! :O

Then big bad dragon comes along, oh noes, we must team up, kill dragon, no progress made, next day we hate each other again. Nothing special happened.

-----

I basically want:

-Ascalon to be rebuilt
-The races to stop being gay and not trusting one another
-The dwarves to return
-Elona to not be so...well...screwed
-Cantha to be more destroyed than it is now! I HATE CANTHA!
No way, Canthan ruled. I don't care much for Elona, lol.
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Old Sep 26, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52   #143
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This has taken me quite some time to put together so here goes...

In The Beggining, there were 5 Gods and 5 Dragons. (5 Dragons were mentioned in the article, and I smell a Good VS Evil match up here.) These Gods and Dragons were in possession of extremely powerful raw magick. They were capable of creating Life. Now the Dragons were not all too keen on the idea of sharing a planet with equally powerful Beings, so they set out to destroy the Gods. An epic battle ensued and the Dragons were defeated. Defeated but not killed as they were immortals like the Gods. They were imprisoned beneath the earth, ice and oceans.

Now before the Dragons were defeated, they used their raw magick to create lesser dragons, like Kuunvang and Glint. The 5 Gods found this young race and instead of starting from scratch, decided to use them to protect their new world.

Then the Humans were created and then the rest, most of use would already know...

Now what I want to clarify is that Dhuum was one of the First 5 Gods, but was replaced by Grenth, who may have been one of his earlier creations or a powerful dragon that overthrew him for his harsh rule as lord of the underworld. As for Abbadon, I don't think he was a True God seeing as in Nightfall, our heros, mere mortals could defeat him.
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Old Sep 26, 2007, 10:47 AM // 10:47   #144
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Originally Posted by doinchi
This has taken me quite some time to put together so here goes...

In The Beggining, there were 5 Gods and 5 Dragons. (5 Dragons were mentioned in the article, and I smell a Good VS Evil match up here.) These Gods and Dragons were in possession of extremely powerful raw magick. They were capable of creating Life. Now the Dragons were not all too keen on the idea of sharing a planet with equally powerful Beings, so they set out to destroy the Gods. An epic battle ensued and the Dragons were defeated. Defeated but not killed as they were immortals like the Gods. They were imprisoned beneath the earth, ice and oceans.

Now before the Dragons were defeated, they used their raw magick to create lesser dragons, like Kuunvang and Glint. The 5 Gods found this young race and instead of starting from scratch, decided to use them to protect their new world.

Then the Humans were created and then the rest, most of use would already know...

Now what I want to clarify is that Dhuum was one of the First 5 Gods, but was replaced by Grenth, who may have been one of his earlier creations or a powerful dragon that overthrew him for his harsh rule as lord of the underworld. As for Abbadon, I don't think he was a True God seeing as in Nightfall, our heros, mere mortals could defeat him.


He was liked chained down for thousands of years, which restricted a large amount of his power. He was stated time and time and time and time and and time and time and time and and time and time and time and and time and time and time and and time and time and time and and time and time and time and and time and time and time and and time and time and time and time again that he was the sixth god.

What more do you need? How hard he was to defeat is irrelevant to lore, it's for gameplay purpose which is why he's not as strong as he could be.
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Old Sep 26, 2007, 11:04 AM // 11:04   #145
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There's also Menzies, which makes a 7th - he may not technically be a god, but being Balthazar's brother, he would presumably have been around. Although, as a piece of wild speculation... maybe Menzies was actually the god Abaddon replaced, casting him down the way Grenth cast down Dhuum before turning bad himself?

And given that so many of the gods (and family members of gods) have gone bad over the course of history, could it be that one (or more) of the original dragons were good and Glint and Kuunie are their descendants?
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Old Sep 26, 2007, 11:19 AM // 11:19   #146
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Originally Posted by blue.rellik
[/b]

He was liked chained down for thousands of years, which restricted a large amount of his power. He was stated time and time and time and time and and time and time and time and and time and time and time and and time and time and time and and time and time and time and and time and time and time and and time and time and time and and time and time and time and time again that he was the sixth god.

What more do you need? How hard he was to defeat is irrelevant to lore, it's for gameplay purpose which is why he's not as strong as he could be.
No need to get worked up. I missed that point about Abbadon being the sixth god. I actually have other things to do so forgive me for that mistake. About "how hard he was to defeat", I NEVER stated he was not a true god because he was EASY to defeat. I felt that he was not a true god because we DID defeat him. What more do I need? No more, I made a mistake, thanks for clarifying.

So, yes, I was wrong about Abbadon, but what I offered was just my 2 cents. I just felt I did not need to put a disclaimer about this being MY own thoughts.

Menzies was indeed Balthazar's half brother, but it was never clearly stated if he was a god or not. He does not seem to have a major role in the main stories, if that any indication oh his God/Not status. I would guess that he was not a god.

This makes me wonder, how does a god have a Brother? Same parents? Do Gods have parents? A higher God? That would make the 6 Gods siblings!

Or were Balthazar and Menzies mortal brothers? Balthazar defeating the previous God of War and taking over, while his jealous brother turned against him and tried to overthrow him?

I know Menzies probably has little to do with this forum topic, but I thought I'd just put it in, because it may be a clue to the origins of a God.
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Old Sep 26, 2007, 11:21 AM // 11:21   #147
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Originally Posted by blue.rellik
So they are like...two sets of gods? Or maybe those ruled by Menzies and Dhuum?

Speaking of that, I wonder if Dhuum and Menzies are still giving Grenth and Balthazar grief
Maybe they overthrew Balthazar and Grenth?
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Old Sep 26, 2007, 01:26 PM // 13:26   #148
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Originally Posted by doinchi
Maybe they overthrew Balthazar and Grenth?
That would certainly explain why the goddesses are silent - they're busy keeping Menzies and Dhuum from causing trouble.

Or... you know...
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Old Sep 26, 2007, 01:27 PM // 13:27   #149
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EDIT: As an afterthought, having read the article finally, it seems there are five dragons that have arisen so far, right? There are the three we already knew about: Primordius who reigns below ground, driving out the Asurans; Drakkar who reigns in the north, driving out the Norn; and the water dragon in the Charr homelands who terrorizes the east where the Charr and Ascalonians live (he seems to also be known as the "desert dragon" according to the article. The other two are the dragon who caused Orr to rise who is perhaps supposed to be the most powerful one and the fifth dragon lies under the oceans creating evil tentacled creatures to terrorize the seas... Or are those last two supposed to be one and the same?
The article states that one dragon raises Orr, and another rises from the deep sea causing tentacles (!?). Sounds to me like two separate dragons, although frankly the Deep Sea dragon needs to be better thought out IMO.

The Charr "water" dragon (so named because the picture was named that in the fansite kit) could be the one in the Crystal Desert, as it did fly south.

BTW, where did this idea there were only 5 dragons come from? Did I miss something?

EDIT: Never mind, people are just counting the number of dragon that appear in the article. In that case, it's either 5 or 6, counting Primordus and depending on whether the Charr dragon is separate or the same as the desert dragon.

Last edited by Mordakai; Sep 26, 2007 at 01:31 PM // 13:31..
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Old Sep 26, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40   #150
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I really like the lore. I am a bit depressed that Cantha(my favorite nation) has been taken over by a Nazi like leader. It's also sad that Istan and,I think, Kourna have become nothing but vassals to Palawa Joko.

Last edited by 1 up and 2 down; Sep 26, 2007 at 08:46 PM // 20:46..
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Old Sep 26, 2007, 09:19 PM // 21:19   #151
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I really like the lore. I am a bit depressed that Cantha(my favorite nation) has been taken over by a Nazi like leader. It's also sad that Istan and,I think, Kourna have become nothing but vassals to Palawa Joko.
The best stories start out in the direst of circumstances.

As long as we have a chance to save Cantha, Elonia, and yes, even Ascalon (Ebonhawke gives me hope!) the GW2 will be fine.
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Old Sep 26, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11   #152
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I really like the lore. I am a bit depressed that Cantha(my favorite nation) has been taken over by a Nazi like leader. It's also sad that Istan and,I think, Kourna have become nothing but vassals to Palawa Joko.
I know! Cantha rules.

But, it's my best guess that a short time after GW2 has been out and we've made a little progress on the main story arcs, we might somehow gain access to cantha or elona in expansions to the game.

Maybe then we will be able to pick from 2 more playable races, such as the tengu, per expansion.

That would be seriously awesome, and could be possible seeing as the only reason we can't travel from tyria is due to the corsairs on RoF islands and the dragon army on Orr. If those were taken care of, or at least beaten to a certain point, then travel would be possible and we would so pwn up the emperor! He's a damn fool! WHY couldn't he have used the massive army, ALONG with the kurzick and luxon forces to battle the dragons. Before they left they could have smashed the heck out of the jade brotherhood and such fools to ensure canthas safety on their departure, lol.
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00   #153
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So basically, nothing that we've ever done did any good.

Tell you what, I'd like to build a time machine, go back to Elona, ally with Palawa Joko, become Undead, kill all my heroes and THEN go defeat Abaddon with Reversal of Damage and Weapon of Remedy. I'd be in a perfect position to be "alive" in GW2, and in control of the whole continent of Elona.

I don't have the article myself, but please, if someone can, enlighten me:

-We'll forget for a second that you can't divert a river that flows south so that it flows north instead; why would Palawa Joko even WANT the Crystal Desert to become a lush and fertile landscape? He's Undead, he's not a kitten. Wow.
Guess what? The Elon river extends north. What's the chance he went north of the Grand Court and diverted it from the mountains there? Stop restricting yourself to the current map.

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-How can it be remotely possible that the White Mantle are still around over 200 years after their Mursaat leaders were exposed as false gods? Livia even gets her hands on the Scepter of Orr (somehow), and you KNOW she's gonna use it against them sometime between now and then. It's just not even legitimately possible that they're still fighting back.
Just because you have it doesn't mean you could use it correctly. Let's not forget the fact the Lich is a powerful magical undead please

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-This one isn't even a question: There is no possible way that the shithole that is Kaineng's sprawling city somehow produces an army capable of soundly defeating the combined might of the VERY battle-honed Luxons and Kurzicks. Come on, seriously.
The affliction really weakened Cantha's forces. All the afflicted were human once. Let's imagine only a fourth of them are really soldiers. That'll at least triple the current standings xD

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-So only 60 measly years after the order of whispers saves the world from a deranged god and helps bring Kormir to divinity, the ENTIRETY of the Sunspear Order is nearly gone? What?
Half of Elona's army is gone fighting you, The Sunspears were already "wiped out" by the time you reached the Sunspear Sanctuary. Vabbi wasted a bunch of it forces getting rid of the Elonians that invaded them already. Joko had all of those dead soldiers, plus the remnants in the Crystal Desert. Do your math.

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-There are a lot of different questions I could ask about the Charr, but I won't bother. They have a long way to go to explain why the Charr would still be invading the wasteland that is Ascalon over 200 years later. And as far as Adlebern goes... what is this guy, like a billion years old? Gtfo.
Guess what? GWEN happened 8 years after the Searing. You were about 6 years before GWEN. Compare Pre vs post sear in 2 years. Now imagine 6 years of the same. Adlebern probably sacrificed himself in the next year or so. The remaining Ascalon soldiers are now in the Shiverpeaks if you read. The article states it's where the two mountain ranges meet. That means Ebonhawke's fortress is probably near THK and the Crystal Desert now. They still can supply themselves through the Asura, so just try invading a mountain fortress with full supplies in it.

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Originally Posted by Sha Noran
-Why do you strive so hard to "make up" your "own races"? Seriously, you can just call the Sylvari Elves, and the Charr Orcs, and the Asura Goblins (or Gnomes I suppose, if you wanted), and the Norn Vikings. No one would care. If you're not going to do that, you should come up with a new name for the Undead and then pretend you invented reanimated skeletons that have personalities.
What being original is bad? Personally I like these inventive ideas that are similar yet different.

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Please ANet, for your sake: do something right.
They are. You're just looking on the wrong side :P
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 01:18 AM // 01:18   #154
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Um, actually, we do know that the Titans posed as gods to the Charr, who invaded Ascalon as per their instructions. We also can surmise that the Titans were there under orders from Abaddon, who intended to destroy the northern kingdoms by throwing Charr at them in order to weaken ultimate resistance to the fallen god's return.
There is a whole section about this in PCG GW edition pp. 84-86. The short version is that humans drove them from Ascalon and they have been obcessed with regaining it ever since.

The interesting piece I gleaned from this though was the article that was given to them to accomplish the seering. The Cauldron of the Cataclysm. It is said the Cauldron is older than recorded history. The same thing said about the ancient dragons who begin all the devastation in GW2. Begs the question, who created it? Who created the ancient dragons?
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 01:23 AM // 01:23   #155
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Guess what? GWEN happened 8 years after the Searing. You were about 6 years before GWEN. Compare Pre vs post sear in 2 years. Now imagine 6 years of the same. Adlebern probably sacrificed himself in the next year or so. The remaining Ascalon soldiers are now in the Shiverpeaks if you read. The article states it's where the two mountain ranges meet. That means Ebonhawke's fortress is probably near THK and the Crystal Desert now. They still can supply themselves through the Asura, so just try invading a mountain fortress with full supplies in it.
I like your responses, but the article clearly states that Adlebern dies about 30 years after GWEN.

Other than that, right on!
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45   #156
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I like your responses, but the article clearly states that Adlebern dies about 30 years after GWEN.

Other than that, right on!
Hrrmn. That puts him at about 90ish, from memory, and the Ascalonian PCs would probably be pushing 60 themselves, and the youngest among the PCs, being the Istani, would be in their 50s.

Yeah, I'd accept that the former heroes would probably be, if not completely inneffectual, at least no longer up to godslaying capacity by that point...
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 01:51 AM // 01:51   #157
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Since when was age ever a problem? Quite a lot of older guys were pretty damn lethal.
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09   #158
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Well, Aldebern obviously has some powerful magic on his side. He'd probably live to over 100 easily.

I would think our characters would too. But, perhaps something else took them away from Ascalon. I just hope they explain it before GW2.
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 02:15 AM // 02:15   #159
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True, and I'd expect that the heroes probably still aren't exactly pushovers at 50 or 60.

But that's a case of still being powerful despite their age. They're not going to be as potent as they were when they banished the Lich, slew Shiro, destroyed Abaddon and demolished the Great Destroyer. They're probably closer to the point where they can still take on an decent number of regular Charr, but if they hit something closer to being one of their counterparts like a Charr boss they'd be in trouble.

Besides, if the heroes are fighting alongside regular Ascalonian soldiers, the Charr will probably have plenty of opportunities to flash their tiger emote.
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 02:41 AM // 02:41   #160
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Originally Posted by draxynnic
There's also Menzies, which makes a 7th - he may not technically be a god, but being Balthazar's brother, he would presumably have been around. Although, as a piece of wild speculation... maybe Menzies was actually the god Abaddon replaced, casting him down the way Grenth cast down Dhuum before turning bad himself?

And given that so many of the gods (and family members of gods) have gone bad over the course of history, could it be that one (or more) of the original dragons were good and Glint and Kuunie are their descendants?
The original Prophecies manual said Glint was the first creature on Tyria (though I think the Giganticus Lupus or w/e had been around before), placed there by the Gods. Whether they mean the world of Tyria or the continent of Tyria, we don't know.

Unless these dragons are the "true giants", or they are forgotten amongst lore, or ANet wants to make a retcon, then Glint cannot be related.
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