Curse

Mark Nevermiss · Jun 08, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

This is how I understand things:

- The Forgotten were brought into this world by the 5 or 6 gods to guide the newer races. It seems also that they were appointed as guardians for the ascension? although I am not clear as to what this precisely means.

- The Margonites were humans who attempted ascension but were beaten back/persecuted by the Forgotten so eventually they sought an alternative way with Abaddon.

- Turai Ossa, aka the Ghostly Hero - clearly a very worthy human being - also attempted ascension with his people but was attacked by the same Forgotten while they were building a temple - obviously to one or all of the 5 gods, and was killed.

- In our successful attempt at ascension we were opposed by those same Forgotten.

It seems to me that the role appointed by the 5 gods to the Forgotten is to be &^*&%$# assholes and as such one would wonder about those who gave them this role.

This probably is the same conclusion Varesh Ossa had reached in her research about Ascension, which is why she decided to side with the Margonites, and to be honest, I don't blame her one little bit.

If the game mechanics had allowed us to choose sides, I'd probably have sided with Abaddon against the other 5.

Sora267 · Jun 08, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Nevermiss

It seems to me that the role appointed by the 5 gods to the Forgotten is to be &^*&%$# assholes

===================
If the game mechanics had allowed us to choose sides, I'd probably have sided with Abaddon against the other 5.

QFT. Hopefully this is something they'll delve into more in GW2.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 08, 2008, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Forgotten were brought to the world as guardians of the world, when humans started to take over the Forgotten's job, they retreated to the Crystal Desert, where they guarded Glint and were meant as the challenge for ascension.

Margonites followed all 6 gods and for an unknown reason attempted ascension, as their boats are also their buildings, it is believed they did this AFTER the fall of Abaddon. Therefore it is believed that the Margonites who tried to ascend were the survivors of the war, and were trying to apologize, however the Gods/Forgotten did not want them to ascend. The forgotten, being the hurdle to pass for ascension, did their job in attacking them, and won.

Turai Ossa and the other Elonians attempted to ascend, found some resistance with the Forgotten, however they were killed off by betrayal and greed FROM WITHIN, not from the Forgotten.

When we went to ascend, it could be that the Forgotten were either, once more being the hurdle, or they were preventing the Ghosts from Ascending as they failed.

All in all, the Forgotten were doing the job of only letting the worthy become ascended. Why? Becoming ascended, in terms of lore, is a HUGE deal, but isn't so much in terms of game mechanics. A common overlook.

Edit: would also like to say that the Margonites and the Forgotten had a WAR, so it is natural for the Forgotten to of attacked the Margonites.

Mark Nevermiss · Jun 09, 2008, 03:56 AM // 03:56

From Thirsty River:

King Khimaar: "The Forgotten defile the resting place of my people. Have we not suffered enough...? I will never fully rest until the memory of my people is no longer taunted by these filthy creatures...My spirits have been weakened by such blasphemy. I must see the Forgotten removed from this place before I slip away...In a matter of moments, I shall leave this world for good, never to see my people's resting place cleansed..."

From Dunes of Despair:

Ghostly Hero: "Once my people came to the desert and built a great temple. But while we labored, we were set upon by the stewards of the desert, the Forgotten. They killed my people, and now another ghost sits upon my throne. I beseech you, help me return to the temple. Help me reclaim my throne and my passage into the Hall of Heroes."

When talkibng about failing from WITHIN due to greed, you are probably referring to the the 3 priests of Elona Reach, but the above quotes still prove that the Forgotten had been acting in a far from faultless manner.

Also, how do you explain that Varesh's research into ascension had led her into siding with the Margonites (indeed becoming one herself) and Abaddon?
I doubt she was a misguided simpleton easily manipulated by an evil advisor. According to Morgahn she had been a brilliant leader who had done so much for Kourna.
I'd hate to believe the story is all black and white.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 09, 2008, 04:14 AM // 04:14

The Thirsty River quote is from a Margonite. Margonites were once humans, and King Khimaar is such a Margonite.

The Dunes of Despair one I cannot disprove for your argument, but I will say that it was still the Forgotten's jobs to make sure only those who should ascend actually do. The Forgotten probably knew that if they were worthy, the Elonians would have won.

And where do you get that Varesh researched Ascension? I don't recall that at all. Also, she was being manipulated by her evil advisor, or should I say, she was corrupted by her evil teacher/general/advisor. Before being corrupted she was a brilliant leader, but being smart does not mean that you cannot become corrupted. In fact, I tend to think being smart leads you into corruption.

Spike Stritter · Jun 09, 2008, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Turai Ossa and the other Elonians attempted to ascend, found some resistance with the Forgotten, however they were killed off by betrayal and greed FROM WITHIN, not from the Forgotten.

From what I REMEMBER this was not from Turai Ossa or anyone in his group or w.e. about a year and a half ago i remember talking to someone in the desert saying that they were killed off by betrayal and greed FROM WITHIN. i dont remember which area it is but im almost certain i remember that. ill do my research now

EDIT: after wiki not helping i decided to put on a running build and go where i thought i remembered where it was. i found what i was looking for.

Yannel Brunn-Arid Sea
"Long ago, my people lived in a city near here. We came to ascend and succumed to our own petty squabbles. We fought day and night, brother against brother, until one of our number created weapons that would lay low the mightiest warriors and shake the very earth. Such was their power that they brought our great city down, and my people have become nothing more than a memory."

thats what you were thinking about

Mark Nevermiss · Jun 09, 2008, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

And where do you get that Varesh researched Ascension? I don't recall that at all. Also, she was being manipulated by her evil advisor, or should I say, she was corrupted by her evil teacher/general/advisor. Before being corrupted she was a brilliant leader, but being smart does not mean that you cannot become corrupted. In fact, I tend to think being smart leads you into corruption.

Somehow when you need to find the source to refer to, you never seem to find it. However, here are some quotes that seem to confirm what I mentioned:

From the Nightfall manuscripts:

"Varesh Ossa is a brilliant commander, a loyal Kournan who instils loyalty and dedication in her troops. Like her ancestor Turai, she has also shown an interest in more spiritual concerns"

On Palawa Joko and Turai Ossa, also in the Nightfall Manuscripts:

" Warmarshal Varesh Ossa represents the latest generation; and she shares her ancestor's fascination with the the role of the gods in the lives of mere men and women"

Oh there it is, I found it

About General Kahyet, from the same source, can also be found on Wiki:

"Kahyet has served as a teacher and guardian to Varesh Ossa for years, assisting her in her studies of the principles of Ascension, Dervish philosophy, the Elonian gods, the history of Turai Ossa, and more esoteric lore. When she learned that Varesh was following the same spiritual path as her ancestor, Kahyet guided her on the path, inspiring her with secrets that only a few truly understand. Kahyet’s time may have ran out, but she knew that an era of greatness for Kourna was at hand."

Konig Des Todes · Jun 09, 2008, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Seeing how it was Kahyet that taught Varesh the principles of Ascension, I don't think it can be said that Varesh knew the complete truth behind Ascension. For all we know, Kahyet could have lied to Varesh, maybe even went so far to say that worshiping Abaddon is the only way to truly ascend (i.e. become a margonite=true Ascension).

Mark Nevermiss · Jun 09, 2008, 01:00 PM // 13:00

And what IS the complete truth about Ascension that Varesh did not know? that the Forgotten killed her ancestor during his quest for Ascension? or that the Margonites met the same fate (King Khimaar's people)?
Abaddon on the other hand takes all in with open arms .. ok maybe not exactly. Some may even view him as the Prometheus in GW.
Abaddon may not care if the world is destroyed in his quest to exact vengeance on the 5, but Balthazar killed a man over a chess game in which he lost :P
There may have been some deception but as I said its not all black and white.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 09, 2008, 03:30 PM // 15:30

What I was meaning, is that not everyone is meant to, let alone should. Ever thought Turai was not worthy? He was seeking eternal life, which means that he was being selfish. The players ascend not out of what they want, but because they are told they must in order to do what they were destined for.

Yes its not all black and white, but that doesn't make the Forgotten evil or Abaddon right

Edit: I would also like to add and idea I read from a thread on GWO. The Forgotten most likely wanted the Titans to not break out through the door of komali, so they did what they could to prevent anyone from ascending. No Ascension=No Ascendants=no Titans in Tyria=What was in the RoT stays in the RoT.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 12, 2008, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Nevermiss

When talking about failing from WITHIN due to greed, you are probably referring to the the 3 priests of Elona Reach, but the above quotes still prove that the Forgotten had been acting in a far from faultless manner.

Also, how do you explain that Varesh's research into ascension had led her into siding with the Margonites (indeed becoming one herself) and Abaddon?
I doubt she was a misguided simpleton easily manipulated by an evil advisor. According to Morgahn she had been a brilliant leader who had done so much for Kourna.
I'd hate to believe the story is all black and white.

When it comes to Turai’s the war with the forgotten wasn’t just about Ascension It was also about defending their homeland. The Gods having abandoned Tryia to its fate abandoned their former disciples in this harsh world. So the Forgotten moved there to get away from the interfering humans who had ruined all their hard work keeping the world in Balance. Then out of no where humans appear on mass obsessed with taking the Crystal Dessert for the gods and Ascending. Perhaps even a Little Jealously in the forgotten that the humans dare to try to become as close to the gods as they once were/are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

What I was meaning, is that not everyone is meant to, let alone should. Ever thought Turai was not worthy? He was seeking eternal life, which means that he was being selfish. The players ascend not out of what they want, but because they are told they must in order to do what they were destined for.

The Crystal Dessert by its very nature was uninhabitable for humans, this killed a lot of the human forces their, infighting over who should ascend killed even more. Turai was the 1st likely candidate but as uve pointed out he wasn’t one of the chosen one. Those Who Seek Power are not pure of Heart no matter how innocent their intentions. The Forgotten attempted to advise the humans in the error of there ways but failed and were often set upon. The Forgotten either in self defence or in order to simply test these humans to see if they were indeed Ascension material Responded and killed some of these human invaders but they killed few and far between and were demonised, the humans were infact their own worst enemies.

Duncan Idaho · Jul 07, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

It is an settled fact that Forgotten dwelling in the Desert are part of the test to get ascended.

It is also a fact that both internal dissensions AND the Forgottens crushed the Elonian try to get ascended.

All in all, as Azazel said, they are only doing what they have been asked to do (if not by the gods, at least by Glint).

As usual, it is a matter the usual self-overevaluation by mankind that pushes even the most venerable ones to undertake quests they cannot perform, due to a lack of power / wisdom / knowledge (a recurrent theme in MMORPG)

Mark Nevermiss · Jul 08, 2008, 12:43 AM // 00:43

I have thought of ascension in prophecies in terms similar to pilgrimage in the world religions of our world. Christians and Jews would travel countless miles to the Holy Land, and Muslims would brave the deserts to reach Mecca..etc.

I haven't come across reference to possible immortality attained via ascension; indeed our own characters seem to be very mortal and will die of natural causes if not during their adventures.

The climax of ascension in Prophecies, at least, after all the build up -the three missions, facing oneself and finally the audience with the seer dragon- is deflated by its futility. It seems our friends, the other Ascalon chosen - Mhenlo, Cynn and all the other Henchmen, have made it through all these tests and yet they hadn't ascended. So while its great that our characters now can go to FoW and UW to clear the mess there; its completely unclear what we gained to aid our cause thereby. At least finding the other seers to gain infusion had its practical and very useful objectives. In Cantha; at least; getting closer to the stars had its very well defined objective: gaining the ability to see spirits. Nightfall is a complete mess.

If people had sought ascension to gain access to the Hall of Heroes upon death then what is so bad about that? who would want to go the UW anyway, where Grenth does not really rule?

Conclusion: If Turai Ossa had sought to be closer to the gods via ascension and was turned down and humiliated, its natural for a descendant of his with great ego and devotion to her great ancestor to seek acceptance elsewhere. At least the dark side delivers more than empty words.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 08, 2008, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Nevermiss

The climax of ascension in Prophecies, at least, after all the build up -the three missions, facing oneself and finally the audience with the seer dragon- is deflated by its futility. It seems our friends, the other Ascalon chosen - Mhenlo, Cynn and all the other Henchmen, have made it through all these tests and yet they hadn't ascended. So while its great that our characters now can go to FoW and UW to clear the mess there; its completely unclear what we gained to aid our cause thereby. At least finding the other seers to gain infusion had its practical and very useful objectives. In Cantha; at least; getting closer to the stars had its very well defined objective: gaining the ability to see spirits. Nightfall is a complete mess.

The other henchmen are ascended, they cannot go into the Underworld or Fissure of Woe for game purposes. That fact has nothing at all to do with lore, just game mechanics (after all UW and FoW were the end-game before Factions, other then HoH, so why make it "easier" to let henchmen into HoH and UW/FoW?)

Quote:

If people had sought ascension to gain access to the Hall of Heroes upon death then what is so bad about that? who would want to go the UW anyway, where Grenth does not really rule?

Ascension is not for gaining access to the Hall of Heroes, Ascension is to gain the "favor of the gods." You do not need to be Ascended to get into the Hall of Heroes (as either dead or living, proof by Rurik and the Battle Isles). And Grenth does truly rule, however he is in a war, same with Balthazar. I think your taking this stuff just a tad bit to seriously, or not looking at it in the same angle I am.

Quote:

Conclusion: If Turai Ossa had sought to be closer to the gods via ascension and was turned down and humiliated, its natural for a descendant of his with great ego and devotion to her great ancestor to seek acceptance elsewhere. At least the dark side delivers more than empty words.

He wasn't turned down, per se, he was unworthy, at least as a mortal. That doesn't mean he was never allowed into the Halls of Heroes or some other high holding (well, if he wasn't stuck in the Crystal Desert, bound by his grief for his and his people's failures, and duty to help the Chosen - lore wise, Devona, Mhenlo, Cynn, Aiden, Eve - become Ascended). And I still hold that Varesh was corrupted herself, not acting fully on her own accord. Basis for that would be General Morgahn, whenever he talks about Varesh, specifically in Ruins of Morah, he says how she was a good leader and whatnot, someone who is "good" won't turn her back on the entire world, especially over one little thing such as an ancestor's failure.

draxynnic · Jul 08, 2008, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike Stritter

From what I REMEMBER this was not from Turai Ossa or anyone in his group or w.e. about a year and a half ago i remember talking to someone in the desert saying that they were killed off by betrayal and greed FROM WITHIN. i dont remember which area it is but im almost certain i remember that. ill do my research now

EDIT: after wiki not helping i decided to put on a running build and go where i thought i remembered where it was. i found what i was looking for.

Yannel Brunn-Arid Sea
"Long ago, my people lived in a city near here. We came to ascend and succumed to our own petty squabbles. We fought day and night, brother against brother, until one of our number created weapons that would lay low the mightiest warriors and shake the very earth. Such was their power that they brought our great city down, and my people have become nothing more than a memory."

thats what you were thinking about

Do we know Yannel was an Elonian? After all, until 60 years after EOTN, Elona is hardly just a memory...

However, that sounds like it may well have been quite accurate if he was describing a civil war among the Margonites, possibly between the followers of Abaddon and the others in the backdrop of the greater war with the rest of the world - the Margonites had been settled in the area, and the end result was the transformation of the Crystal Sea into the Crystal Desert.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 08, 2008, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Do we know Yannel was an Elonian? After all, until 60 years after EOTN, Elona is hardly just a memory...

However, that sounds like it may well have been quite accurate if he was describing a civil war among the Margonites, possibly between the followers of Abaddon and the others in the backdrop of the greater war with the rest of the world - the Margonites had been settled in the area, and the end result was the transformation of the Crystal Sea into the Crystal Desert.

Yannel is defiantly either Elonian or a Margonite pre transformation. Seeing how that is the only area those ghosts came from, but I would have to say that the only Margonite ghost we see would be the King NPC in Thirsty River. Also, by what Yannel means by "our people became a memory" is that the people who went on the pilgrimage is nothing more then a memory, or the people of Elona (or was it Elonia, whichever one is the colony in the Crystal Desert).