Curse

Mordakai · Sep 26, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

It's hard to say how powerful the gods of Tyria are, since we don't know what they actually can do. For example, is the legend that Melandru created the world true, or just a story to make Melandru look good?

We know Balthazar can open up gates to the HoH, is that "god-like" or just the act of a very powerful sorcerer?

Speaking of the Maia, that's probably a better description of the gods. I don't think they are as powerful as the Valar, at least they have not shown such power (it's possible the gods of Tyria are very powerful, but just don't display it).

The Shelf · Sep 26, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

You're probably right about the gods being more like the Maia, or perhaps they're somewhere between the Maia and Valar "power levels." In any case, my point was that the Numenorians aren't all that special. They just live a lot longer than normal and therefore have more wisdom and "special" knowledge (such as speaking with animals or whatever it is they can do).

But wait... doesn't it say in the manual that the gods stopped creating things at a certain point? That implies that they were creating things and shaping the world like the Valar did in the Silmarillion even if they weren't the ones to create the world originally. I dunno, I'm just pointing things out.

Mordakai · Sep 26, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Shelf

You're probably right about the gods being more like the Maia, or perhaps they're somewhere between the Maia and Valar "power levels." In any case, my point was that the Numenorians aren't all that special. They just live a lot longer than normal and therefore have more wisdom and "special" knowledge (such as speaking with animals or whatever it is they can do).

But wait... doesn't it say in the manual that the gods stopped creating things at a certain point? That implies that they were creating things and shaping the world like the Valar did in the Silmarillion even if they weren't the ones to create the world originally. I dunno, I'm just pointing things out.

Aye, you're right about that. The History of Tyria starts out:

"It was almost three thousand years ago that a race of serpents stepped out of the Rift and onto the soil of Tyria. Unlike ordinary serpents, these moved upright, used language and adhered to an elaborate culture. They had been summoned by the old gods, brought to this world to be the custodians. Their task: to shepherd the other creatures of this land, while the gods continued to create the world around them." [edit. comment - the old gods are listed in another Chapter: Dwayna, Melandru, Balthazar, Grenth and Lyssa]

Then humans came, and less than a century later, the serpents left to the Crystal Desert. [the Forgotten?] "Despite the serpents retreat, the gods never halted their work creating the world, and with the benevolence of indulgent parents, they decided to create magic... they presented it to the humans and the Charr, the Tengu and the dwarves, the minotaurs and the imps, and all the races of the land."

Then comes more strife, King Dorric, the bloodstone, etc. According to the timeline, the gods left Tyria in the year 0 AE (After Exodus).

Edited Timeline from Original Guild Wars manuscript [updated to include Ultimate Guide References]:

10,000 BE (Before Exodus) Last sign of Ginganticus Lupicus (the great giants) walking on Tyrian continent (best guess).

1796 BE Serpents [the Forgotten] arrive in Tyria

205 BE Humans appear on Tyrian continent, [war with Charr begins?]

[??? BE Charr Khan-Ur assassinated]

100 BE High-planes[sic?] human settlements become known as Ascalon.

1 BE Gods give magic to races of Tyria

174 AE Serpents [the Forgotten] leave the world of men [to Crystal Desert]

[870 AE (approx) Charr Burnt Warband discovers Titans, start worshipping them as gods]

898 AE Great Northern Wall built

1070 AE [The Searing] Charr invade human kingdoms

1071 AE Bay of Sirens renamed Sea of Sorrow

1072 [Humans defeat Titans]

1075 [Kormir Ascends]

1078 [Present Day - Eye of the North start]

[1102 (approx) Ascalon City falls, human King Adelbern casts final spell]

[1118 (approx) Kalla Scorchrazor overthrows Flame Legion]

[1165 AE Ventari dies after writing Tablet]

[??? AE Iron Citadel raised on ruins of Rin]

[1328 (apporx) AE Guild Wars 2 Start?]

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Timeline

kmburton · Sep 27, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by sindex

On a side note the magazine does detail that the former ecosystem of Ascalon is starting to come back.

I don't think so. It seems one of the dragons coming down from the north has corrupted it. From PCG GW2 article:

After Primordus, the other great dragons began to stir one by one. The rise of the dragon beneath Orr caused the entire continent to surface, sparking a tidal wave that swept the coastline and drowned thousands. In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land. Only a few years ago, yet another dragon erupted from the northern mountains and flew south over the Charr territory of Ascalon. The land directly below the path of the dragon’s flight was corrupted, becoming a crater of horror. The ground blackened from the dragon's presence and any creatures caught within the wind of its breath twisted and changed.

I would assume this included the resident Charr.

Mordakai · Sep 27, 2007, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmburton

I don't think so. It seems one of the dragons coming down from the north has corrupted it. From PCG GW2 article:

After Primordus, the other great dragons began to stir one by one. The rise of the dragon beneath Orr caused the entire continent to surface, sparking a tidal wave that swept the coastline and drowned thousands. In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land. Only a few years ago, yet another dragon erupted from the northern mountains and flew south over the Charr territory of Ascalon. The land directly below the path of the dragon’s flight was corrupted, becoming a crater of horror. The ground blackened from the dragon's presence and any creatures caught within the wind of its breath twisted and changed.

I would assume this included the resident Charr.

True, but it could be localized to just the Dragon's flight path, and not effect all of Ascalon. (although "crater of horror" sounds ominous).

We'll just have to wait and see. I think we'll get the chance to find some lost Flame Swords, bury the Ghosts of Ascalon, and maybe, just maybe, found the city again! (or, more likely, find a lost heir of Ascalon....)

DreamRunner · Sep 27, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Evil is such a stupid word. The charr aren't evil, they are just different. They see humans are not only a food source but as lowly as something you can chuck away or eat later.

I can understand why people think they are evil, having the searing and all, but charr have different morals and from that the humans consider the charr evil. I would say I don't like the charr for killing, murdering and destroying ascalon to what it was, but the point is, good and evil are just ethics and morals clashing together between two cultures.

draxynnic · Sep 27, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

You know, I do find this thing about the Charr being antagonistic towards all gods, even before the rise of the Shaman caste, to be interesting. Did they get burned by godlike entities - possibly these dragons - before they even encountered humanity? Are they so embarassed about having been defeated by "mice" the first time around that they rationalise to themselves that it had to be due to divine backing, even though according to history it was humanity that had upset the balance that the gods had originally estabolished, a balance that presumably included a space for the Charr? Or are the Charr just that vicious, aggressive, and possibly paranoid that they see anything that could possibly compete with them for the position of top of the food chain as a foe to be destroyed... implying that the pseudo-alliance with the Norn is simply a convenience while the Charr have bigger fish to fry?

mazey vorstagg · Sep 27, 2007, 06:03 AM // 06:03

So basically, Charr are the ultimate atheists!!!

draxynnic · Sep 27, 2007, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazey vorstagg

So basically, Charr are the ultimate atheists!!!

Not quite. Atheists say there are no gods, the Charr are apparently out to kill them.

Cebe · Sep 27, 2007, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Are Charr "Evil"?

Some of them are more evil than others.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Mordakai · Sep 28, 2007, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Updated thread with Charr timeline and re-named thread to better represent the current discussion.

Woden · Oct 06, 2007, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Something GW:EN did reasonably well (and is necessary if these races are going to be playable) was to show that while there are basic shared traits among each race, they are made of of individuals, not just stereotypes. The Asura are stuck up sure, but Vekk shows us they're capable of more on a personal level. The Norn are stubborn isolationists, but Jora seemed quite capable of befriending and joining a party. Likewise, while Pyre is very much a typical Charr, he sees value in remaining with the player, and during the epilogue, even says that he will not aim at him/her should they meet in battle one day.

This is important in that it moves these races out of the "one-dimensional villain" territory, and more toward a fully fleshed out playable race. There's no such thing as an evil race, only evil decisions made by societies and individuals within those races. With the right motivation, even a Charr could make the right decisions (by human standards) instead. Anet has their work cut out for them, turning a group of monsters from Prophecies into a fully realized compelling race, but they're on the right track I think.

draxynnic · Oct 06, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Incidentally, to backtrack a little, something that just came to mind...

The Charr aren't the only race that is out for world. According to the lore we've been given, the Asura also have ambitions to rule the world with the other races as slaves or servants. They're just being subtler about it than the Charr...

Mordakai · Oct 08, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Incidentally, to backtrack a little, something that just came to mind...

The Charr aren't the only race that is out for world. According to the lore we've been given, the Asura also have ambitions to rule the world with the other races as slaves or servants. They're just being subtler about it than the Charr...

That's a good point. I guess it's hard to take the Asura threat seriously since they are so.... small.

I actually respect the Charr the more I think about it...

IF the Charr were really at war with the old gods, and the gods sent the humans to kill the Charr...

Then we have a classic tale of a race surviving, no, thriving against all odds. Kind of inspirational, in a strange way.

Hyper Cutter · Oct 08, 2007, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Incidentally, to backtrack a little, something that just came to mind...

The Charr aren't the only race that is out for world. According to the lore we've been given, the Asura also have ambitions to rule the world with the other races as slaves or servants. They're just being subtler about it than the Charr...

At least the Asura don't eat people, as far as we know...

Mordakai · Oct 08, 2007, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

At least the Asura don't eat people, as far as we know...

They do have sharp teeth...

and they are known to use humans in deadly experiments. Plus, they call humans "bookah" or monster. It's used humorously in the game, but if they really believe it, then why couldn't Asura be considered "evil"?

Oh, and there's also this:

Quote:

Asura are semi-divine creatures in Hinduism and Buddhism. See the Wikipedia articles about Asuras in Hinduism and Asuras in Buddhism. The Guild Wars Asura may or may not be inspired by these. In Buddhism, one of the six realms is the realm of the Asuras, who are constantly fighting. Curiously enough, Asura loosely translates to titan, demigod or giant in the Buddhist context. In Hinduism, it translates to demon.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Asura

The Shelf · Oct 08, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

They do have sharp teeth...

and they are known to use humans in deadly experiments. Plus, they call humans "bookah" or monster. It's used humorously in the game, but if they really believe it, then why couldn't Asura be considered "evil"?

Oh, and there's also this:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Asura

Creepy...

It's gonna be so much fun to play an Asuran Assassin (if 'Sins are still in). I just hope they're not limited to spellcasting builds.

Anyway, I think the Asurans are far more dangerous than the Charr. They may not eat people, but they are more subtle and that makes them more dangerous. They've already begun the process of taking over the world by the time GW2 begins because they've got good trade relations with all the races and they own a monopoly on what will become an important commodity -- Asuran gates. If someone ticks them off, they can deny access to the gates and even convince the other races to attack them if need be.

The Asurans will never own the world in name, but they will own the world in a way because they'll hold all the strings, so to speak.

There's more I could say on this, but I think everyone gets the picture.

mazey vorstagg · Oct 08, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Anyway, I think the Asurans are far more dangerous than the Charr.

Well, the outpost guards speak of building a sky-lowerer. If they ever completed such a project they could effectively hold the whole of tyria to ransom by limiting their sunlight.

draxynnic · Oct 09, 2007, 02:03 AM // 02:03

I suspect that one's going to fail - but it was also made when the Asura were new to the surface and didn't know the rules. In trying, they learn them.

Come GW2, they'll have almost certainly learned about and adapted to life on the surface and have developed more practical projects.

blue.rellik · Oct 09, 2007, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

At least the Asura don't eat people, as far as we know...

I dunno, Gadd's teeth look pretty funky to me

I always though he was going to take a bite out of Livia whenever they were talking

That said I would be gnawing at Livia's chest if we weren't being hounded by Destroyers