Curse

Mordakai · Sep 23, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

The worst thing about the destruction of Ascalon is this is that even Jeff Strain admitted it was a mistake to destroy the players "home base."

http://www.guildwars.com/events/trad...7/gcspeech.php

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Strain

The importance of giving players a home was a lesson we learned with Guild Wars. Players start out in the Kingdom of Ascalon, an idyllic, beautiful land of vivid colors and gentle landscapes. Early in the game, Ascalon is destroyed in an event known as the Searing, and players find themselves playing through a blasted, dreary landscape of ruins and mud. While this certainly added a sense of drama and loss to the story, players were upset that they could not go back to Ascalon, because it had become their home in the game. In each new campaign, and even more so with the upcoming Eye of the North expansion, we were careful to establish "home" very early and maintain it as a sanctuary for players.

So, now, adding Insult to inury, not only is Ascalon as we know it destroyed, it's in the hands of our mortal enemies: The Charr.

Does Jeff Strain really expect us to make Charr characters just to see Ascalon again?

6am3 Fana71c · Sep 23, 2007, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Calm down, people. There's still plenty of time 'till GW2. Many thing can change.

Kashrlyyk · Sep 23, 2007, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by sindex

snip

As far as I know the HoM will be locked, when GW2 is released.

menti · Sep 23, 2007, 05:33 AM // 05:33

I like the idea with the Ring of Fire. It must look gaannngster. That sucks about the dwarves...I liked those guys. I don't get how the White Mantle would still be around if the royal family is back in Kryta. Maybe perhaps that giant piece of land to the north of Kryta is a hiding place for the White Mantle. Ho hem. Perhaps GW2 is going to put that entire northwestern area to use.

Metal Herc · Sep 23, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

What I think people are failing to realize is 250 years have passed. Thats a long time. Canada hasn't even been around that long. Lot's can change. Look at a map of europe from 1757. I can guarantee you that there will be countries on there that don't exist anymore and the borders will be very different.

Bankai · Sep 23, 2007, 07:48 AM // 07:48

There is a simple reason why the Charr invaded Ascalon. Ascalon and its neighbourhood once belonged to the Charr, not the Humans. They just want it back. If it were the humans who lived in the north, and Charr taking over Ascalon, this move would've been perfectly justified, wouldn't it?

dark_prince2023 · Sep 23, 2007, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

As far as I know the HoM will be locked, when GW2 is released.

Nope you can still get to it via GW1 even after you purchase GW2 and link them together so essentially you can change your future by playing the past.

draxynnic · Sep 23, 2007, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6am3 Fana71c

Calm down, people. There's still plenty of time 'till GW2. Many thing can change.

True. The storyline in the Guild Wars alpha around 2003 is almost completely unrecognisable compared to what came out in Prophecies. They're a little more restricted now because it has to be built off estabolished canon, but what's in the press now isn't set in stone (I think some of the completely-overhauled storyline from back then was referenced in the press of the day, too).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

-We'll forget for a second that you can't divert a river that flows south so that it flows north instead; why would Palawa Joko even WANT the Crystal Desert to become a lush and fertile landscape? He's Undead, he's not a kitten. Wow.

To control the food supplies. He's turned the human-held areas into a desert and his own into a garden... that means that any of the living that wish to remain that way have to either try to take the (heavily fortified, naturally) land from him or accept his rule. The attempt to do the former is probably how the Sunspears got themselves wiped out.

Quote:

-How can it be remotely possible that the White Mantle are still around over 200 years after their Mursaat leaders were exposed as false gods? Livia even gets her hands on the Scepter of Orr (somehow), and you KNOW she's gonna use it against them sometime between now and then. It's just not even legitimately possible that they're still fighting back.

They're probably the equivalent of the Royalists in presearing Ascalon. Everyone but them knows they've lost, and they aren't a major threat, but they're still causing trouble. Good for characters in the single-digit levels to cut their teeth on.

Quote:

-This one isn't even a question: There is no possible way that the shithole that is Kaineng's sprawling city somehow produces an army capable of soundly defeating the combined might of the VERY battle-honed Luxons and Kurzicks. Come on, seriously.

Actually, you've just explained exactly how.

When you think about it, it's actually kind of inevitible. You have an overpopulated city FULL of people eager for more living space (given that sprawling city is about the size of either the Echovald Forest or the Jade Sea individually, the population is probably at least two or three times that of the Luxons and Kurzicks combined). Until recently, the temptation to expand has been restrained by facing other threats (Shiro, the Tengu Wars, and maybe other problems before them) and by the inhospitality of the alternatives. Then, suddenly, those lands start healing, the inhabitants are still busy fighting each other, and there's no heroes this time around to tell them to get their act together and form an alliance. Easy pickings.

Incidentally, it's worth noting that the statement that Cantha is cut off doesn't necassarily mean it's innaccessible, even right from the start. How many RPGs do you know where you're told that you can't get to X but eventually manage to find a way? Possibly through those tunnels the Dredge dug

Quote:

-So only 60 measly years after the order of whispers saves the world from a deranged god and helps bring Kormir to divinity, the ENTIRETY of the Sunspear Order is nearly gone? What?

See above.

It's even possible that those 'dark Sunspears' we hear about are actually no such thing - they're only pretending to be working for him while looking out for a chance to bring him down.

Quote:

-There are a lot of different questions I could ask about the Charr, but I won't bother. They have a long way to go to explain why the Charr would still be invading the wasteland that is Ascalon over 200 years later. And as far as Adlebern goes... what is this guy, like a billion years old? Gtfo.

He's a ghost, I'd guess. But as previously noted, this is my main beef - the implication is that it happens at a time the heroes should have been around to object. Strenuously.

BenjZee · Sep 23, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

this sounds sooo cool.
the lore sounds really good especially when i read the part about the undead corsairs who roam the fire islands. Then they mention something about stopping people goin to cantha. lol
the lions arch part really surprised me and the fact we have a Queen

This is going to be so amazing, i do like the whole sylvari ideas. They are ageless keep old lores. Making sure the human history isnt lost is a major part in the story by the looks of things.
Im deffently making an asura.
Non Humans fleeing because kisu died. this is weird. If we can still be humans, we better watch ourselves.

So, we did our best all those years and it wasn't good enough

... i wander where old Malenko and his fellowship of heroes went to? A young asura whos going to continue where they left off....and how did he become related is beyond me.
Maybe our characters just became too old, they would rather not be ressed as they are still fragile and weak. whatever happens i know this will end up to be an amazing game.

wetsparks · Sep 23, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

-This one isn't even a question: There is no possible way that the shithole that is Kaineng's sprawling city somehow produces an army capable of soundly defeating the combined might of the VERY battle-honed Luxons and Kurzicks. Come on, seriously.

Actually, you've just explained exactly how.

When you think about it, it's actually kind of inevitible. You have an overpopulated city FULL of people eager for more living space (given that sprawling city is about the size of either the Echovald Forest or the Jade Sea individually, the population is probably at least two or three times that of the Luxons and Kurzicks combined). Until recently, the temptation to expand has been restrained by facing other threats (Shiro, the Tengu Wars, and maybe other problems before them) and by the inhospitality of the alternatives. Then, suddenly, those lands start healing, the inhabitants are still busy fighting each other, and there's no heroes this time around to tell them to get their act together and form an alliance. Easy pickings.

Incidentally, it's worth noting that the statement that Cantha is cut off doesn't necassarily mean it's innaccessible, even right from the start. How many RPGs do you know where you're told that you can't get to X but eventually manage to find a way? Possibly through those tunnels the Dredge dug

Another thought on that note, the Luxons and Kurzicks have been fighting each other for generations, how many people do they still have left? And a country short on space with lots of people that they see as "expendable" (like the way the west sees China right now) can easily make a big army that is capable of taking out the Luxons and Kurzicks who would not only be busy fighting each other while the Canthan army is attacking them from behind. So the Canthans would only be fighting part of the army.

Lao-Azi · Sep 24, 2007, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Well, if everything were peaceful, the game wouldn't have much for us to do, now would it?

This is a bigger pile of feces than I'd have expected, but... I can't say I'm upset.

One thing I do find odd is the whole Palawa Joko bit, even back into Nightfall. Where the hell did we start following the undead bastard? Did the fact that he tried to conquer Vabbi just sort of drop out of our memories when we work with him? Well, enemy of my enemy is my friend, I suppose, but it never sat well with me.

Yes, this has no relevance to GW2. What?

Anyway, when is this issue in stores? The 25th? Or is it out?

Frostlight · Sep 24, 2007, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

The worst thing about the destruction of Ascalon is this is that even Jeff Strain admitted it was a mistake to destroy the players "home base."

http://www.guildwars.com/events/trad...7/gcspeech.php

So, now, adding Insult to inury, not only is Ascalon as we know it destroyed, it's in the hands of our mortal enemies: The Charr.

Does Jeff Strain really expect us to make Charr characters just to see Ascalon again?

Sure, Jeff is going to give the human players a home... in Kryta. In fact, the GW2 article makes it clear they're deliberately creating homelands for each of the playable races.

If we go by GW:EN as an indicator of their upcoming game design, Ascalon City will probably be a challenge mission to defeat wave after wave of Charr, for points towards the human faction title track and armor pieces for your "sidekick".

Which begs the question... what makes GW2 a game that GW1 PvE players will care enough to move onto as a sequel?

- Your characters? dead.
- Other major NPC characters? also dead.
- The fate of the world and the various nations? whether you like the future or not, imo it is not really that relevant to what happened in GW1. Cataclysms and lore revisionism (no, this stuff you've never heard of is even more ancient than anything so far, oh and by the way we're going drop a nuke here and there)
- Hall of Monuments? I guess there might be some people will buy GW2 because they've stashed some destroyer weaopns in it, but I haven't met any of them.
- The gameplay? mostly different, along with elements being introduced in the past 6 months, i.e. title track grind tied to PvE skills, armor, what have you.
- Or, will the name Guild Wars 2 be enough by itself?

From the information we have so far, it seems to me they're very excited to create a brand new game, but caring little about the continuity and ties to GW1. And this has nothing to with whether the future is bleak or not - good novel writers should be able to leverage the existing lore rather than to abandon it as what seems to be happening here.

Well, unless you're really interested in Charr ecology and sociology. Then you'll be pumped I'm sure.

arsie · Sep 24, 2007, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Lets put aside the issue of whether current GW lore is good or not, and whether the future GW2 lore will be good or not. All those are subjective issues, some people like it, and some people will not.

The undeniable fact is that this change is probably the most extreme case of a company changing all of its existing lore. You may argue that these are but logical extentions to the current story line, but never in my experience of story worlds, whether RPG, computer games, or novels, have I seen such wholesale overturning of existing lore.

Sure some things change with time, but quite frankly, many things stay the same. Technology might change, but attitudes and personalities remain the same. For most gaming world evolution, its usually the opposite.

One look at EQ2 and one can see almost direct parallels. The hope is that this being so in Anet's face, that they would attempt to avoid the same mistake.

So why the wholesale change of lore? If you think GW lore was weak to begin with, then you'll probably think their writers are weak. That might be one explanation of the wholesale change. Poor writers making poor decisions.

If you like GW lore so far, then it must be puzzling why they would throw out most of their own work. Perhaps their hands were forced, that in order to get funding for GW2, Anet might have needed to compromise creative control to others who think they know better about writing MMO lore.

New head-writer on the job, who feels that the only way to justify his own existence is to neuter his predecessor's work.

While some people says that its early days, and not to worry, I think that the story ideas and game mechanic principles have already been decided upon. Otherwise they'll never be able to meet their deadlines.

Sure, some small details might change along the way, but I think this will be it. The broad ideas are pretty much carved in stone.

One thing for certain, the storyline as is, completely disregards all the efforts and achievements of the current GW1 player. GW2 will probably be a compelling gaming world for someone who is new to the new lore, but GW1 players will have to go into it knowing that everything they did in the game did not make the world a better place, even in the slightest.

It would have been nice if we actually did bring about 250 years of relative peace and happiness in the world, but that does not seem to be the case now. Enjou Pre-Searing, it keeps going downhill from there.

draxynnic · Sep 24, 2007, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsie

The undeniable fact is that this change is probably the most extreme case of a company changing all of its existing lore. You may argue that these are but logical extentions to the current story line, but never in my experience of story worlds, whether RPG, computer games, or novels, have I seen such wholesale overturning of existing lore.

I dunno - I think Blizzard still has it beat with the Warcraft universe.

doinchi · Sep 24, 2007, 09:10 AM // 09:10

I think the storyline is awesome so far. The first RPGs I've played were the KOTOR series and I've always liked playing the "underdog" character, not some prince or king something.

I think the new Dark and Gritty, Post(Pre?) Apocalytic scenario is very refreshing.

drekmonger · Sep 24, 2007, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsie

It would have been nice if we actually did bring about 250 years of relative peace and happiness in the world, but that does not seem to be the case now.

Yes.

The cataclysm could/should be in the moment of GW2 -- the semi-lame Legendary Dragons arise just a few years prior to game start. That creates more drama and outcome uncertainty, while still giving players invested in GW1 the idea that their character's actions made a differences. They bought 200 years of peace. (and it also suggests that to the players of GW2 that their efforts won't be erased when it comes time for GW3).

The fall of the Luxons, Kurzicks, peoples of Ascalon and the Sunspears could then easily be explained as each faction going soft because of these 200 years of peace. For example:

After generations of watching Joko play nice and heal the Crystal Desert, the Sunspears aren't prepared the resurrected Drought and Hunger being unleashed into the heart of Elona. The Sunspears are mostly pushed back to Istan, where they are doomed by a tsunami caused by the rising of Orr. Most of the surviving Sunspears flee to Joko's "hospitality" and have become his servants -- under the mistaken impression that Joko will help to free Elona proper.

The at-peace Kurzicks and Luxons don't have the martial edge to beat back a newly ascendant Emperor's armies. To tie it into the Dragon inspired cataclysm, perhaps the new Emperor is literally a Legendary Dragon reincarnated in a human body. Once the Luxons and Kurizicks are pacified, The Dragon Emperor expels all foreigners, cuts off trade, and begins a new Tengu War (which is more like a wholesale slaughter).

The people of Ascalon havn't had need for a large army or a big Wall anymore. And so when the Mursaat or Dragon underlings come back to play, they have to resort to calling up the vengeful dead from the first Searing (including General Gwen and Price Rurik) for defense.

-- resulting in a second Searing, and a massive army of angry ghosts that will never believe that some of the Charr tribes have been allies of Ascalon for 175 years.

Point is, the accomplishments of GW1 don't have to be erased to create the situations of GW2. The game restarts when the strife restarts.

Mordakai · Sep 24, 2007, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsie

The undeniable fact is that this change is probably the most extreme case of a company changing all of its existing lore. You may argue that these are but logical extentions to the current story line, but never in my experience of story worlds, whether RPG, computer games, or novels, have I seen such wholesale overturning of existing lore.

The problem is, it really doesn't change much at all. I have no problem with a Cataclysm, and with continued strife and war. That I expect.

I guess what pisses me off the most, it's threats our Characters either dealt with (or were not allowed to deal with) that end up causing the most harm:

Palawa Joko. The Charr.

The fact that these are the entities that kill off the Sunspears and Ascalon, just rubs salt in the wound. If you're gonna re-write the lore, that's fine, re-write it. Don't re-use existing threats 250 years later... that just seems like cheap recycling to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drekmonger

The people of Ascalon havn't had need for a large army or a big Wall anymore. And so when the Mursaat or Dragon underlings come back to play, they have to resort to calling up the vengeful dead from the first Searing (including General Gwen and Price Rurik) for defense.

-- resulting in a second Searing, and a massive army of angry ghosts that will never believe that some of the Charr tribes have been allies of Ascalon for 175 years.

Point is, the accomplishments of GW1 don't have to be erased to create the situations of GW2. The game restarts when the strife restarts.

That's an awesome idea! That's a great way to recycle stuff, but still keeping it "new". (although I know many players will not want to see Ghost Gwen, so maybe not).

phan · Sep 24, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

-Why do you strive so hard to "make up" your "own races"? Seriously, you can just call the Sylvari Elves, and the Charr Orcs, and the Asura Goblins (or Gnomes I suppose, if you wanted), and the Norn Vikings. No one would care. If you're not going to do that, you should come up with a new name for the Undead and then pretend you invented reanimated skeletons that have personalities.

I don't agree with this .. at least anet thinks about new things .. else it would just be wow .. i havent seen an orc in the last past 10 seconds .. now we fight big hairy creatures .. and sylvari elves ? come on a tree = elf Oo ??

phan · Sep 24, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

Another thought on that note, the Luxons and Kurzicks have been fighting each other for generations, how many people do they still have left? And a country short on space with lots of people that they see as "expendable" (like the way the west sees China right now) can easily make a big army that is capable of taking out the Luxons and Kurzicks who would not only be busy fighting each other while the Canthan army is attacking them from behind. So the Canthans would only be fighting part of the army.

This doesn't make sense cuz .. the luxon and kurzick [combined] only take 1/5 of the map .. what about all the areas we cant go with our chars .. but it's still there isn't it .. ?

Etta · Sep 24, 2007, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by doinchi

The first RPGs I've played were the KOTOR series and I've always liked playing the "underdog" character, not some prince or king something.

Ah then you knew, who your main character really is in KOTOR, is he an underdog? I don't think so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

The problem is, it really doesn't change much at all. I have no problem with a Cataclysm, and with continued strife and war. That I expect.

The thing is if I want a Cataclysm setting, I would go play Fall out 3. I know the game is still at least 2 years away and anything could happen in that time. I just hate the idea of the world just gone back to square one after the heroes save it time and time again.

If only Kevin Smith is the GW2 story writer. lol