Curse

toastgodsupreme · Jun 29, 2008, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaje vhanli

I don't see how you can condemn the stories of the other games on one hand and then praise GW:EN's writing on the other hand. Absolutely, GW:EN's story was more three dimensional than the other stories, but the writing still had the same stereotypical archetypes, cliché events and conflicts, dry dialogue and mediocre voice acting. At best, the finished script looks like a rough first draft.

because in direct comparison to the other three, it's fabulous. lol.

aaje vhanli · Jun 29, 2008, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

I have written fan fics for other genres before, as well as been in an organization that had regular writing competitions. That said, 80% of fan fics ARE terrible. However, there was a small group of around 10 people (myself included) who were fairly educated and could write a compelling, believable (within the universe we were writing about), and interesting piece.

Really, fan fics, like any form of creative writing, is a talent/skill that requires practice to develop successfully.

Fixed for spelling

I'm just being facetious though. I will always be the first to say that there's always an exception. In the case of fan fics, I simply have not encountered that exception.

None the less, to each his own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

because in direct comparison to the other three, it's fabulous. lol.

Well, GW:EN is only an expansion on the Prophecies story. Ultimately, they had a lot of time to learn with the other games and apply these lessons to GW:EN. Imagine how much better the Factions story would be with an expansion for Cantha, or how much better Nightfall would be with an expansion for Elona.

I don't know about fabulous though... GW:EN had all the same flaws it was just better thought-out and had a lot to expand upon.

Nightow · Jun 29, 2008, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Well, I'd love to get into the lore more often but I feel that it has it's short comings and holes.

For instance, one of the lesser known links between Proph. and EotN is the quest, Unspeakable, Unknowable. In this quest, we retrieve the Tome of the Rubicon This tome is an ancient Dwarven artifact that is buried deep within Sorrow's Furnace. The Tome holds the true name of the Great Destroyer. In the quest Unspeakable, Unknowable, the Stone Summit seek to unearth this Tome and learn the true name of the Great Destroyer to use it for their nefarious purposes. High Priest Alkar enlists the aid of players in stopping them and burying the Tome deep within the ruins of the Stone Basilica.

Now, before EotN came out I thought to myself, "Wow, this is awesome how they can take a small facet of the Proph. storyline and create an expansion from it, filled with it's own lore. I wonder who exactly unearthed the tome and uttered the name of the Great Destroyer. Speaking of which, I wonder what it's name actually is."

Do we ever find out who unearthed the tome? No.
Do we ever find out who uttered the name of the Great Destroyer? No.
Do we ever learn what the true name of the Great Destroyer is? No but we find out who his boss is.
Does the EotN dialog even mention the quest which it was based on? No.

Other questions were also left unanswered but it's late and I'm too tired to list any more examples right now. I think most people here can understand where I'm coming from with this. Like I said before, I'd love to delve more and more into the world of Guild Wars but it's shortcomings leave me less than appealed.

EDIT: In b4 "Wait for GW2."

gremlin · Jun 29, 2008, 07:36 AM // 07:36

A good tip for Anet would be to hire some hardcore roleplayers to write their lore.
Nothing wrong with making a roleplaying element to the game for some to enjoy and others to ignore and if the lore is accurate enough and deep enough to provide an insite into the game then I welcome it.

I became fascinated by roleplaying well before D&D arrived on the scene and have spent far more hours than I care to remember thinking up plots sub plots and sub sub plots.
We wrote enough lore to fill several books, much of it crap but some good stuff came out of it.

jzupko · Jun 29, 2008, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

A good tip for Anet would be to hire some hardcore roleplayers to write their lore.

Um, if you look up the ANet writers on the Wiki, you'll see that they pretty much are hardcore roleplayers. In particular, see:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Bobby_Stein
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jeff_Grubb

Konig Des Todes · Jun 29, 2008, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper of Phear

I kinda feel sorry for the folks @ Anet who actually took the time to sit down and write up hundreds of years worth of lore/history for each of the three continents (and I guess GWeN too). I mean, it seems like nobody really makes any mention of the lore that much.

Quote:

I mean, GW has some substantial lore to explore, but it seems like almost nobody actually cares about the lore, like why the Luxons hate the Kurzicks or why Elona has 3 diff "countries" in it.

May I direct your attention to Druid's Overlook, and more importantly the Lore guild that has been being discussed for a while in both Guru and GWO, and has recently been made. Guru is small on lore though, for better lore fans, go to GWO's Lore Forum. Please do a little research before posting non-sense like this. As a person who loves lore (not just of GW, but nearly any video game I play, movie I watch, and book I read), I am greatly offended to hear that "no one else likes GW lore."

If your serious, shame on you, if your trolling, more shame on you.

ALF71BE · Jun 29, 2008, 06:34 PM // 18:34

In WoW you have to pay for play. When the WoW teenagers monthly subscriptions ends, then they need to wait a couple of weeks before mom and dad give them money. But in these two weeks, they're still addicted to WoW (much like us to GW) so the best they can do is to chill their impulses and start drawing/making shit stories.

In GW we play all what we want, no time restrictions (well only your human needs), and if we ever get tired of it, we stop. We know we can play without subscriptions anytime, so no need of doing that kind of stuff.

And seriously, not even half of any fan art is worth more than a quarter. The good artists are out there, in RL, making real paints/drawings and earning money, real money.

aaje vhanli · Jun 29, 2008, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

Well, I'd love to get into the lore more often but I feel that it has it's short comings and holes.

For instance, one of the lesser known links between Proph. and EotN is the quest, Unspeakable, Unknowable. In this quest, we retrieve the Tome of the Rubicon This tome is an ancient Dwarven artifact that is buried deep within Sorrow's Furnace. The Tome holds the true name of the Great Destroyer. In the quest Unspeakable, Unknowable, the Stone Summit seek to unearth this Tome and learn the true name of the Great Destroyer to use it for their nefarious purposes. High Priest Alkar enlists the aid of players in stopping them and burying the Tome deep within the ruins of the Stone Basilica.

Now, before EotN came out I thought to myself, "Wow, this is awesome how they can take a small facet of the Proph. storyline and create an expansion from it, filled with it's own lore. I wonder who exactly unearthed the tome and uttered the name of the Great Destroyer. Speaking of which, I wonder what it's name actually is."

Do we ever find out who unearthed the tome? No.
Do we ever find out who uttered the name of the Great Destroyer? No.
Do we ever learn what the true name of the Great Destroyer is? No but we find out who his boss is.
Does the EotN dialog even mention the quest which it was based on? No.

Other questions were also left unanswered but it's late and I'm too tired to list any more examples right now. I think most people here can understand where I'm coming from with this. Like I said before, I'd love to delve more and more into the world of Guild Wars but it's shortcomings leave me less than appealed.

EDIT: In b4 "Wait for GW2."

Really great point, Nightow. This reminds me of many other quests that only brush the surface of many lore points that could have been greatly explored. A lot of the GW lore is very thin. There are many points that are briefly addressed, but aNet's writers fail to expose players to the greater depths of such concepts. A part of this is due to the depth of the game itself; while the games are certainly detailed and have great story, the content is nowhere near as extremely detailed as it could be. Most of the NPCs, cultures and story arcs are very two dimensional at best, and this is part of the reason I maintain that the scripts of the games are rough first drafts at best.

If aNet hired a professional writer to really explore the natures of this (GW) land and lore, we could have a truly amazing game on our hands.

Who is to say they're not doing this in GW2? While the sequel may be extensively better and, still, I do indeed find GW to be above average; I'm referring to how the game could be not only above average but brilliant though, honestly, I won't get my hopes up.

zwei2stein · Jun 29, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

WoW lore is much deeper.

Why? Because it simply had history-like quality. You have multiple sources of lore, sometimes contradicting. You get it from lots of points of view. You get to experience most of it in-character. It evolved over long time. Its imcomplete in places and has rought edges, giving it genuine ancient lore thing as it does not spell out everything. It feels quite ... immersive. You just can't help but feel presence of those games that were before wow. And if you realize that most of stuff you see/hear is backed up with several sources ...

GW lore on the other hand feels very, very artificial. You get random shootouts that are designed to allow to plug-in new content, but they are never designed with reall forethought. They are usually twisted a bit to match whatever next chapter is. Its like devs threw bits of stuff around with purporse of intengrating future world parts while having no clue what they will look/feel like.

Plus, most of non-imgane lore published feels more like design document than lore. (timelines, i am looking at you.). Lack of "backgrounding" makes it read like wiki entry outlining gw lore rather than actuall lore.

Best thing GW did lorewise is BMP.

In short: WoW lore has tolkien-like quality. GW lore has more of airport fantasy quality. Good thing is that GW is not game where lore is strong gameplay element.

Dont worry, if GW gets more games in franchise (especially non-rpg ones), book spinoffs, more in-character prose, etc, it will eventually have good lore.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 29, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

WoW lore is much deeper.

Why? Because it simply had history-like quality.

In other words, Warcraft (not just World of Warcraft) has been around longer, giving the lore writers more time to come up with lore and background. GW hasn't been around as long, earliest I've seen a mention of GW was in '02 and that was making the actual game, usually lore comes in after the storyline, gameplay, graphics, etc. (the actual game and not the background of the game).

Give GW time, and if ANet plays their lore cards right, GW will have just as much lore. The OP still seems like a troll to me though, as there are obvious accounts of GW lore and fan-fictions (and the OP has yet to respond to anything of what I've notice).

Free Runner · Jun 29, 2008, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

In other words, Warcraft (not just World of Warcraft) has been around longer, giving the lore writers more time to come up with lore and background. GW hasn't been around as long, earliest I've seen a mention of GW was in '02 and that was making the actual game, usually lore comes in after the storyline, gameplay, graphics, etc. (the actual game and not the background of the game).

Its not that World of Warcraft has been around longer. Its that it is supported by previous games full of lore. Its like how GW2 will have the previous 4 games to support it. When the creators made WoW most of Azeroth had already been fleshed out. Tyria was completely new and ArenaNet have introduced much of the lore in quests people ignore. Its why we get people coming in saying "GW doesnt have any lore".

Nightow · Jun 29, 2008, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Its not that World of Warcraft has been around longer. Its that it is supported by previous games full of lore. Its like how GW2 will have the previous 4 games to support it. When the creators made WoW most of Azeroth had already been fleshed out. Tyria was completely new and ArenaNet have introduced much of the lore in quests people ignore. Its why we get people coming in saying "GW doesnt have any lore".

More or older content is not an excuse for holes in a plot like the ones I explained earlier.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 29, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

More or older content is not an excuse for holes in a plot like the ones I explained earlier.

There will always be holes in plots, people will find them no matter how small. And yes, the whole Tome of Rubricon thing should have been explained in EN, but as me and freerunner have said, in comparison to WoW, GW isn't as old and didn't have as much background to start out with.

GW will lack in "history lore" (background) but shouldn't lack in "modern lore" (storyline). Yes GW does have holes in both, and there is a good "explanation" for the lack of history lore, that being that as time passes more and more stuff is forgotten. In GW2, many NPCs will not know of things that took place during GW1, however we will know, and seeing how there isn't a Pre-GW game/book or whatever, then we technically can't get the info due to that fact (lack of history is true in every case, even the real world).

There are storyline plots with holes, and those could be fixed, and the reason for the Tome issue is probably because ANet rushed EN, although that doesn't mean they can't add in a quest that will explain it (hint hint anet). Let alone add more quests to help explain the lore of GW.

Nightow · Jun 29, 2008, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

...

Azazel? ...It's tome, not tomb. Tomb is where we bury the dead and a tome is a book. Please, know the difference.

Reaper of Phear · Jun 29, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

May I direct your attention to Druid's Overlook, and more importantly the Lore guild that has been being discussed for a while in both Guru and GWO, and has recently been made. Guru is small on lore though, for better lore fans, go to GWO's Lore Forum. Please do a little research before posting non-sense like this. As a person who loves lore (not just of GW, but nearly any video game I play, movie I watch, and book I read), I am greatly offended to hear that "no one else likes GW lore."

If your serious, shame on you, if your trolling, more shame on you.

*puts hands up* OK, OK, I'm sorry, XD. I admit, didnt see the Overlook here.

And if you're offended that "no one else likes GW lore" dont take offense from me, cause I love the lore they set up, I was just sayin that it seems like most other players dont like/care for it.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

WoW lore is much deeper...It evolved over long time...You just can't help but feel presence of those games that were before wow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Its not that World of Warcraft has been around longer. Its that it is supported by previous games full of lore. Its like how GW2 will have the previous 4 games to support it. When the creators made WoW most of Azeroth had already been fleshed out. Tyria was completely new and ArenaNet have introduced much of the lore in quests people ignore. Its why we get people coming in saying "GW doesnt have any lore".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

In other words, Warcraft (not just World of Warcraft) has been around longer, giving the lore writers more time to come up with lore and background.

Does nobody read the opening post? XD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper of Phear

I read the lore from the manuals and thought it was actually really good, especially since they had absolutely no previous franchise titles to draw from, unlike WoW.

Free Runner · Jun 29, 2008, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Actually the Tome was explained in the manuscripts. After repeated attempts by the Stone Summit at unearthing it, Alkar went in and took it back to safety. Upon opening it he found out it not only contained the whole "speak the name and he appears" verse but also accounts of early days and the details of a final conflict where the Great Destroyer would rise and spread his minions across the world of Tyria.

Dru Stratas · Jun 29, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by underverse_ninja

Lore??? story??? WTH is that??? GW story is bland and can be seen right through.

I disagree, when I started playing, which coincided with the release of NightFall, I could never have predicted the identity of the Lich. I find that, even the small snippets on the Tablets of Janthir, along divinity coast, and the excerepts from the various gods on their satues, all add up in the long run, and you really appreciate the work that went into it.

I really enjoy the lore, and as others have said, I don't feel sorry for the writers, because, at least for me, their work hasn't gone amiss. Also, they got paid for it

Konig Des Todes · Jun 29, 2008, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

Azazel? ...It's tome, not tomb. Tomb is where we bury the dead and a tome is a book. Please, know the difference.

Sorry, simple typo, I know the difference. Kinda easy to type tomb instead of tome when you just finished reading on undead. Fixed it as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper of Phear

Does nobody read the opening post? XD

We were explaining why WoW has more lore. I did read it but forgot everything you said after my first post in the thread. Can't say for the others. And I was actually putting that down for others, can't answer for the others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Actually the Tome was explained in the manuscripts. After repeated attempts by the Stone Summit at unearthing it, Alkar went in and took it back to safety. Upon opening it he found out it not only contained the whole "speak the name and he appears" verse but also accounts of early days and the details of a final conflict where the Great Destroyer would rise and spread his minions across the world of Tyria.

... Gonna have to reread the EN manual, been too long since I did. Still, they could have made an in game dialogue, like Alkar saying "I was a fool to read the name" or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dru Stratas

I disagree, when I started playing, which coincided with the release of NightFall, I could never have predicted the identity of the Lich. I find that, even the small snippets on the Tablets of Janthir, along divinity coast, and the excerepts from the various gods on their satues, all add up in the long run, and you really appreciate the work that went into it.

I really enjoy the lore, and as others have said, I don't feel sorry for the writers, because, at least for me, their work hasn't gone amiss. Also, they got paid for it

If you can put 2 and 2 together in mystery stories like I can, then you can figure out the Lich's identity at no later then Riverside Province ending/Sanctum Cay mission, especially if you read on the lore of Orr's end and the source of the Orrian Undead. Them both wanting the Scepter of Orr and both being Orrian was the dead give-away for me.

Free Runner · Jun 30, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Gonna have to reread the EN manual, been too long since I did. Still, they could have made an in game dialogue, like Alkar saying "I was a fool to read the name" or something.

He did not read the name. The passage makes it very clear that the Great Destroyer was going to rise at one point anyway (further evidenced by him being Primordus's "alarm clock"). Coincidently this was going to be six years after the heroes buried it. Sometime in those six years, Alkar went back in,took it away and translated all of it, finding out about the battle that was supposed to transform the dwarven race forever. Which is the reason the Dwarves are already in action the moment we enter the tunnels.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 30, 2008, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

He did not read the name. The passage makes it very clear that the Great Destroyer was going to rise at one point anyway (further evidenced by him being Primordus's "alarm clock"). Coincidently this was going to be six years after the heroes buried it. Sometime in those six years, Alkar went back in,took it away and translated all of it, finding out about the battle that was supposed to transform the dwarven race forever. Which is the reason the Dwarves are already in action the moment we enter the tunnels.

Just by translating the tome, he read the name, although not aloud, it still counts as reading the name, and that is where I was coming from.

Also, now that you mention it, I am reminded about how Odgen spoke of a "prophecy" (not sure if that's the words he used) about the dwarves. Suppose that would count as in game content regarding the tome, as it is the only known source of information on the battle against the destroyers.