Curse

Konig Des Todes · Jun 07, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

I would like to start with that this idea is truly speculation. A simple thought I had earlier today. I have decided to separate this into three parts.

Part I: Speculated Look of Menzies.

Seeing how there is no image of Menzies, we obviously do not know what he looks like. However, through looking at his minions, we can make a guess. Why? Because most gods make their creations have similarities to them.

Ok, so with that known, here is a list of known and suspected minions of Menzies:
Known:
Shadow Army

Suspected:
The Darknesses and Greater Darkness
some Torment Demons (after Abaddon's fall)

This list is from wiki's page on Menzies. Also, I'll avoid using the Suspected minions as examples, as it is still not sure if they follow Menzies.

Ok, so looking at the Shadow Army, we obviously see that they are black and have spikes coming from their head, sholders, and back. As evident in these pictures of Abyssals, Shadow Rangers, and Shadow Mesmers. The Shadow Beasts don't have spikes, however they are still black.

So through looking at the Shadow Army, we can guess that Menzies is "dark" and most likely has spikes.

Part II: Look of Balthazar
Another way we can try to guess how Menzies looks is by looking at Balthazar. Why? Because they are (Half) Brothers. Brothers, even half-brothers, have to have similarities, as they share one of their parents, while the other parent is different.

So, looking at Zaishen, mainly the Priest of Balthazar(as the other Zaishen either have the generic Henchmen or Canthan Guard look), we can see what Balthazar's followers try too look like. Sometimes, cults try to make themselves look like what they follow, so in this case, Priests of Balthazar, the original (game-wise, not lore-wise) followers of Balthazar, would might try to look like Balthazar.

So by looking at Balthazar's Statues, Murals, and Followers, we can guess that he looks like a human in armor, which has spikes on the helm and shoulders, sometimes with a Skull Necklace and a Great Sword, among other additions. So we can guess that Menzies looks somewhat like this as well.

Part III: Theorized Connection Between Menzies and Balthazar
By just looking at the title of this part, the brash will say "well their half brothers, thats the connection." I know that they are claimed to be half brothers, but here is an idea I recently got:

What if Menzies and Balthazar were the same being, but they were different, and opposing, personalities.

To me, it makes sense. Here is how I got to this conclusion:

1) We never see an actual image of Menzies.

2) We know that Menzies has been in Balthazar's "shadow" the whole time. (I remember reading that somewhere, Looking for where, will post later if I find it.)

3) Menzies and Balthazar are at constant war, one would think a god would not have troubles with a *most likely* lesser entity.

4) The armor the Priests of Balthazar wear and the Shadow Army armor look similar. (In design:spikes on helm and shoulders)

5) Menzies is the God of Destruction, Balthazar is the God of War and Fire. War and Fire bring about Destruction, at least to an extent, so both War and Destruction can be viewed as the same thing.

The idea that they are split personalities works well with the possible look of Menzies as well. His Shadow Army are Dark with Spiky armor, Balthazar has somewhat spiky armor. So Menzies is just a "Dark" version of his "Half-Brother."

Edit: Thought I should include a post from an old forum that somewhat supports this idea, although not directly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

Again, not supporting directly, but Aeve Haleheart correlated a Priest of Balthazar to have similarities to the Shadow Army.

This idea is just an idea I had. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Icy The Mage · Jun 07, 2008, 11:06 PM // 23:06

You mean Schizophrenia? That'd be awesome!

Mortal Amongst Mere Gods · Jun 07, 2008, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Wow, this god that I worship, this demon I blame, conspired as one, exactly the same, it's exactly the same!

Heh, those of you that caught what that was, I couldn't resist.

On topic:So you're suggesting Balthazar is schizophrenic and needs a psychologist? Awesome, a good majority of people in GW worship a psycho. I'm not too sure about the physical similarities between Shadow figures and the priests. That's kinda iffy, but I can see it working.

Free Runner · Jun 08, 2008, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Whenever someone tries to get a image of Menzies they seem to depict him as the exact opposite of Balthazar. What i mean by this is how Balthazar is huge and fierce, the god of war whos statues have swords almost as big as him. Menzies on the other hand would be smaller, the more "hide in the shadows and plot" type.

Take Turei Ossa and Palawa Joko for example. Turei is the mighty champion who fights his way fearlessly through Jokos army whilst Palawa, much smaller than the towering Turei and much more skeletal, hides behind his minions. Whenever Menzies comes up people always think of it like this for Balthazar and Menzies.

Quote:

1) We never see an actual image of Menzies.

This seems more to be trying to continue his plot more. We never see the one who has had a few attempts at taking over. Hes always in the shadows plotting away.

Quote:

2) We know that Menzies has been in Balthazar's "shadow" the whole time. (I remember reading that somewhere, Looking for where, will post later if I find it.)

I think thats more of him always trying to takeover. Hes always plotting in Balthazars shadow.

Quote:

3) Menzies and Balthazar are at constant war, one would think a god would not have troubles with a *most likely* lesser entity.

Not exactly. The Underworld is an example . Dhumm who is supposed to be broken, has his forces litterally takeover one of the most important regions in The Mists and Grenth doesnt lift a finger. There are still unexplained reasons as to why the gods dont intervine in the fights. Perhaps they knew that Abaddon was the cause or perhaps they are tied up with somthing else, but one thing that is clear is they do not join in the fights at all.

Quote:

4) The armor the Priests of Balthazar wear and the Shadow Army armor look similar. (In design:spikes on helm and shoulders)

I would put that down to Anet just putting horns and spikes on everything.

While i cant discredit your theory i am just gonna say that their are many things that suggest Menzies is a different entity.

Kerwyn Nasilan · Jun 15, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

I like this too, the Idea that they are the same enity just every so long one comes out is awsome, also It could be they are equally powerful just we choose to worshipp the big B. I dont see why though, menzies has a huge army, balthazar has 5 rondom ppl on steriods running around with glowy blue light and some monks. I pick the guy with the army myself.

Enko · Jun 16, 2008, 02:12 AM // 02:12

for another look at what balthazar might look like, take a look at a dervish in the avatar of balthazar form.

Duncan Idaho · Jul 07, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

I'm impressed by the way you built your seducing theory. I would just like to ponder a point of detail.

Quote:

5) Menzies is the God of Destruction, Balthazar is the God of War and Fire. War and Fire bring about Destruction, at least to an extent, so both War and Destruction can be viewed as the same thing.

When speaking with NPC, dedicated to Balthazar warrios, such as Devona, one of their main characteristic is Honor. I do believe that Balthazar embodies the Honor side of battle, the fact that warriors fight for what they believe to be a goal worth to be defended.

On the opposite, Destruction means to me blind rage, only oriented to slaughter and ... well, destruction

But all in all, I find your interpretation of Menzes "walking in Bathazar's shadow" really interesting !

draxynnic · Jul 08, 2008, 06:51 AM // 06:51

One thing I've always thought in terms of the fighting between Balthazar and Menzies...

Balthazar is the god of war. As a result, he needs someone to fight - and the Gods have withdrawn from fighting in our world because they know how much havoc this can wreak. Thus, it might be that he deliberately holds back from delivering the deathblow on Menzies when he has the opportunity, so he has someone to fight.

That said, the idea of Menzies being a dark side of Balthazar is an intriguing one. We could even combine them and make it a deliberate choice - could Balthazar have deliberately split off his darker elements to create Menzies, at once purging himself of those elements and providing himself with a worthy opponent for eternity?

Konig Des Todes · Jul 08, 2008, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

One thing I've always thought in terms of the fighting between Balthazar and Menzies...

Balthazar is the god of war. As a result, he needs someone to fight - and the Gods have withdrawn from fighting in our world because they know how much havoc this can wreak. Thus, it might be that he deliberately holds back from delivering the deathblow on Menzies when he has the opportunity, so he has someone to fight.

That said, the idea of Menzies being a dark side of Balthazar is an intriguing one. We could even combine them and make it a deliberate choice - could Balthazar have deliberately split off his darker elements to create Menzies, at once purging himself of those elements and providing himself with a worthy opponent for eternity?

That is a good thought, and a interesting concept to consider. How I always pictured the players defeating Menzies if ANet ever added content for us to kill Dhuum and Menzies, and going along with this little theory I have, is that Balthazar finally found a way to remove Menzies from his mind, and has asked us to help finish him off.

Of course, that little part being wishful thinking, I do think that what you said is very possible, so both myself, and those who say they are two separate entities, can be right, they were one, but are now two. I do recall seeing such things happen in games, books and movies in the past, so it wouldn't be "new" either.

Mark Nevermiss · Jul 08, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

That is a good thought, and a interesting concept to consider. How I always pictured the players defeating Menzies if ANet ever added content for us to kill Dhuum and Menzies, and going along with this little theory I have, is that Balthazar finally found a way to remove Menzies from his mind, and has asked us to help finish him off.

Of course, that little part being wishful thinking, I do think that what you said is very possible, so both myself, and those who say they are two separate entities, can be right, they were one, but are now two. I do recall seeing such things happen in games, books and movies in the past, so it wouldn't be "new" either.

LOL the namek Kami Sama candidate splitting into Kami Sama and Piccolo, from DBZ :P

Konig Des Todes · Jul 08, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Nevermiss

LOL the namek Kami Sama candidate splitting into Kami Sama and Piccolo, from DBZ :P

I personally forgot about that, but there are more stories then just that which has someone splitting into two entities.

Gmr Leon · Jul 09, 2008, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Menzies is not actually the or a God of Destruction, rather, it's a Lord of Destruction. It's a common mistake due to the fact that Menzies is the half-brother of Balthazar.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 09, 2008, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Leon, can you cite where it says Lord of Destruction and not God of Destruction? Because all I was able to find said God of Destruction, for when it came to a title of Menzies (other then Balthazar's Half-Brother).

Free Runner · Jul 09, 2008, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Menzies is always reffered to as the Lord of Destruction in quests for the Fissure of Woe. Even (strangely considering) his wiki page calls him Lord rather than God (i dont think i've ever seen him reffered to as God)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miko The Unchained

You are the one who has been inflicting such casualties to the Shadow Army, aren't you? Listen to me: This "forest" provides foul materials that the shadow smiths use in forging weapons for the armies of the Lord of Destruction. The labor is all carried out by slaves. Soon they and their masters will appear. You can strike a crippling blow to Menzies and the Shadow Army by destroying the Shadow Overlords and allowing the slaves to escape."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastigan the Eternal

Balthazar has brought you here as a test. The Tower of Courage has fallen under the sway of the Shadow Army that serves Menzies. Balthazar will not brook this affront by his half-brother, the so-called Lord of Destruction. Destroy the Shadow Army forces in the Tower, and you shall earn the respect of the God of War.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Eternal Forgemaster

Menzies, Lord of Destruction, will not rest while we hold the Temple of War. There can be no doubt he will launch a new attack very soon. Balthazar will send new Temple Guards shortly. In the meantime, will you remain and fight the next wave of Shadow Army

Konig Des Todes · Jul 09, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Huh, maybe my memory is just foggy... well then, he's the Lord of Destruction, not the god, my bad.

Still doesn't change much, other than not being considered a God himself. Not reading up on Menzies after this thread must have dealt a blow to my memory

.

Accursed · Jul 11, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Off-Topic: Menzies doesn't need to be a God. He's powerful as he is right now (A Lord), so I believe.

On-Topic: I agree with you Azazel that Menzies is just a darker version of Balthazar. May even be a split personality.

Sai Sayre · Sep 01, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

the relationship between Balthazar and Menzies may be a draw from the Marvel universe, in which Loki is adopted by Odin and depicted as resentful and jealous of his foster brother Thor. in this depiction of Norse mythology, Loki, the weaker of the two brothers, is constantly in Thor's shadow. However, Loki is very adept at magic, and uses it to attempt to usurp his adopted father's throne.

So, in guild wars we have the half-brothers Balthazar and Menzies. I think Menzies is much like Loki, pulling strings from the shadows, attempting to take a kingdom that is not his to rule. I think that, although the idea of a god with multiple personalities is cool, Menzies is a being seperate from Balthazar, and that the reason there are no images of him is that he doesn't ever actually show himself.

Seraphim of Chaos · Sep 04, 2008, 01:41 AM // 01:41

The load screen guy looks like a male warrior with a 15k Ascalon helm.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 04, 2008, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Seraphim, that, my friend, is a Priest of Balthazar, the only "looks like" there is, is the horns, which actually do not match to Elite Charr Hide helm if you compare the two. In the thread that I pulled that picture from, someone tried to compare the two, but the bottom horns just didn't match in any way.