Curse

Free Runner · Aug 23, 2008, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

Then we can agree on the vizier using a spell that relates to Abaddon/Abaddon's magic? If that is of course what you're saying.

Then could you mind telling me how the Abaddon spells found their way in to the vaults below Arah?

Why wouldnt there be spells belonging to Abbadon below Arah? it was the City where the gods dwelled! i bet theres a few things from Balthazar,Dwayna and Melandru in there. Theres probably a few things from Grenth and Lyssa there aswell.

And before you begin on the "Its only ever said 3 of the gods dwelled in Arah" - Abbadon didnt even exist when we heard about that. Since Abbadon was pretty much wiped from History its possible he did dwell in Arah at one point or at least had a few things there.

And i dont recall ever saying the spell that caused the Cataclysm wasnt originally an Abbadon spell? infact who even said it wasnt an Abbadon spell? i've only reffered to it as dark magic up to now. I dont think Azazel or Leon have said anything about it ether.

I would think that since Abbadon knew it was there or had an idea of where it was, that would be proof that it was his or associated with him at some point. That doesnt mean because its his it came from Fahranur though.

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When I look at my summarized version of the story in my previous post, I honestly don't see that much holes. Maybe it's a bit far-fetched and doesn't sound that logic in your opinion, but at least it's possible.

Its not because its far fetched - its because it goes against what we already know. The biggest hole in your theory is the location of the scroll. Your saying he may of found it in Fahranur.

The official lore - read official, not something we've pieced together, says that he got it in a Vault in the Catacombs under Arah.

As pointed out by Azazel in the Cryptogram thread, in Shards of Orr on the second level (the whole dungeon is going up from the first floor so technically the first floor is actually the bottom floor) there is a room which only has one way in and is guarded by Undead that contains........scrolls!. Its very possible that the Shards of Orr are part of the Catacombs mentioned and that very room is the vault. If it is it adds again to the already stated story of Orrs downfall - that he got it from there.

Aeve Haleheart · Aug 23, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

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Originally Posted by Free Runner

And before you begin on the "Its only ever said 3 of the gods dwelled in Arah"

... I wasn't planning on moving to that subject. Besides, everybody knows that during the time Balthazar, Melandru and Dwayna resided in Arah, Grenth and Lyssa were in Cantha.

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Originally Posted by Free Runner

The official lore - read official, not something we've pieced together, says that he got it in a Vault in the Catacombs under Arah.

Sure, I know that Khilbron went to get it inside the vault. What you don't seem to want to accept is that I think the scrolls haven't always been there. The vizier didn't go to Fahranur in a hurry to get the scrolls when the Charr attacked, he probably did that a long time before. I don't believe that Abaddon could have hidden such powerful magic inside Arah in the presence of the other gods. And if they did know, do you really believe that after casting out Abaddon they would leave his scrolls inside Arah? They would probably destroy it, along with everything else referring to him. The reason the vizier was able to use some of Abaddon's spells is because they weren't located in Orr first. They were hidden in Fahranur, away from the old gods and all the others who wanted to erase all of Abaddon's belongings.

Free Runner · Aug 23, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

So wait Terick tricked (regardless of him being an Abbadon worshiper or not it says he "tricked" him as you already pointed out) the Vizier into using the scroll that he had previously got from Fahranur, the city which had been sealed due to the Scarab Plague years before, which then blew up Orr?

Why did he go and get the said scroll from Fahranur and then store it in a vault? what was his intention? and how did Terick trick him into using a scroll he had previously collected? Khilbron seemed like a clever man to me - if he had gone to collect something i'm sure he would of studied it first rather than sealing it in a vault and then using it when pushed by a citizen.

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And if they did know, do you really believe that after casting out Abaddon they would leave his scrolls inside Arah?

Yes?

Abbadons Mouth? the Statues of Abbadon in Elona? the gods didnt seem to cover everything up. They made sure his name and the events that conspired between them and his forces at the Mouth of Torment were wiped off history - but they forgot a couple of vital things.They left in the exact same year that Abbadon was defeated - who knows how much time there was between his defeat and their Exodus. Checking the Catacombs may not of been important to them as long as Abbadon is sealed away and his actions are forgotton. Lets remember theres something else sleeping down there which the gods seem to have overlooked.

"I dont believe Abbadon could of hidden such powerful magic inside Arah?" This is Abbadon we're talking about. He managed to pull off an exact chain of events from the Searing to the Cataclysm from inside his prison with pure manipulation. He is the God of Secrets! i dont think hiding scrolls from the other gods would of been any effort to him. Infact i believe putting such powerful magic onto a scroll was pretty good.

Gmr Leon · Aug 23, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Aeve, have you even been through the Desolation? It's like a Margonite/Forgotten/Primeval Dynasty/Turai Pilgrimage treasure trove.

Yes. Margonite.

There were quite literally TONS of things left over in the Desolation from the time of the Margonites. The Gods did try to conceal everything about Abaddon from humanity, but here's the thing and there's more proof than just this event..They're not perfect beings that can wipe away all traces of something's existence in one year.

There are Abaddon statue heads in the north and south of the Desolation, and a head next to Fahranur. All this really says to me is that one, the Desolation was likely an area of Margonite concentration before the Fall, and two, that Abaddon must not have been that respected in Fahranur.

Think about it for a moment, the head of his statue is outside of Fahranur and it's damaged. The innermost chamber of Fahranur is filled with water and tentacles, ignoring the tentacles or tendrils or whatever you want to call them, that would be a place for a statue of Abaddon. But it's not there.

You could say that his statue was destroyed and thrown out after his fall, but there's nothing to show that his statue ever existed inside there.
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Fahranur, to me, seems like the closest thing to Arah we have in game. Arah was the city of the Gods, Fahranur is the first city of humanity in Elona. Both come from ancient times, and both hold many ancient treasures. However, what you're asking us to do is to discount the Manuscripts account.

You seem to think it's easy and simplistic for a random Tyrian, particularly Orrian, to come down from the north and just all of a sudden ask to enter their First City. One that, from all that we can tell in-game, has been locked down for centuries even before the Vizier may have visited. A random foreigner, from somewhere they had never bothered traveling to, just waltzes in and takes an artifact from the forbidden ruins of their First City without killing anyone? Really? The only way the Kournans managed to sneak in was through the use of the Corsairs to divert Sunspear forces from the City.

The thing is, you're oversimplifying it. If an Orrian of Vizier Khilbron's status went to Elona at any time, I imagine we would have heard something about it in a quest or at least in the Manuscripts, especially if one requested to enter the First City. But we don't.

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Originally Posted by Free Runner

Its very possible that the Shards of Orr are part of the Catacombs mentioned and that very room is the vault.

Not really..The catacombs were directly beneath Arah and Arah is at the bottom of the Sea of Sorrows. We would have to take an Asura gate into the Shards of Orr if they were a part of the catacombs beneath Arah. The fact (how do you know that it goes up, by the way?) that it goes upward seems to make it less likely.

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Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

Note: it is said that Orrian Royal Guards found "forbidden" spells in the chambers of the vizier. Why are they forbidden? If you accept my theory, then you have an answer. They are forbidden because they are spells given by Abaddon, the outcast god. The royal guards somehow knew these spells were related to Abaddon, and because they were taught to no longer worship Abaddon and consider him an evil and enemy god, they labeled the spells as 'forbidden'.

Source? Otherwise your entire paragraph above is just unsupported misinformation.

Free Runner · Aug 23, 2008, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Not really..The catacombs were directly beneath Arah and Arah is at the bottom of the Sea of Sorrows. We would have to take an Asura gate into the Shards of Orr if they were a part of the catacombs beneath Arah. The fact (how do you know that it goes up, by the way?) that it goes upward seems to make it less likely.

Well the Shards of Orr do run alittle out to sea but as you said they would have to be underneath Arah and Orrs position on the map is quite far away from the coast and i dont think they reach that far out. I just find it interesting how it seems just like a vault.

Oh and in dungeons the portals to the next level are marked by a staircase which indicates if the next level is going up or down (for example Darkrime Delves have staircases going down which indicates that your heading further down towards the nest). Shards of Orr uses Upward Staircases.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Source? Otherwise your entire paragraph above is just unsupported misinformation

I believe Aeve is talking about this.

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Originally Posted by Wandering Soul

No wait! We discovered that the Vizier had been corrupted by the God of Secrets! We found the forbidden books in his quarters! It's coming back to me now

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Faded_Memory

Gmr Leon · Aug 23, 2008, 05:32 PM // 17:32

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Originally Posted by Free Runner

I believe Aeve is talking about this.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Faded_Memory

Ah. I'm not one to do many quests that are outside of outposts, thanks for pointing that out.

Edit: Just a funny note, the default dialogue of the Wandering Spirit before you talk to him about the quest is a quote from the song Once in a Lifetime by Talking Heads.

Aeve Haleheart · Aug 23, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

So wait Terick tricked (regardless of him being an Abbadon worshiper or not it says he "tricked" him as you already pointed out) the Vizier into using the scroll that he had previously got from Fahranur, the city which had been sealed due to the Scarab Plague years before, which then blew up Orr?

Why did he go and get the said scroll from Fahranur and then store it in a vault? what was his intention? and how did Terick trick him into using a scroll he had previously collected? Khilbron seemed like a clever man to me - if he had gone to collect something i'm sure he would of studied it first rather than sealing it in a vault and then using it when pushed by a citizen.

The way I see it, is that the vizier only knew what Abaddon wanted him to do. And that is to blow up Arah.
Source: http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Blueprint_of_the_Fall

The vizier had to obtain magic powerful enough to do so... bla bla... As far as Terick's misguidance goes, I believe he merely tricked the vizier into believing the magic he was going to use would only destroy Arah. After all, the vizier was an intelligent person, like you said, and he was about to use unknown magic. Little did he know the spell would not only destroy Arah, but all of Orr. This is more or less said here:
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Escape_from_the_Torment

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Originally Posted by Terick

Just as simply as I used that foolish Vizier to wipe Orr from this world

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Originally Posted by Free Runner

but they forgot a couple of vital things.

Exactly, they forgot a couple of things, which means all that is left of Abaddon (statues, scriptures, locations, ...) was left there accidental. I can accept the fact that the gods would forget about certain statues, but inside Arah itself...? When they started their quest to 'erase everything that relates to Abaddon', do you not think they would begin in their own home? The place where Abaddon himself might have resided, like you said earlier. They must have found the scrolls, I can't believe they would overlook that.

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Originally Posted by Free Runner

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Not really..

Its very possible that the Shards of Orr are part of the Catacombs mentioned and that very room is the vault.

Phew, when I first read that, I was thrilled with excitement.

I haven't done the Shards of Orr dungeon yet and how awesome would it be to set foot in a room that may well have been "the" vault. But unfortunately, it's impossible.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

You could say that his statue was destroyed and thrown out after his fall, but there's nothing to show that his statue ever existed inside there.

Yes, I have to admit, that was a bit of a tricky thing. Why would the remnants of Abaddon's statue be outside his temple instead of inside? Well, like you said, it might have been thrown out by Abaddon's oldd followers after he was cast out by the other gods and regarded as the forbidden god. That might even make sense, seeing as the current location of the statue's head would be a very odd place to construct such a statue.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

You seem to think it's easy and simplistic for a random Tyrian, particularly Orrian, to come down from the north and just all of a sudden ask to enter their First City.

I would assume Khilbron travelled to Fahranur after it had been abandoned. Whether it be because it was a temple dedicated to Abaddon and therefore forbidden to enter after he was cast out or because the Scarab Plague originated there... The reason doesn't matter. Kormir clearly says that "tales of the forbidden ruins" are part of her history. It would have been very easy for the vizier to enter an abandoned city, don't you think?

Note: I just realized that the use of the word "forbidden" might just link the scrolls Khilbron used with Fahranur. The scrolls the vizier used were forbidden because they related to the forbidden god, and the ruins were forbidden, also, because it related to the forbidden god. Makes sense, no?

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Originally Posted by Free Runner

I believe Aeve is talking about this.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Faded_Memory

Yep, thanks for clearing that up.

Gmr Leon · Aug 23, 2008, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

I would assume Khilbron traveled to Fahranur after it had been abandoned. Whether it be because it was a temple dedicated to Abaddon and therefore forbidden to enter after he was cast out or because the Scarab Plague originated there... The reason doesn't matter. Kormir clearly says that "tales of the forbidden ruins" are part of her history. It would have been very easy for the vizier to enter an abandoned city, don't you think?

Note: I just realized that the use of the word "forbidden" might just link the scrolls Khilbron used with Fahranur. The scrolls the vizier used were forbidden because they related to the forbidden god, and the ruins were forbidden, also, because it related to the forbidden god. Makes sense, no?

Actually, what Khilbron used is referred to in two different ways. Lost Scrolls and Forbidden Books, but the use of the word Forbidden isn't enough of a link. People were forbidden from going to the ruins because of two things, the tales that surrounded it, and the Scarab Plague. Those two things make it forbidden. Think about the Maguuma Jungle, it could easily be called a Forbidden Jungle because Krytan children are forbade by their parents from entering there due to the tales of man-eating plants and insects.

Does that make it related to Abaddon? No, it does not. See how tenuous the connection is?

Also...Fahranur, the First City was only abandoned during the years of the Scarab Plague, after that it was sealed off and guarded. To prevent people from entering and inciting another Scarab Plague.

In fact, it was probably during these years that the tales started to be spun about the ancient city. After a few centuries it would have become a mainly unknown location, like the Maguuma Jungle, and it wouldn't take much more than that unknown factor to spin wild and frightening tales about the place.

Free Runner · Aug 23, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

The way I see it, is that the vizier only knew what Abaddon wanted him to do. And that is to blow up Arah.
Source: http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Blueprint_of_the_Fall

The vizier had to obtain magic powerful enough to do so... bla bla... As far as Terick's misguidance goes, I believe he merely tricked the vizier into believing the magic he was going to use would only destroy Arah. After all, the vizier was an intelligent person, like you said, and he was about to use unknown magic. Little did he know the spell would not only destroy Arah, but all of Orr. This is more or less said here:
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Escape_from_the_Torment

Ah but Arah was i believe the only city on Orr (someone correct me if i'm wrong). Judging from the size of Orr it could of only held one city there when in comparison to Lions Arch - and i'm going to guess that it was alot bigger than Lions Arch.

I'm going to use this picture from GmrLeons thread on GWO relating to Orr. Note its not an official picture of Orr since we dont have one yet but it is the closest picture to Orrs possible look.

With that i would estimate Arah to be here, based on how it looks post-Cataclysm:

Heres a present day picture:

So really i doubt anyone could think that something able to wipe out a city like Arah wouldnt take Orr with it.

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Phew, when I first read that, I was thrilled with excitement.

I haven't done the Shards of Orr dungeon yet and how awesome would it be to set foot in a room that may well have been "the" vault. But unfortunately, it's impossible.

You should take a look anyway. It is a very fascinating room.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 23, 2008, 07:10 PM // 19:10

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Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

I said I would like to ignore that because what you said before was simply not worth the effort responding to. If you would simply take a little walk around Fahranur, you will find the remnants of a statue of Abaddon. And yes, I can bring it up as a fact because no one would be stupid enough to question whether or not the statue represents Abaddon.

I was talking about a different statue, as I stated when responding to GmrLeon. I'm talking about this not this, which is what you are talking about and is farther then the first statue(s).

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Exactly. They were sént to the Realm of Torment. If you just look at what Vialee says, you will notice that he witnessed the explosion brought about by the vizier, and then found himself in the Realm of Torment immediately afterwards. It was the cataclysm, the spell itself used by the vizier that sucked the Orrian people into the Realm of Torment.

As Free Runner and I already said, they were not sucked into the Realm of Torment, their spirits were sent there. You are saying their bodies where sent there, not just their spirits

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Earlier, it was said by one of you that Terick didn't tell the vizier about Abaddon. You even said the vizier was probably not a follower of Abaddon, contrary to my beliefs. But then none of what you say makes any sense. First of all, where exactly is it said that the vizier was corrupted by Razakel? Looks to me like the vizier was tricked and manipulated. It even shows in Terick's character. This is what is said during the quest:

Reward Dialogue

"I can't believe these things you've told me. I've seen men twisted by these lands, and it is true Terick had been acting different as of late. But I can't believe he could be responsible for such an unspeakable crime. He was a good man. There must be something more to this."

Terick was thought to be a good and kind man, yet he turned out to be different. He tricked everyone into believing he was someone else. That leads me to conclude he would use the same method to trick the vizier.
(on a sidenote: the name Terick actually has the word 'trick' in it.)

Secondly, how could the vizier not know about Abaddon? He already knows there is a place called Abaddon's Mouth, and seeing how he is a mage and a practicer in the matters of the arcane, it seems logic that he did his homework and found out who this Abaddon creature is.

I've always said that Khilbron knew about Abaddon before the Cataclysm because of the quest Faded Memory. I say corrupted because that was the original thought, although I say Khilbron was evil the entire time, didn't know of Abaddon until Terick showed up, but was still evil.

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However, I still believe the undead in Fahranur are Orrian.

I think those undead just used the model/skin of the undead in the Catacombs, and seeing how there are no chests in the catacombs, ANet probably just linked them to the Orrian undead for simple use of marking their affiliation, and prevented them from dropping armor. Same can be said for the ones in Fahranur and the quest A Deal's A Deal, as the same skins from the Catacomb undead are there. The thing ANet probably overlooked was the chest drop thing, which has caused you to think this.

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Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

When I look at my summarized version of the story in my previous post, I honestly don't see that much holes. Maybe it's a bit far-fetched and doesn't sound that logic in your opinion, but at least it's possible.

YOU don't see holes in your theory because YOU made the theory and apparently don't know/remember what we have proof of, and you are refusing to agree to those facts while insisting that your theory instead.

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Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

... I wasn't planning on moving to that subject. Besides, everybody knows that during the time Balthazar, Melandru and Dwayna resided in Arah, Grenth and Lyssa were in Cantha.

Sorry for moving to that subject, but why can I not recall anything mentioning Grenth and Lyssa in Cantha... Please help me out on this, as it seems it is something I never noticed.

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Sure, I know that Khilbron went to get it inside the vault. What you don't seem to want to accept is that I think the scrolls haven't always been there. The vizier didn't go to Fahranur in a hurry to get the scrolls when the Charr attacked, he probably did that a long time before. I don't believe that Abaddon could have hidden such powerful magic inside Arah in the presence of the other gods. And if they did know, do you really believe that after casting out Abaddon they would leave his scrolls inside Arah? They would probably destroy it, along with everything else referring to him. The reason the vizier was able to use some of Abaddon's spells is because they weren't located in Orr first. They were hidden in Fahranur, away from the old gods and all the others who wanted to erase all of Abaddon's belongings.

What you don't seem to want to accept is what Free Runner pointed out, why be tricked into using scrolls when he has to go get them. Khilbron is no dummy, except when it comes to his power compared to ours

. He would have done SOMETHING other than just storing in a vault. As for your "hidden away" part, the best location to hide something from others is to put it right under their noses. In this case, literally. I mean, if the other gods are as big as Abaddon, I don't think they could have fit in catacombs

(That's both a joke and serious).

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

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Originally Posted by Free Runner

As pointed out by Azazel in the Cryptogram thread, in Shards of Orr on the second level (the whole dungeon is going up from the first floor so technically the first floor is actually the bottom floor) there is a room which only has one way in and is guarded by Undead that contains........scrolls!. Its very possible that the Shards of Orr are part of the Catacombs mentioned and that very room is the vault. If it is it adds again to the already stated story of Orrs downfall - that he got it from there.

Not really..The catacombs were directly beneath Arah and Arah is at the bottom of the Sea of Sorrows. We would have to take an Asura gate into the Shards of Orr if they were a part of the catacombs beneath Arah. The fact (how do you know that it goes up, by the way?) that it goes upward seems to make it less likely.

What I meant in that thread that it was more of a second vault/Library, not so much the one Khilbron got his Ancient Scroll from.

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Originally Posted by Free Runner

Ah but Arah was i believe the only city on Orr (someone correct me if i'm wrong). Judging from the size of Orr it could of only held one city there when in comparison to Lions Arch - and i'm going to guess that it was alot bigger than Lions Arch.

I think you are right, it was Arah and then an outskirts town/city where the people lived *Arah itself was abandoned other then maintenance I believe, Orrians waiting for the gods to return didn't want their home messed up*

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You should take a look anyway. It is a very fascinating room.

As is the room with the crystals and the sword-warrior guy, which was attempted to be connected as Menzies *could still very well be true, but highly unlikely, as I believe it was Free Runner that said it is probably just an ancient warrior like the guy with the spear all over Istani*

Aeve Haleheart · Aug 23, 2008, 08:11 PM // 20:11

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Actually, what Khilbron used is referred to in two different ways. Lost Scrolls and Forbidden Books, but the use of the word Forbidden isn't enough of a link. People were forbidden from going to the ruins because of two things, the tales that surrounded it, and the Scarab Plague. Those two things make it forbidden. Think about the Maguuma Jungle, it could easily be called a Forbidden Jungle because Krytan children are forbade by their parents from entering there due to the tales of man-eating plants and insects.

Does that make it related to Abaddon? No, it does not. See how tenuous the connection is?

You're absolutely right. I was actually half-joking about using the word "forbidden" as a link between the scrolls and Fahnranur.

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Originally Posted by Free Runner

Ah but Arah was i believe the only city on Orr (someone correct me if i'm wrong). Judging from the size of Orr it could of only held one city there when in comparison to Lions Arch - and i'm going to guess that it was alot bigger than Lions Arch. So really i doubt anyone could think that something able to wipe out a city like Arah wouldnt take Orr with it.

Okay, that's pretty convincing. However, there is a thing that bothers me. It is said that during the Second Great Corsair War, the Orr territory extended to the Tarnished Coast, and even to the North Kryta Province. The Orr kingdom is in that case a lot bigger then you said.

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Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

As for your "hidden away" part, the best location to hide something from others is to put it right under their noses. In this case, literally. I mean, if the other gods are as big as Abaddon, I don't think they could have fit in catacombs (That's both a joke and serious).

Yea, well... perhaps you're right. People do often say it is indeed best to hide something in the most obvious spot. I still find it unlikely but you did more or less convince me.

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Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

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Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

However, I still believe the undead in Fahranur are Orrian.

I think those undead just used the model/skin of the undead in the Catacombs

Sure, but I came across a thread posted by Eratimus. It was very interesting and suggested a possible link between the Catacombs and the Crystal Desert. It was even suggested it was linked to Orr. I thought about it myself and I indeed found it odd that an entire Charr army could sweep through lands on their way to Orr without leaving any traces. It makes a lot of sense they used the Catacombs to march to Orr through an underground network. When the Catacombs indeed lead to the Crystal Desert, or even Orr, then perhaps the skeletons inside the Catacombs aren't just undead.

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/showthread.php?t=385135

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Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Sorry for moving to that subject, but why can I not recall anything mentioning Grenth and Lyssa in Cantha... Please help me out on this, as it seems it is something I never noticed.

Well, that's a pretty old theory of mine. I came up with it when I purchased Factions and took a closer look at the professions. Here's basically what is attributed to both Grenth and Lyssa.

- Lyssa: the goddess of illusions and trickery. Mesmers following her teachings prefer to deceive their opponents and mislead them.
- Grenth: the god of death and the afterlife. He rules over the undead, and evertyhing in the undead world: skeletons, spirits, ...

And furthermore, the 5 old gods can in a way be divided into two groups. Balthazar, Dwayna and Melandru are the 'good' gods, while Lyssa and Grenth are perceived as being 'bad' gods.

The 3 good gods were in Arah, while Lyssa and Grenth were in Cantha to spread their teachings. This is why Cantha offers two professions that are easily linked to both gods.

The assassin: through the shadow stepping ability, the assassin misleads and fools the opponent, just like the mesmer does.

The ritualist: the ritualist channels the spirits of the undead, and even animates corpes like the necromancer.

And there's also the visual link: mesmer is pink, assassin is purple. Necromancer is green, ritualist is teal.

It's not a "serious" theory or anything, but there still is a strong connection and resemblence.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 23, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

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Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

Okay, that's pretty convincing. However, there is a thing that bothers me. It is said that during the Second Great Corsair War, the Orr territory extended to the Tarnished Coast, and even to the North Kryta Province. The Orr kingdom is in that case a lot bigger then you said.

I have noted that it says that on wiki, but I cannot find a source for that anywhere other then wiki. With that being the case, that is unconfirmed, unreliable information that was probably put there because someone thought "Shards of Orr is in the Tarnished Coast, so Orr must have owned that little area a while back!"

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Sure, but I came across a thread posted by Eratimus. It was very interesting and suggested a possible link between the Catacombs and the Crystal Desert. It was even suggested it was linked to Orr. I thought about it myself and I indeed found it odd that an entire Charr army could sweep through lands on their way to Orr without leaving any traces. It makes a lot of sense they used the Catacombs to march to Orr through an underground network. When the Catacombs indeed lead to the Crystal Desert, or even Orr, then perhaps the skeletons inside the Catacombs aren't just undead.

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/showthread.php?t=385135

Interesting finds in that thread, however I disagree with that and agree more with the idea that the Charr just followed the Shiverpeaks on the eastern boarder after destroying the wall *which would leave most of Ascalon alone, and only unexplorable areas as their path*. I think the "connections" in that thread are mearly reused models *the statue head part* and the "tunnel opennings" have always seemed to be Forgotten homes to me - as the Forgotten Siliss Yassith is isolated on that "mountain" or whatever you wish to call it and is right next to one of those "tunnel entrances". Not to mention there are FAR to many of those supposed entrances for them to all be entrances *and a ton right next to each other.

Quote:

And furthermore, the 5 old gods can in a way be divided into two groups. Balthazar, Dwayna and Melandru are the 'good' gods, while Lyssa and Grenth are perceived as being 'bad' gods.

This is the only problem I have with this little theory. I wouldn't call Lyssa and Grenth 'bad' Gods, but more of a 'anti-hero' god thing *they are good guys but they act/look/are percieved to be evil* and I would add in the third group of 'evil' gods *Abaddon, Dhuum, Menzies*. Other than that, makes sense, although now with Nightfall out, what do you say for that

. Not to mention that the new professions worship Lyssa and Grenth doesn't prove they were in Cantha. But that's a different topic.

Aeve Haleheart · Aug 23, 2008, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

I have noted that it says that on wiki, but I cannot find a source for that anywhere other then wiki. With that being the case, that is unconfirmed, unreliable information that was probably put there because someone thought "Shards of Orr is in the Tarnished Coast, so Orr must have owned that little area a while back!"

To be entirely honest, I haven't found any other source either. Normally I pretty much always believe what wiki says, but in this case I don't, as it sounds rather weird that the Orr kingdom would actually reach to North Kryta Province.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

I think the "connections" in that thread are mearly reused models *the statue head part* and the "tunnel opennings" have always seemed to be Forgotten homes to me - as the Forgotten Siliss Yassith is isolated on that "mountain" or whatever you wish to call it and is right next to one of those "tunnel entrances". Not to mention there are FAR to many of those supposed entrances for them to all be entrances *and a ton right next to each other.

Yea sure, I too have always thought those 'tunnels' to be the homes of the forgotten. I don't believe they are the openings that lead to the Catacombs. Where this openings are, I don't know. But what you refer to are definitely lairs in which the forgotten live.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin"

This is the only problem I have with this little theory. I wouldn't call Lyssa and Grenth 'bad' Gods, but more of a 'anti-hero' god thing *they are good guys but they act/look/are percieved to be evil* and I would add in the third group of 'evil' gods *Abaddon, Dhuum, Menzies*. Other than that, makes sense, although now with Nightfall out, what do you say for that . Not to mention that the new professions worship Lyssa and Grenth doesn't prove they were in Cantha. But that's a different topic.

No, they're not really evil. They're good gods with a bit of a dark side. And no, it's not proof that Lyssa and Grenth were in Cantha, but it is an indication. It's the only satisfying theory I have as to why both Lyssa and Grenth aren't mentioned when it's said Arah is inhabited by the gods.

Free Runner · Aug 23, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

It is said that during the Second Great Corsair War, the Orr territory extended to the Tarnished Coast, and even to the North Kryta Province. The Orr kingdom is in that case a lot bigger then you said.

This was brought up in the other thread. The Tarnished Coast is actually uninhabited prior to the Asura. Well okay the Mursaat may of been there. But other than that all it had was its many Simian, Dinosaurs and Frogmen. The Orrian expansion is actually reffering to the Shards of Orr - inside it looks alot like present day Cantha on the first level.

Now the Wiki actually mentions that it expanded its Kingdom to North Kryta Province - which is actually a long way from Orr. Now i dont take anything from wiki as serious lore unless its backed by something. And i've looked around and cant find anything about Orr expanding to the North Kryta Province - i also find it hard to believe Kryta would allow that, especially during the Guild Wars.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 23, 2008, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Now the Wiki actually mentions that it expanded its Kingdom to North Kryta Province - which is actually a long way from Orr. Now i dont take anything from wiki as serious lore unless its backed by something. And i've looked around and cant find anything about Orr expanding to the North Kryta Province - i also find it hard to believe Kryta would allow that, especially during the Guild Wars.

The only kingdom to hold power over Kryta other then Kryta was Ascalon, as Kryta use to be a colony of Ascalon. There is no mention of Orr's founding or it having colonies. So it is possible that the "Orr controled North Kryta Province" was either a typo that was suppose to be "Ascalon controlled Kryta" *rather big typo* or someone noticed that the Scepter of Orr was buried in Majesty's Rest and thought Orr once had control over Kryta.

Edit: Although I cannot say why that note was added, I can say I found out who put that in. It was "Gordon Ecker". So if you want to ask him for his source *if he even remembers as it was changed on 14 September 2007*, there's all you need to know.

/begin joke
I call for a witch hunt! All those who post false information on wiki must be burned at the stake! Fueled by the Great Destroyer's Breath!
/end joke

Another Edit: @ below: That makes more sense then my guess.

Free Runner · Aug 23, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

I'm taking a huge guess here but:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Orrian_Excavation

I believe he may of misread that quest. I've removed it now anyway until someone can give the source.

natmarie21 · Aug 23, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

when you die, a number of factors decide if you enter the hall of heores, like what you did in your life, and your DEATH. keeping in mind that the 5 true gods weren't in favor of evil magic, and the fact that someones death can decide if you spend eternity in the realm of torment, dying as a result of evil, forbidden magic probably wouldn't go down too well with grenth.

and the whole 'people abandoned fahranur because of abbadons taint is irrelevent becaue it says the in manuscripts, and i quote:
"In this troubled time, heroes tended to the sick, evacuated towns and villagers, and searched for the source of corruption"

which basically means that istan was totally abbandoned because of the severity of the scarab plague.

your theory does have alot of holes, and you really need to refine it because you're replacing fact with stuff that makes your theory work.

Aeve Haleheart · Aug 23, 2008, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

I'm taking a huge guess here but:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Orrian_Excavation

I believe he may of misread that quest. I've removed it now anyway until someone can give the source.

I don't think this quest says anything about the Orrian kingdom ever extending to the North Kryta Province. It does however raise the question as to why the orrian wizards would bury the tablet shards at that exact location. Why come all the way to Kryta to bury them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

This was brought up in the other thread. The Tarnished Coast is actually uninhabited prior to the Asura. Well okay the Mursaat may of been there. But other than that all it had was its many Simian, Dinosaurs and Frogmen. The Orrian expansion is actually reffering to the Shards of Orr - inside it looks alot like present day Cantha on the first level.

Now the Wiki actually mentions that it expanded its Kingdom to North Kryta Province - which is actually a long way from Orr. Now i dont take anything from wiki as serious lore unless its backed by something. And i've looked around and cant find anything about Orr expanding to the North Kryta Province - i also find it hard to believe Kryta would allow that, especially during the Guild Wars.

Hmm, yea, I would think it's safe to say we're dealing with false information here. And about the first dungeon level looking like Cantha... Any thoughts on that? Or is that getting a bit off-topic?

Konig Des Todes · Aug 23, 2008, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

I don't think this quest says anything about the Orrian kingdom ever extending to the North Kryta Province. It does however raise the question as to why the orrian wizards would bury the tablet shards at that exact location. Why come all the way to Kryta to bury them?

That was the point Free Runner was making. The person mistook "Orrian wizards buried the tablets" for "Orr controlled." And a possible reason for burying them up there could be to keep them away from other Orrian Wizards, or they just had a vacation on Giant's Basin and had a good swim and buried them in the sand over there. Who doesn't do that?

Quote:

Hmm, yea, I would think it's safe to say we're dealing with false information here. And about the first dungeon level looking like Cantha... Any thoughts on that? Or is that getting a bit off-topic?

O.o Uhh, quote the right person XD. But what I think Free Runner (not me) meant was all the clustered buildings making it look like the clustered city called Kaineng City. And that is getting off topic.

Aeve Haleheart · Aug 23, 2008, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

or they just had a vacation on Giant's Basin and had a good swim and buried them in the sand over there. Who doesn't do that?

*laugh*

I just thought of something else. Why don't we mix some mystery into this discussion by introducing the most mysterious of them all: Bahltek.

As you know, I'm interested in Fahranur, and it just so happens to be that Bahltek says something rather interesting in that city:

Bahltek:there are items that hold a certain archemetrical infusion... sorry, you would say "power." The certain scroll I am searching for deals with a place of Nightmare, and the terrible beings that dwell there.

Bahltek is searching for a scroll in Fahranur with a certain power. And the scroll relates to "a place of nightmare and the terrible beings that dwell there". Alot of time has been wasted upon Bahltek's riddles, but I think most people agree that he's referring to the Realm of Torment here.

Again, this seems to fit in my theory.

I claimed that the vizier went to Fahranur to acquire certain scrolls. Spells he needed to destroy Arah. Bahltek confirms that there are indeed scrolls in Fahranur.

I claimed that the spell the vizier used to destroy Orr came from Abaddon. Bahltek confirms that the scrolls in Fahranur relate to the Realm of Torment, and therefore to Abaddon.

Some of you may wonder why Bahltek is searching for the scrolls, when the vizieral already took them. Well, firstly, we don't know if the vizier took all of the scrolls. And secondly, perhaps Bahltek only heard stories of scrolls being hidden Fahranur and is in no way aware of the fact they are no longer there.