Curse

Konig Des Todes · Aug 23, 2008, 11:55 PM // 23:55

When I read Bahltek's dialogue, I think of the scroll that General Kayhet gave Varesh in the cinematic after beating the Diggings mission. That scroll being from the Apocrypha and of course, refering to Nightfall *which is what I would think he meant by "a place of Nightmare".

Now, just because it is confirmed there were scrolls there *which was confirmed via the cinematic* and that they dealth with Abaddon *which, again, was confirmed via cinematic* doesn't mean they are the scrolls that caused the Cataclysm or that the Vizier went to Fahranur.

Again, that scroll could be just what Kayhet gave Varesh in order to help bring about Nightfall.

The only thing that helps your theory with is that Fahranur was a Temple to Abaddon, which I never truly disagreed with *only part I had a problem with was the statue thing, which was just two people talking about two different statues*

Gmr Leon · Aug 24, 2008, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

Sure, but I came across a thread posted by Eratimus. It was very interesting and suggested a possible link between the Catacombs and the Crystal Desert. It was even suggested it was linked to Orr. I thought about it myself and I indeed found it odd that an entire Charr army could sweep through lands on their way to Orr without leaving any traces. It makes a lot of sense they used the Catacombs to march to Orr through an underground network. When the Catacombs indeed lead to the Crystal Desert, or even Orr, then perhaps the skeletons inside the Catacombs aren't just undead.

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/showthread.php?t=385135

That's pretty much been debunked. I've thoroughly explored the Catacombs and there are no holes, no tunnels we cannot go through, that go south. The only thing that he had going for him there was something to explain the statue heads, but even then, it's an old and debunked theory.

As to Orr..It's already been explained, the part about North Kryta Province.

joshuarodger · Aug 24, 2008, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

I think those undead just used the model/skin of the undead in the Catacombs, and seeing how there are no chests in the catacombs, ANet probably just linked them to the Orrian undead for simple use of marking their affiliation, and prevented them from dropping armor. Same can be said for the ones in Fahranur and the quest A Deal's A Deal, as the same skins from the Catacomb undead are there. The thing ANet probably overlooked was the chest drop thing, which has caused you to think this.

azazel, you know a lot more about guild wars lore than i do, but until you can prove that Anet did, in fact, make a mistake with the chest drop, one must accept that the undead in fahranur are Orrian. chests drop items related to the foes around them. if a chest in fahranur dropped decayed orr armor, the foes near that chest are orrian. in this instance, you are the one making the unsupported assumptions. of course, if you can screenie another chest dropping armor unrelated to any of the foes in the area, you may have an argument against the first city's undead being Orrian. but as of now, you are assuming someone at Anet made a mistake when there's no evidence to that effect. reskinning similar armor on similar creatures is one thing, chest drops are something different.

the theory that they are orrian is also supported by the "connection" that gahmir lenon is studying between fahranur and orr. that gives us 2 in-game pieces of evidence as to that particular group of undead's possible origins. whereas you have no evidence to support your assumptions.

i'm sorry if that came off as harsh but you're criticizing Aeve for holes in his/her arguments, when there is a glaring hole in this argument of yours.

Gmr Leon · Aug 24, 2008, 04:03 AM // 04:03

That the chest drops something Orrian related could easily be connected to the reuse of the Undead models in the area that were originally meant only to be Orrian.

Actually, I just did a quick check over the wiki on the Undead there, none of them drop anything Orr related. It seems likely that the fact a Decayed Orr Armor comes out of the chest there was a mishap. If, and I repeat, if the Undead there were Orrian, Anet would have no trouble giving them the same drops as the Orrian undead. That they didn't seems to indicate that they are, in fact, not Orrian undead.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 24, 2008, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuarodger

azazel, you know a lot more about guild wars lore than i do, but until you can prove that Anet did, in fact, make a mistake with the chest drop, one must accept that the undead in fahranur are Orrian. chests drop items related to the foes around them. if a chest in fahranur dropped decayed orr armor, the foes near that chest are orrian. in this instance, you are the one making the unsupported assumptions. of course, if you can screenie another chest dropping armor unrelated to any of the foes in the area, you may have an argument against the first city's undead being Orrian. but as of now, you are assuming someone at Anet made a mistake when there's no evidence to that effect. reskinning similar armor on similar creatures is one thing, chest drops are something different.

I may be assuming that ANet made an oversight. But you are assuming they did not. At the bolded part, one must not accept that as a fact, but one must accept the possibility of that being the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

That the chest drops something Orrian related could easily be connected to the reuse of the Undead models in the area that were originally meant only to be Orrian.

Actually, I just did a quick check over the wiki on the Undead there, none of them drop anything Orr related. It seems likely that the fact a Decayed Orr Armor comes out of the chest there was a mishap. If, and I repeat, if the Undead there were Orrian, Anet would have no trouble giving them the same drops as the Orrian undead. That they didn't seems to indicate that they are, in fact, not Orrian undead.

What they drop are simply "decayed" and "rusted" armor, nothing Orrian. Which only supports mine and Leon's argument.

mazey vorstagg · Aug 24, 2008, 07:19 AM // 07:19

I'm sure someone's done an article on this before: remember that undead can be made many ways, most undead were made when a great deal of people died at the same time, an unexpected death caused them to be restless in their afterlife. Their souls, as far as we know, do not move onto the mists. They either remain as ghosts or shambling corpses to haunt the area where they died.

The catacombs ghosts are simply the ghosts of dead soldiers who died in battle and were thus restless. The krytan undead were all made at the same time when they were torn from life during the cataclysm.

The undead in faranur were made when the whole population rapidly died of the scarab plague. Don't you think waking up one morning to find scarabs burrowing out from under your skin would make you die restless?

The undead in faranur are from there and are Istany.

The Vizier took the scrolls from a warded tomb in the catacombs of the Orr. Orr was an ancient city, the gods had lived there, it's no surprise that there was dark magic being kept safe somewhere hidden below it. Razekiel revealed to the vizier the location of the scrolls and told him they would stop the Charr army from entering Orr. In a desperate bid to save his people and to be recognized as the savior of Orr (I have a feeling what he wanted was power, and by saving his people and becoming their hero he could attain it) he spoke the scrolls and destroyed the city. Perhaps in GW2 they'll be a nice little CG video of it, it would make sense, given that Orr will be one of the high end dungeons in GW2

Konig Des Todes · Aug 24, 2008, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazey vorstagg

I'm sure someone's done an article on this before: -snip undead explanation-

Do you mean the thread "The Hierarchy of the Undead"? If so, thank you for referring to my thread

. If not, I'll need to find this other thread on undead, as there wasn't one before I made mine and I don't think one was made afterwards *at least on guru, maybe on GWO there was before*.

Aeve Haleheart · Aug 24, 2008, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

no tunnels we cannot go through, that go south.

Actually, there is.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...gara/gw294.jpg

And here's the direction it points to. I can't check for myself since I no longer have Photoshop, but I believe it actually points exactly towards Orr.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...gara/gw290.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

If, and I repeat, if the Undead there were Orrian, Anet would have no trouble giving them the same drops as the Orrian undead.

Yea, but don't you think that would be too obvious? I mean, Anet would want to create a whole new chapter that is unique. If there are indeed supposed to be links to other chapters, then they would make them less obvious. Let's say they want to create a link between the Desolation and the Charr; they wouldn't let hordes of Charr walk around at that location or flood the place with burning effigies. At first sight, they want their new campaign to be unique, and with no ties to other chapters. But if there are any, then we have to look closer and really dig in, like we're doing right now. There are convincing arguments which joshua and I seem to consider enough evidence. We have an NPC saying there is indeed a link. This is therefore a fact, it is indisputable. And this claim is further supported by the strange chest drop.

Free Runner · Aug 24, 2008, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

i'm sorry if that came off as harsh but you're criticizing Aeve for holes in his/her arguments, when there is a glaring hole in this argument of yours.

That a Decayed Orr Armor dropped from a locked chest is a glaring hole? if it dropped from a Undead soldier i would agree but a locked chest? when Anet were making Hard mode i dont think their priorites were making hints.

Like GmrLeon said i think it was just confusion on their end putting something into a chest with related enemies nearby. They are not above accidently leaving things in for us to chase around on wild goose chases.

Quote:

Let's say they want to create a link between the Desolation and the Charr; they wouldn't let hordes of Charr walk around at that location or flood the place with burning effigies.

Yeah they wouldnt. It defies logic for obvious reasons.

But they DID hint at the connection - mummified Charr. So i dont really agree on Anet "Not trying to make it Obvious" as a Mummified Charr stands out alot.

Aeve Haleheart · Aug 24, 2008, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

But they DID hint at the connection - mummified Charr. So i dont really agree on Anet "Not trying to make it Obvious" as a Mummified Charr stands out alot.

Is... that seriously true? I was just giving a random example when I used the Charr and the Desolation. Is there actually a connection between those two through a mummified Charr?

Free Runner · Aug 24, 2008, 12:10 PM // 12:10

I would think the fact that charr found themselves all the way in the Desolation in order to be killed and reanimated in the first place would be a strong hint at a possible connection. Unless Joko previously did an invasion of the Charr Homelands which i think would of been a major event to go unnoticed.

It would also help in explaning the Alters found around the Desolation that bear resemblance to the Cauldron of Cataclysm.

Infact speaking of the Cauldron i would like to bring this up. The Magic used to destroy Orr was obviously very destructive. The magic used from the Cauldron to destroy Ascalon was destructive aswell - i obviously cant say if it had the same effects (crystals and fire raining from the sky) but here are two accounts of the Searing and the Cataclysm:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vialee on Orrs Destruction

The last thing I remember, Charr warbands were rampaging through Orr. Then a deafening explosion rocked me from my feet, and a bright light engulfed me. I awoke to find myself here. I don't know what I have done to deserve an eternity in this nightmarish realm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anson on Ascalons Destruction

I just recall blinding flashes of light and fire falling from the sky. I think the world ended, but I'm not sure.

It isnt acurate as both were killed after they witnessed this. Anson is also never given an origin but i presume he was in Ascalon due to his account of "fire raining from the sky" and the fact the group he is in are all people killed in the Searing.

Now heres something about the magic behind the Searing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecology of the Charr

It is said the Cauldron’s magic was older than the Charr, older even than recorded history, and forged by ancient entities fallen into sleep and quiescence.

Now this is a big leap but what if the magic used during the Cataclysm was actually borrowed magic. This would mean the magic was never actually Abaddons to begin with. This would of course create a plothole in that if the magic wasnt Abaddons then why did the people of Orr become tainted. The only thing i can think of is that these Orrians had direct contact with a demonic entity such as Terick.

But then there is also the matter of how Abaddon knew about it. So perhaps Abaddon found the magic and tampered with it to a point of it being considered his own. If the gods didnt know about this then it would mean they wouldnt go looking for it. Abaddon could of left the magic in the place he found it or close to the place he found it (which just so happens to be near an ancient entity sleeping in a dorment state). Infact doesnt it seem funny that Khilbron and the other Orrians became Undead after using the spell? the spell that was found below Orr?

draxynnic · Aug 24, 2008, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

Sure, I know that Khilbron went to get it inside the vault. What you don't seem to want to accept is that I think the scrolls haven't always been there. The vizier didn't go to Fahranur in a hurry to get the scrolls when the Charr attacked, he probably did that a long time before. I don't believe that Abaddon could have hidden such powerful magic inside Arah in the presence of the other gods. And if they did know, do you really believe that after casting out Abaddon they would leave his scrolls inside Arah? They would probably destroy it, along with everything else referring to him. The reason the vizier was able to use some of Abaddon's spells is because they weren't located in Orr first. They were hidden in Fahranur, away from the old gods and all the others who wanted to erase all of Abaddon's belongings.

Now there's an interesting thought...

One of the apparent plotholes in Nightfall is that the Apocrypha is located in Fahrunar... but the Scarab Plague and subsequent abandonment of the city came well after Abaddon's imprisonment. What was it doing in a city that was still occupied?

One possibility, given the tests required to get in, is that that part of the city wasn't occupied even during the Scarab Plague - there is, after all, the REST of the city as well. So the Apocrypha could have been sealed away while the rest of the city was inhabited, just like, if we take the accepted theory regarding the origin of the scroll, the forbidden scrolls were locked away beneath Arah.

Alternatively, however, we still have the question of what caused the Scarab Plague. Palawa has generally been considered the prime suspect, but... what if the reason for the Plague and the fall of the Primeval Kings was because they had continued to invoke Abaddon in secret and the gods decided to send a blunt message?

That said, one thing I've always considered the possibility of is that there WAS no scroll - at least, not until right before the Cataclysm. Instead, it could have been made on the spot by Terick when it was needed and that it had been found in the cataclysms was simply what was told to everyone else.

Gmr Leon · Aug 24, 2008, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

Actually, there is.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...gara/gw294.jpg

And here's the direction it points to. I can't check for myself since I no longer have Photoshop, but I believe it actually points exactly towards Orr.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...gara/gw290.jpg

Yea, but don't you think that would be too obvious? I mean, Anet would want to create a whole new chapter that is unique. If there are indeed supposed to be links to other chapters, then they would make them less obvious. Let's say they want to create a link between the Desolation and the Charr; they wouldn't let hordes of Charr walk around at that location or flood the place with burning effigies. At first sight, they want their new campaign to be unique, and with no ties to other chapters. But if there are any, then we have to look closer and really dig in, like we're doing right now. There are convincing arguments which joshua and I seem to consider enough evidence. We have an NPC saying there is indeed a link. This is therefore a fact, it is indisputable. And this claim is further supported by the strange chest drop.

I'm not going to disregard that evidence, but you seem to like logical conclusions, so tell me this..Why would the Charr, an intelligent race, take a route underground while giant crystals are falling from the sky? Doesn't that strike you as a bit..Absurd? The Catacombs of Ascalon would be collapsing during the Searing, Charr warbands going through them would die from the falling debris.

Er..Not too obvious does not compute. Anet knows there's a wiki and knows that the community is mainly focused on finishing the campaigns as quickly as possible. As such it's only a matter of a day or so and then you get information rolling in that..Hey..There are two Charr in the Realm of Torment that are on your side, two Margonites of the same nature, Forgotten, and..Here's the biggest one of all, the Lich and Shiro making a reappearance.

Aeve, yes, there are mummified Charr in the Desolation. Check the Bone Palace for a friendly NPC one.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 24, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

Yea, but don't you think that would be too obvious? I mean, Anet would want to create a whole new chapter that is unique. If there are indeed supposed to be links to other chapters, then they would make them less obvious.

And quests and two missions that literally states Shiro's and the Lich's connection to Abaddon are not obvious links? I do think they wanted some obvious links around tbh.

Quote:

Let's say they want to create a link between the Desolation and the Charr; they wouldn't let hordes of Charr walk around at that location or flood the place with burning effigies.

They did put a link between the two, but not in the sign of living Charr walking around, just undead ones, oh, and a desolation-style Cauldron that matches the Cauldron of Cataclysm

Quote:

At first sight, they want their new campaign to be unique, and with no ties to other chapters. But if there are any, then we have to look closer and really dig in, like we're doing right now. There are convincing arguments which joshua and I seem to consider enough evidence. We have an NPC saying there is indeed a link. This is therefore a fact, it is indisputable. And this claim is further supported by the strange chest drop.

First sight, I'll take that. But a NPC saying that he is researching for a link and that there is a HM-only chest drop is not indisputable that there is a link. It just proves there might be a link, which is what I say. Find a third, maybe a forth link to connect the two, and I'll begin to believe the link, until then, I'll stay with there might be a link.

Dang it, Free Runner beat me to the Charr in the Desert. The Charr mummies are the Necromancers, there is one in the Bone Palace after the bridge near the exit to the Alkali Plains.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Now this is a big leap but what if the magic used during the Cataclysm was actually borrowed magic. This would mean the magic was never actually Abaddons to begin with. This would of course create a plothole in that if the magic wasnt Abaddons then why did the people of Orr become tainted. The only thing i can think of is that these Orrians had direct contact with a demonic entity such as Terick.

1. The Cataclysm wasn't caused by the Cauldron of Cataclysm, the Searing was, it seems you're getting mixed up. And that kind of explains the lack of Ascalons in the Realm of Torment *yes there are some, but not many*. I think that ANet is trying to link the Cauldron of Cataclysm with the Ancient Dragons for some reason, mainly with that "sleeping entities" part. The Cataclysm was probably caused by Abaddon's magic, but the Searing might not have been. Of course, if the True Gods do not know about Ancient Dragons (unconfirmed if they do or don't) then how can they tell the difference between the Ancient Dragon's magic *or magic from their time* and Abaddon's?

Quote:

But then there is also the matter of how Abaddon knew about it. So perhaps Abaddon found the magic and tampered with it to a point of it being considered his own. If the gods didnt know about this then it would mean they wouldnt go looking for it. Abaddon could of left the magic in the place he found it or close to the place he found it (which just so happens to be near an ancient entity sleeping in a dorment state). Infact doesnt it seem funny that Khilbron and the other Orrians became Undead after using the spell? the spell that was found below Orr?

I have always wondered, did the spell turn the Orrians undead, or was it the Undead Dragon that did. And if it was the spell that did, did the spell turn the Ancient Dragon into an Undead Dragon as well? *what a nightmare to wake up to...*

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

One of the apparent plotholes in Nightfall is that the Apocrypha is located in Fahrunar... but the Scarab Plague and subsequent abandonment of the city came well after Abaddon's imprisonment. What was it doing in a city that was still occupied?

If you go to the room where the Apocrypha is during the mission, you'll notice three doorways under the water at each spot the tendrils are coming out. It is possible that the room, or one of them, was flooded since before the Scarab Plague, and that the Apocrypha escaped inbetween the time of the Scarab Plague and the time of Nightfall.

Free Runner · Aug 24, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

1. The Cataclysm wasn't caused by the Cauldron of Cataclysm, the Searing was, it seems you're getting mixed up. And that kind of explains the lack of Ascalons in the Realm of Torment *yes there are some, but not many*. I think that ANet is trying to link the Cauldron of Cataclysm with the Ancient Dragons for some reason, mainly with that "sleeping entities" part. The Cataclysm was probably caused by Abaddon's magic, but the Searing might not have been. Of course, if the True Gods do not know about Ancient Dragons (unconfirmed if they do or don't) then how can they tell the difference between the Ancient Dragon's magic *or magic from their time* and Abaddon's?

I think your getting mixed up. I never said the Cauldron caused the Cataclysm.

Notice what i said before using the Ecology of the Charr quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myself

Now heres something about the magic behind the Searing

I actually said what if the magic used to cause the Cataclysm (ie. the lost scrolls) was actually magic from the Ancient Dragons, like the magic used for the Searing.

Are we ever given any indication on how you are judged to have been in contact with Abaddons forces or magic? and what exactly was Tericks occupation during his stay at Orr - the spirits seem to respect him in a way making me think he may of worked his way up to a influential position. I also dont think Khilbron would be taking advice from a simple citizen.

natmarie21 · Aug 24, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

well, we know that terick was simillar to the fortune teller, another minion of abbadon. shiro came back to her becaue what she said to him was playing on his mind and lured him in. could this have also been the case with terick and khilbron? not exactly what the fortune teller told shiro of course, but maybe a few simple words in the street, convincing words.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 25, 2008, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

I think your getting mixed up. I never said the Cauldron caused the Cataclysm.

The bolded parts below is what I was primarily looking at when I was responding to your comment:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Infact speaking of the Cauldron i would like to bring this up. The Magic used to destroy Orr was obviously very destructive. The magic used from the Cauldron to destroy Ascalon was destructive aswell - i obviously cant say if it had the same effects (crystals and fire raining from the sky) but here are two accounts of the Searing and the Cataclysm:

Quote:

Now this is a big leap but what if the magic used during the Cataclysm was actually borrowed magic. This would mean the magic was never actually Abaddons to begin with. This would of course create a plothole in that if the magic wasnt Abaddons then why did the people of Orr become tainted. The only thing i can think of is that these Orrians had direct contact with a demonic entity such as Terick.

Aeve Haleheart · Aug 25, 2008, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I'm not going to disregard that evidence, but you seem to like logical conclusions, so tell me this..Why would the Charr, an intelligent race, take a route underground while giant crystals are falling from the sky? Doesn't that strike you as a bit..Absurd? The Catacombs of Ascalon would be collapsing during the Searing, Charr warbands going through them would die from the falling debris.

They wouldn't, but in your scenario they would use the underground tunnel during the searing. Wiki clearly says that the Charr only began to move south towards Orr after the Searing. They would therefore avoid the trouble of having falling debris. And whether or not the Searing destroyed the underground route, we can't possibly know since the entrance to the catacombs has been blocked. The theory still stands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Aeve, yes, there are mummified Charr in the Desolation. Check the Bone Palace for a friendly NPC one.

Is this the one you're referring to?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Awata

If so, then I have to say it's not a Charr at all. I mean sure, it looks like one but in all probability, it's just a re-skin of the Charr, the same way Anet used the White Mantle to create the Shadow Army.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 25, 2008, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

They wouldn't, but in your scenario they would use the underground tunnel during the searing. Wiki clearly says that the Charr only began to move south towards Orr after the Searing. They would therefore avoid the trouble of having falling debris. And whether or not the Searing destroyed the underground route, we can't possibly know since the entrance to the catacombs has been blocked. The theory still stands.

Even if it was after the searing, the tunnels would be blocked off and collapsed inside, and the entrance would be sealed, as it actually is. I hold that the more plausible route they took was along the Shiverpeak's eastern boarder, which would avoid much of Ascalon, but then again, the Manuscripts say they went right through Ascalon, so it is possible that they just "went right down the middle."

-just looked through the manual, only says that the Charr fought through Ascalon, no middle indication-

Quote:

Is this the one you're referring to?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Awata

If so, then I have to say it's not a Charr at all. I mean sure, it looks like one but in all probability, it's just a re-skin of the Charr, the same way Anet used the White Mantle to create the Shadow Army.

That is the friendly NPC that me and GmrLeon were talking about. And although it is possible for it to be a reused model *not reused skin like the Shadow Army/like the Flesh Golem is a reused model of a Charr Warrior* there is too much that makes it still look like a Charr and they would have done a better job, especially with the tail. If you compare anything that uses the same model but a different skin, like the Flesh Golem/Charr Warrior or the Temple Guardian/Roaring Ether/Charr Hunter Beast, you see far less connections. There are too many connections to deny the possibility. And one more thing, which GmrLeon will have to prove right/wrong, I believe it was stated by an ANet member that it was a Undead Charr.

Aside from that, all undead were once other creatures, and only one undead *the Effigy (elementalist)* in Joko's army does not resemble another living creature.

Edit: I have a feeling you just looked up on wiki for Awata. If that is the case, I highly suggest you look at the actual NPC, the biggest indication that it is a charr is the tail, along with the claws.

Free Runner · Aug 25, 2008, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

The bolded parts below is what I was primarily looking at when I was responding to your comment:

I'm rather lost as to what your trying to point to here.

Nowere do i see myself saying the Cauldron caused the Cataclysm. The first bolded line is me saying the magic used to destroy Orr was destructive like the magic to destroy Ascalon was.

And then the second bolded part is me about to give examples of what the Searing and Cataclysm looked like? and then the third bolded line is me saying "what if the magic used in the Cataclysm was borrowed magic?".

Here allow me:

Quote:

Infact speaking of the Cauldron i would like to bring this up. The Magic used to destroy Orr was obviously very destructive. The magic used from the Cauldron to destroy Ascalon was destructive aswell - i obviously cant say if it had the same effects (crystals and fire raining from the sky) but here are two accounts of the Searing and the Cataclysm:

Quote:

Now this is a big leap but what if the magic used during the Cataclysm was actually borrowed magic. This would mean the magic was never actually Abaddons to begin with. This would of course create a plothole in that if the magic wasnt Abaddons then why did the people of Orr become tainted. The only thing i can think of is that these Orrians had direct contact with a demonic entity such as Terick.

Please do not try to make things out of my post that are not already there.

Quote:

If so, then I have to say it's not a Charr at all. I mean sure, it looks like one but in all probability, it's just a re-skin of the Charr, the same way Anet used the White Mantle to create the Shadow Army.

Ahhhh this is where we get caught in our own trap."If my Undead are reskins then why cant yours be".

You see -the Shadow Army are just White Mantle coloured black. However Awata appears to be a skeletal version of a Charr - shes not a Charr coloured blue,black green or yellow with some added spikes for that "Anet look" - shes an actual skeleton of a Charr with a fancy headress on. Now considering we have yet to see anything that looks like a Charr in Elona (or infact the world) and that all Undead were originally something in their past life, we can only assume that she was indeed a Charr in her past life.