Curse

Mordakai · Sep 22, 2007, 07:50 PM // 19:50

This discussion has evolved to become a more detailed discussion of Charr culture and history based on in-game examples and the new PCGamer Guild Wars guide.

Especially of interest is the fact that apparently the Charr were at war with the old gods, before the humans even arrived. This leads to some interesting thoughts:

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

You know, I do find this thing about the Charr being antagonistic towards all gods, even before the rise of the Shaman caste, to be interesting. Did they get burned by godlike entities - possibly these dragons - before they even encountered humanity? Are they so embarassed about having been defeated by "mice" the first time around that they rationalise to themselves that it had to be due to divine backing, even though according to history it was humanity that had upset the balance that the gods had originally estabolished, a balance that presumably included a space for the Charr? Or are the Charr just that vicious, aggressive, and possibly paranoid that they see anything that could possibly compete with them for the position of top of the food chain as a foe to be destroyed... implying that the pseudo-alliance with the Norn is simply a convenience while the Charr have bigger fish to fry?

Also, here is a revised Timeline, with Charr events listed:

(Edited Timeline from Original Guild Wars manuscript [updated to include Ultimate Guide References])

It's unknown when the Charr arrived in Tyria. The Ecology article states they fought with the Forgotten, the only real threat to the Charr until humans arrive. They could have been on Tyria before the Forgotten arrive, or after.

10,000 BE (Before Exodus) Last sign of Ginganticus Lupicus (the great giants) walking on Tyrian continent (best guess).

1796 BE Serpents [the Forgotten] arrive in Tyria

205 BE Humans appear on Tyrian continent, [war with Charr begins?]

[??? BE Charr Khan-Ur assassinated]

100 BE High-planes[sic?] human settlements become known as Ascalon.

1 BE Gods give magic to races of Tyria

174 AE Serpents [the Forgotten] leave the world of men

[870 AE (approx) Charr Burnt Warband discovers Titans, start worshipping them as gods]

898 AE Great Northern Wall built

1070 AE [The Searing] Charr invade human kingdoms

1071 AE Bay of Sirens renamed Sea of Sorrow

1072 [Humans defeat Titans]

1075 [Kormir Ascends]

1078 [Present Day - Eye of the North start]

[1102 (approx) Ascalon City falls, human King Adelbern casts final spell]

[1118 (approx) Kalla Scorchrazor overthrows Flame Legion]

[1165 AE Ventari dies after writing Tablet]

[??? AE Iron Citadel raised on ruins of Rin]

[1328 (approx) AE Guild Wars 2 Start?]

__________________________________________________ ______________________

Original Question: Are Charr "Evil"?

EDIT: After much thought, I have decided that while in human terms, the Charr are "evil"; they do not consider themselves as evil. I do think they wish to conquer the world of Tyria, despite their respect of Norn and Asura, I don't think this would stop them from going to war against either race if it suited their purposes.

As many posters have noted, we have not seen all Charr or heard their side of the story. Much remains unanswered.

Malchior · Sep 22, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Pfft @ the charr

Even Pyre, who is meant to be less evil, still calls me "Meat". If it were me in that clip I would have helped Gwen, lol.

In my opinion the charr are evil, seeing as they have no allies (To my knowledge), and are disliked/not respected by anyone who comes into contact with them. Ascalonians, Krytans, Orrians, Norn, whoever.

The Norn look down on the charr most likely for being inferior, but clearly dislike them. The charr simply try to better everyone and everything around them, not caring what they do. That's pretty evil to me.

Mordakai · Sep 22, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchior

Pfft @ the charr

Even Pyre, who is meant to be less evil, still calls me "Meat". If it were me in that clip I would have helped Gwen, lol.

In my opinion the charr are evil, seeing as they have no allies (To my knowledge), and are disliked/not respected by anyone who comes into contact with them. Ascalonians, Krytans, Orrians, Norn, whoever.

The Norn look down on the charr most likely for being inferior, but clearly dislike them. The charr simply try to better everyone and everything around them, not caring what they do. That's pretty evil to me.

And yet, according to the PC Gamer SPOILER, the Norn actually allow the Charr to raid Kryta!

It makes no sense to me either.

Malchior · Sep 22, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

And yet, according to the PC Gamer SPOILER, the Norn actually allow the Charr to raid Kryta!

It makes no sense to me either.

Hmmm, That is odd.

Well the Norn are always looking for the best hunts, and the charr can't offer that to them. So perhaps they just didn't see the point in fighting them?

Free Runner · Sep 22, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

As i said the Charr are evil from a humans perspective. They believe in victory at any cost which means they dont have feelings in the battle - they will kill as long as victory is ensured.

Charr have free will but i see the Charr as being brought up to see humans as nothing - a good Charr to us will still treat a human like dirt. Its the Charrs culture imo.

As for the Norn - they look upon size as a challenge. They dont care if somethings going to attack the "small" humans. If its more trouble than a challenge its not worth it to them. Would you say thats evil or just Norn culture?.

Malchior · Sep 22, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

you have a point, but the charr live in this world with countless other things, you think they'd learn some basic manners, lol. Like, pl0x dun nuuk ascal0n

Etta · Sep 23, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

As i said the Charr are evil from a humans perspective.

QFT.

It's about where you stand, who you are and how you look at things.

The Shelf · Sep 23, 2007, 12:36 AM // 00:36

I like to think of the Charr as a cross between the Klingons of Star Trek and the Orcs of LotR. They're similar to orcs because they have no honor and will use dirty tricks whenever it suits them, but they're like Klingons in that they love fighting and war. I know, the Klingon resemblance is hard to see because Klingons are all about honor, but if you can picture a Klingon that has no sense of honor, then I think that would be the Charr.

Really, I see the Charr as the anti-human. They're almost completely opposite of us. As such, I don't think anyone will ever try to play them to be the hero, but rather to be the anti-hero. Anyone familiar with comics should definitely know what I mean. Venom (from Spider-man) was portrayed as an anti-hero for a long time.

Basically, that sums up the role that I think the Charr players will fulfill in GW2 -- the anti-hero. They're not villains anymore, but they're not quite heroes yet either, they're anti-heroes. They do good when it suits them.

Picture a typical party that has one character of every race, and you'll likely see the human as the leader, the Asuran as the brainiac, the Norn as the warrior, the Sylvari as the voice of reason, and the Charr as the obnoxious jerk who no one wants around but no one can do without due to the skillset he brings to the table.

Here's another way to think of it. The Asurans balance out the Norn. The Sylvari balance out the Charr. And the humans are balanced already because we always manage to span the personality gamut.

Mordakai · Sep 23, 2007, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Shelf

I like to think of the Charr as a cross between the Klingons of Star Trek and the Orcs of LotR. They're similar to orcs because they have no honor and will use dirty tricks whenever it suits them, but they're like Klingons in that they love fighting and war. I know, the Klingon resemblance is hard to see because Klingons are all about honor, but if you can picture a Klingon that has no sense of honor, then I think that would be the Charr.

They are not really a cross of Klingon and Orc, they are Orc. Anything weaker than them is not worth respecting, they have no honor, and they exist to destroy. Actually, the LOTR orc is a great analogy: No one ever worried about orc rights in LOTR. No one cared about their "point of view." They were evil. These are not WoW orcs, with a colorful history, honor, and redeeming characteristics. Thats why WoW orcs work as a playable race, and currently at least, Charr do not. It would be like having one Chaotic Evil character in a party of Good characters. Anyone who's played D&D knows how well that works out...

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Shelf

Really, I see the Charr as the anti-human. They're almost completely opposite of us. As such, I don't think anyone will ever try to play them to be the hero, but rather to be the anti-hero. Anyone familiar with comics should definitely know what I mean. Venom (from Spider-man) was portrayed as an anti-hero for a long time.

True, and that's why I clarify my point with "at this time." Of course it's possible for the Charr to turn "good" before GW2 goes live, but then that raises another question: Would this satisfy people who want to play Charr? IMO, Anet has painted themselves in a corner: They either have to re-define the Charr race as it is currently known, or they will have a radical different game where the Player no longer does "good" things. (as defined by current Guild Wars).

Eldin · Sep 23, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53

The LotR orcs need to burn. They're basically zombies covered in feces and the IQ of a tomato.

I prefer Warcraft orcs, whom are opposites basically - they have honor and whatnot, though this background is not truly explored until WC3.

mazey vorstagg · Sep 23, 2007, 06:13 AM // 06:13

I really like charr. In the Gwen and Pyre discussions he I always agree with what he's saying, not the weak and angry Gwen.

I think it'll be like WoW. In WoW the undead you play as are enemies of the alliance (who in a traditional view would be the good guys, since they're humans) but the undead you play as have suffered as they strove to free themselves from the dominating Lich King and essentially won their freedom. They have feelings like normal people and have a strict code of honor and government. They're not just mindless killing machines like the Urak Hai, for example.

I GW2 the Charr will most likely be very factional. You'll fight Charr and they'll be Charr outposts that are neutral with you. I also expect, that different players will experience different hostilities/friendship depending on their race/title. Obviously if you were a pure Ascalon that wanted nothing but revenge you could probably go through the whole game with Charr as your foes but if you made the effort you could get to know some factions and reap the rewards.

Malchior · Sep 23, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32

<--- Pure Aslcalonian

Yes, I want the charr to burn, and in the clip between Gwen and caged Pyre, I was like "Yes! Go Gwen! Have at the b**tard!"

Then my character had to step in (Laaaame). first place i went when the full GW:EN game came out was the charr home lands, lol. But sadly my killing spree came to a quick end when I reached points in the game that my graphics driver couldn't process and my GW program would shutdown when trying to enter said areas.

Since then I've stopped playing GW:En really. Until I get my new computer at least. The charr like fire? Oh, I'll give them plenty of it...

Charr · Sep 23, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchior

<--- Pure Aslcalonian

Yes, I want the charr to burn, and in the clip between Gwen and caged Pyre, I was like "Yes! Go Gwen! Have at the b**tard!"

Then my character had to step in (Laaaame). first place i went when the full GW:EN game came out was the charr home lands, lol. But sadly my killing spree came to a quick end when I reached points in the game that my graphics driver couldn't process and my GW program would shutdown when trying to enter said areas.

Since then I've stopped playing GW:En really. Until I get my new computer at least. The charr like fire? Oh, I'll give them plenty of it...

Me guess you are one of those screaming "KILL ALL THE LUXON/KURZICK SCUM" in AB?
Anyhow, Charr arent evil by default, they were only mislead by the Titans to invade the human world, but when they realized what they have done, it was to late to turn back because they know that even if they would leave the human lands humans would still want vengeance for what they have done, and even if some of them wanted to turn back after they discovered that the Titans weren't gods they were quickly silenced by the Shamans.
But now with Titans exposed as frauds, and Shamans dead it is possible for Charr to turn a new page.

Malchior · Sep 23, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Not really. we're still the worthless lower life form in their opinion and they continue to kill us instead of trying to negotiate. If they were that sorry they would have tried to make su understand instead of sending more warbands through the far shiverpeaks.

Charr · Sep 23, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchior

Not really. we're still the worthless lower life form in their opinion and they continue to kill us instead of trying to negotiate. If they were that sorry they would have tried to make su understand instead of sending more warbands through the far shiverpeaks.

They send Warbands on the Ebon Vanguard, a unit that exist only to destroy them, so I really doubt Vanguard were in a mod to negotiate.

Giga Strike · Sep 23, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

the charr aren't really evil. they are being controlled by the shaman caste who want to take over the world. the rest of them...well they're not "nice" but they're not evil.

Malchior · Sep 23, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

The charr made no attempt to right their wrong. I think they would still destroy ascalon, but just not for the reasons they did while under the shaman's power.

Mordakai · Sep 23, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

SPOILER

For the record, the Charr do destroy Ascalon before GW2 (save "Ghost Ascalon City" itself). See my other thread, PCGamer Ultimate GW2 Spoilers for details. As it looks now, the Charr won't be turning good anytime soon.

AW Lore · Sep 23, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

SPOILER

For the record, the Charr do destroy Ascalon before GW2 (save "Ghost Ascalon City" itself). See my other thread, PCGamer Ultimate GW2 Spoilers for details. As it looks now, the Charr won't be turning good anytime soon.

but you have to remember that the lands were ascalon is built, belonged to the charr before we pushed them back.

The Shelf · Sep 23, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by AW Lore

but you have to remember that the lands were ascalon is built, belonged to the charr before we pushed them back.

Aye, the Charr likely held all of Ascalon before humans even arrived on Tyria. The first bit of land that the humans took when they arrived in Tyria was Ascalon. And the manual says that the Charr and humans have always fought, likely due to the human "invasion" and them settling in Charr territory.

Originally, the Charr probably just fought to get their land back, but over the centuries, that desire probably evolved into a natural hatred toward humans. The titans capitalized on this natural hatred and stirred the flames to the point that the Charr successfully seared the land.

By the end of Eye of the North, it seems that Pyre and his ilk no longer hate the humans outright because they have learned to respect them, but they still don't exactly like humans and probably never will. That doesn't mean they wouldn't show up in interspecies parties in GW2. The Norn don't particularly like humans or Charr, but they deal with them because they have learned to respect them (at least to a certain degree).

Didn't someone on these forums say that the Charr have four different sects or something like that? That combined with their religious views are a clear sign of culture, however crude it may be. The Charr may be ruthless, but they are not savage animals or anything. I think a large part of the problem is just a misunderstanding between the two races which has led to an inbred sense of hatred.

Honestly, you know what I think? Mordakai, this part is particularly aimed at you since you seem to be the most vocal disapprover of the outlook on the Charr species in GW2. ANet can very easily sidestep all your concerns by doing something very simple. Make one of the four groups of Charr (probably one that we have never met before) desire peace with all the species. Problem solved. Just make that group curious about other species, and have them desire more peaceful relations. So far we've only seen the more aggressive Charr, but there's no reason to think that the entire species is that aggressive. There can be more peaceful ones.

Here's what I think our purpose in GW2 will be: bring peace among the species. That's it. Pretty much every race except the Sylvari and Asurans are in conflict with another species or distrustful of other species. The few people who want peace among the species will be our own characters and a few NPCs. We'll basically be putting out little fires here and there, so to speak, which will be the smaller story arcs that ANet was talking about doing. There's no reason why there can't be Charr doing that too, even with the spoilers we've seen so far.

EDIT: Sorry, I had to add one more thing...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Anything weaker than them is not worth respecting, they have no honor, and they exist to destroy.

So explain why Pyre helped rescue the Ebon Vanguard if he has no honor, and explain why he stuck with the heroes through the end of GWEN if he finds them not worth respecting. Keep in mind, even the Norn don't respect weak things. They'll kill you if you're not strong enough to fend them off. The Charr are no more evil than the Norn. Just 'cause there are a few bad eggs in a bunch doesn't make them all bad. Look at how merciless some humans can be. So far we've only come into contact with the Charr military. You think their civilians are as heartless as that?